Born Again? The Grand Conspiracy?

Originally posted by jagdflieger

Genesis 1
1. In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
2. Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.
3. And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light.
4. God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness.
5. God called the light "day," and the darkness he called "night." And there was evening, and there was morning--the first day.

God created the heavens and the earth. A creator is separate from his creation. Also you can search the Bible for metaphorical refences to God as being the Potter and we are his pottery. This implies separate entities. Or do I suppose you would go to an art show and declare that the artist who made the art is the same entity as the art that was made.

You are fully immersed in the illusion. Do you seriously have no capacity for seeing symbolism or depth of spirituality? Do you not have the capacity to See beyond your 5 senses? All that you have stated is merely programs that were given to you by a book and those that profess to know the meaning of said book. There's nothing in your responses that lend me to believe you have thought anything that didn't come from someone else. You see only in literal physical terms. Can you see the spiritual? Then how can it be defined in physical terms? It can be defined in physical terms by symbolism and to bring Jesus back into it, parables. Was Jesus actually talking about a farmer in the sower story? No, of course not. You know this because you were told it was a parable. What if you weren't told that something was a parable? Would that automatically cut out the possibility that the meaning is deeper?

Jagd, as to the value of differences with respect to religions you seem to be missing the point (sugest you read the thread).

No Toltec, I see the point, you are missing the point.

I would again point out that all the prophets with respect to all religions presented the same argument, this being to love god is all his ways and to love each other.

No these prophets did not present the same argument. There are important differences between them all. Indeed all preached be doers of good deeds. But you fail to see the fundamental difference between Jesus Christ, Shakya Buddha, and Krishna.

The argument here seems not to be that Jesus was wrong but rather, that he confirmed the same thing all other religions state. It is also, that this fact has not been presented to the masses, as it should have been when it should have been discovered a rather long time ago.

Again you show a lack of understanding of the message of Grace as presented by Jesus Christ. It is NOT the same as presented by other religions. To say it is the same is to show blantant disregard for the meaning of the Gospel of Christ. Also the message of Grace was taught from day one.

The point being that Religion was used to allow conflict between cultures and that those, in a position to make a difference opted (and still do today) to treat those differences as more relevant than the similarities.

You overstate the role religion plays in conflict. There are many reasons for conflict, economic, cultural, etc. Also how would you explain the Kuruksetra War in the light of your thesis?

That these issues simply did not matter, in respect to what people would have been doing for the last 1000 years, had they known all cultures, had so much in common in respect to each of the above issues.

The differences are indeed important. But again you take a simplistic view of history. Indeed the rule of primigenture played more of a role in the Crusades than any commands from the Pope.

Jesus may have died for our sins but all those people died for nothing, lived their lives in constant pain for nothing and were falsely accused for nothing.

I have no idea just what you are trying to say here.

Rather, what I am saying is that in respect to how the masses have been treated no religion, with respect to its leadership. Has actually adhered to the message presented by any of the prophets

Again you are wrong. Your view of history is incorrect. Also this statement does not make sense unless you treat it as one sentence.

You are fully immersed in the illusion. Do you seriously have no capacity for seeing symbolism or depth of spirituality? Do you not have the capacity to See beyond your 5 senses? All that you have stated is merely programs that were given to you by a book and those that profess to know the meaning of said book. There's nothing in your responses that lend me to believe you have thought anything that didn't come from someone else. You see only in literal physical terms. Can you see the spiritual? Then how can it be defined in physical terms? It can be defined in physical terms by symbolism and to bring Jesus back into it, parables. Was Jesus actually talking about a farmer in the sower story? No, of course not. You know this because you were told it was a parable. What if you weren't told that something was a parable? Would that automatically cut out the possibility that the meaning is deeper?

Yes I understand the parables of the Bible and the metaphorical language. Indeed I have the capacity to see beyond the five senses most likely more than you can. God transcends the universe. God is separate from the universe. This axiomatically implies than I conceive of existences beyond my five senses. Indeed my God is not part of his Creation. He is separate from His Creation. You want to make the Creator part of the Creation. In essence you want to make God nothing more than a pile of dog poo on the street.

quoting jesus and no other...

and he said to them"all too well you reject the commandments of god, that you keep your tradition. for Moses said 'Honor your father and your mother; and he who cursed father or mother, let him be put to death.' "but you say, 'if a man says to his father or mother "whatever profits you might have recieved from me is corban(a gift to god), "then you no longer let him do anything for his father or mother, "making the word of god of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do...

this exemplifies your actions and shows through proverbial tongues that you have not known christ but an idol created for you to worship, much like the early Jews(not to get semitical), which actually viewed the lizard king as their god(would you like a quote?)

this exemplifies your actions and shows through proverbial tongues that you have not known christ but an idol created for you to worship, much like the early Jews(not to get semitical), which actually viewed the lizard king as their god(would you like a quote?)

Would you care to expand on this statement and give more information on what you mean by your quote from Mark?

the rites and practices that most people have been accostomed to practicing in the "church" have nothing to do with the christ body, furthermore it can be stated that these actions are blastphemy against his name...
love thy neighbor...
so i will not judge for that is not why i am here i am merely here to tell the "truth"...
in the name of Jeusus Christ i say be away from me minions of satan...

the rites and practices that most people have been accostomed to practicing in the "church" have nothing to do with the christ body, furthermore it can be stated that these actions are blastphemy against his name...
love thy neighbor...
so i will not judge for that is not why i am here i am merely here to tell the "truth"...
in the name of Jeusus Christ i say be away from me minions of satan...

What rites and practives to which you refer and by "church" do you mean a specific denomination or all Christian churches.

do you want to discuss truth or play games?...
games to waver my faith? no, i might wobble but i wont fall down...
the ball is in your court, what rites do YOU practice as a christian?...
and what CHURCH do you go to on sun-day or sat-ur-day...

Originally posted by jagdflieger

You are fully immersed in the illusion. Do you seriously have no capacity for seeing symbolism or depth of spirituality? Do you not have the capacity to See beyond your 5 senses? All that you have stated is merely programs that were given to you by a book and those that profess to know the meaning of said book. There's nothing in your responses that lend me to believe you have thought anything that didn't come from someone else. You see only in literal physical terms. Can you see the spiritual? Then how can it be defined in physical terms? It can be defined in physical terms by symbolism and to bring Jesus back into it, parables. Was Jesus actually talking about a farmer in the sower story? No, of course not. You know this because you were told it was a parable. What if you weren't told that something was a parable? Would that automatically cut out the possibility that the meaning is deeper?

Yes I understand the parables of the Bible and the metaphorical language. Indeed I have the capacity to see beyond the five senses most likely more than you can. God transcends the universe. God is separate from the universe. This axiomatically implies than I conceive of existences beyond my five senses. Indeed my God is not part of his Creation. He is separate from His Creation. You want to make the Creator part of the Creation. In essence you want to make God nothing more than a pile of dog poo on the street.

Oh, a pile of dog poo isn't sacred now? That pile of dog poo has the nutrients to foster life. And make God nothing more than? Huh? If God is all how could I possibly be making Him no more than something? That makes no sense.

Ok, you can conceive of something outside yourself. Do you believe you have a soul or are you just an animate piece of matter?

Really though, why must there always be arguments and why must people continue to think their thought limits are the limits period. Is the speed limit sign really the fastest you can go? Well, that's the equivalent. And yes, if you go faster you may be punished by an external authority. Hahahaaha. That's pretty darn funny. I'm not going to explain why it's funny either.

jagdflieger,
Your thought limits are very well defined. There is no further point in arguing since anything that doesn't fit in your thought limits couldn't possibly have any merit. Satan would be proud.

But the point of the post was not to argue about our thought limits concerning God. But hey, the post probably wouldn't have gone on this long if not for that eh?

do you want to discuss truth or play games?...
games to waver my faith? no, i might wobble but i wont fall down...
the ball is in your court, what rites do YOU practice as a christian?...
and what CHURCH do you go to on sun-day or sat-ur-day...

It seems to me that you are the game player. You mention blasmphemous practices but do not want to say what they are. You mention rites but do not say what they are. If you must know, the only rites I practice are study and prayer. Also it is none of your business which CHURCH I attend if any. If you have a point then make it.

thank you...
i will continue my destiny, peace be with you on yours...

jagdflieger,
Your thought limits are very well defined. There is no further point in arguing since anything that doesn't fit in your thought limits couldn't possibly have any merit. Satan would be proud.

At least I know that I cannot become God. You do not know what I really think. You have this idea that you can elevate yourself to God? It is you who has no idea who God is. Talk about being under the influence of Satan? That is the original sin. The belief that a finite creation can become God.

the ritualistic god you worship and say amen to in a hypnotic trance is a living being the old jewish called the "living god"...
and this "living god" has programmed you,your family, your church, and mostly everyone on this planet into believing that they are even above other men, a simple logic approach by fools, let me put it like this...
we are breeding dogs and i purchased on who is awa from all of his bretheren, he lives in my house and i feed him all he need to be fed, but this is no regular dog because he is capable of very great things, but when i take him for a walk he always barks at other dogs because he feels closer to me his owner than all that is...
does this scary you?...
aww, it shouldnt for fear is also a programmed feeling, does it make you jealous that even if this is a story you havent thought it up, it shouldn't because jealousy is a programmed emotion, does it make you love the mind of another that differs from your own? well that is the question...
in the end you will enivatiblely have to deal with such issues internally so you might want to start early...

the ritualistic god you worship and say amen to in a hypnotic trance is a living being the old jewish called the "living god"...

Well I followed that much but I do not worship in a hypnotic trance (and probably could not go into a "hypnotic trance" even if I wanted to). After that I am totally baffled by your statement and do not see your point except that you seem to believe that this "living god" has programmed us to think that everyone is better than anyone else.

Originally posted by jagdflieger

jagdflieger,
Your thought limits are very well defined. There is no further point in arguing since anything that doesn't fit in your thought limits couldn't possibly have any merit. Satan would be proud.

At least I know that I cannot become God. You do not know what I really think. You have this idea that you can elevate yourself to God? It is you who has no idea who God is. Talk about being under the influence of Satan? That is the original sin. The belief that a finite creation can become God.

The soul is finite? Granted the body is but when I speak about spirituality I don't talk about the body unless I mention it specifically.

No I'm not trying to elevate myself to God. I'm not trying to become God. I'm already a part of God. I'm sorry, I understand you are comfortable with your mental box but there's not much I can explain that would fit in that box. You see no matter what I say you will take it in and try to fit it into your preconceived ideas. If it doesn't fit then you spit it out. But before you do you have to transform it based on your limited thinking to in no way represent the concepts originally conveyed. Conceptual regurgitation. What you are telling me back is a distorted image of what I wrote.

And No, the original sin was the manifestation of the ego or the separateness of the spirit of man and God. The false belief that the answer is somewhere "out there" and we "fell" for it. And we are now paying the price and we have been for a long time. This is hell and the opposite is the opposite of separation. But, seeing that your God doesn't even exist anywhere near us then you will not believe this. And that's ok. It doesn't make any difference to me personally. I only offer that which I have. There are no restrictions or expectations.

Here's the underlining difference between our two views. You believe God is finite and I believe God is infinite.

Here's the underlining difference between our two views. You believe God is finite and I believe God is infinite.

But, seeing that your God doesn't even exist anywhere near us then you will not believe this

You purposely misquote me with malice of forethought. I never said God was finite. I said that God is separate from His Creation. Here you have the problem I know that God is separate from the Creation but is omnipresent in His Creation. You would realize that if you had properly read the Bible. Again you misquote me with malice of forethought. It is your conceptualization that puts limits on God. Indeed, the God of the Bible is separate from the Creation but is still omnipresent. You are the one who cannot conceive of a God who can be separate from the Creation and yet still be ominpresent in the Creation. You conception of God must make God a part of the Creation.

[Edited on 20-10-2003 by jagdflieger]

if the father is omnipresent(which i know he is) then his presence is within all of creation down to the very last molecule and quantum particle you can not register...

henceforth the father lies within us, them, it, and every where in between...
leading to uivia's comment about him being in some far away location...

yet if you cannot fathom such then maybe you are a little judgmental on gods creations, which are an aspect of him, which is an aspect of yourself...

the father in the end lies within us, call it the holy spirit if youd like, but with us if you see...

No God is separate from the Creation but is omnipresent. The idea that there is a Creator and a Creation means that they are separate entities. If you understood the concepts of N-dimensional geometry, you could understand how God can be separate from the Creation and yet be omnipresent in the Creation.

how do you expect to use something created by man to justify the singularity of the all that is?...
this is really becoming illogical for me to continue posting with you, for you enjoy listening to what you are told vs. finding your way within the wilderness...
a question for you though...
if one was in the wilderness and found a way through to the other side of the brush and on that other side was an eternal paradise, do you think you would remember to send a note in that wilderness a note for whoever finds it a way for them to walk in the same path?...
or would you with a "reptilian" brain hoard all there is to the "other side" and disuade others from ever finding their way to the other side?...

if one was in the wilderness and found a way through to the other side of the brush and on that other side was an eternal paradise, do you think you would remember to send a note in that wilderness a note for whoever finds it a way for them to walk in the same path?...

Well what do you think the ministry of Jesus Christ was all about? The message was how to get to that paradise you seek. As for N-dimensional geometry, it is a mathematical description of the physical space created by God just as physics is the discovery of the rules made by God to control this universe. Also what is this nonsense about a "reptilian" brain?