U.S. to free 141 terror suspect from Gitmo

Originally posted by Jakomo

They cannot be held according to ANY law. They are not illegal combatants, they are Prisoners of War.

How can they be pows when no nation sent them in the first place without the sanction of the govt. Not to mention they do not wear any uniforms to represent of that nation. They served themselves, nor are they the signator of the Geneva convention.

deltaboy:

How can they be pows when no nation sent them in the first place without the sanction of the govt. Not to mention they do not wear any uniforms to represent of that nation.

Says who? Are they processed through legal means before they are taken to Gitmo? Or are they just incarcerated? Trusting that the military is doing everything on the up and up.

If any of the pro-torture people on this thread can give ONE example of good intelligence coming out of torture, JUST ONE, I'm all ears.

Doubt it, though.

Torture is indefensible. All that's happening is you're turning people against the US, whether they're the people picked up in the wrong place at the wrong time (if the US had ANYTHING real on them, do you think they'd be letting them go?), or whether, like me, they're in the wider world thinking, to what savagery has the US government stooped.

Originally posted by rich23
If any of the pro-torture people on this thread can give ONE example of good intelligence coming out of torture, JUST ONE, I'm all ears.

Doubt it, though.

How can you sit there and ASSume becasue some of us here share a different viewpoint as yourself that we would be pro torture? You seem to make a lot of these silly ASSumptions, such as the fact that no intel is coming out of these detention facilities. Do you work at any of these camps? I dont, so how am I supposed to know if anything is. I doubt the army will publish intellingence findings in the news. Wouldnt be real smart.

Luda:

You seem to make a lot of these silly ASSumptions, such as the fact that no intel is coming out of these detention facilities. Do you work at any of these camps? I dont, so how am I supposed to know if anything is. I doubt the army will publish intellingence findings in the news

The INSTANT they got one single thing they could use, they would be proclaimingit from the top of every mountain.

“WE HAVE GOOD INTELLIGENCE!!!!!”

And they would parade it in front of the media and they would try desperately to show that anything they have been doing has worked. They would be happy to show the public that the millions of taxpayer dollars have done anything, instead of their standard “we have intercepted chatter”.

Nice try though.

Torture doesn’t work. Ask a torturer or a torturee. Ask John McCain.

Originally posted by Jakomo
The INSTANT they got one single thing they could use, they would be proclaimingit from the top of every mountain.

“WE HAVE GOOD INTELLIGENCE!!!!!”

And they would parade it in front of the media and they would try desperately to show that anything they have been doing has worked. They would be happy to show the public that the millions of taxpayer dollars have done anything, instead of their standard “we have intercepted chatter”.

Nice try though.

Torture doesn’t work. Ask a torturer or a torturee. Ask John McCain.

Fair enough. But who are you to say the intelligence isnt good, you dont know any better than I no? Neither of us are insiders, who have actual experieve in these camps. You cant just discount the evidence without proof of your own. Does stress position, sleep and sensory deprivation qualify as torture in your opinion? I just want to know to try and get on the same page and see where you stand as far as what you percieve as torture. I do agree torture doesnt work, but you would be surprised what a few days of sleep deprivation can do to you. I do know this firsthand as I have stayed up for 2 straight days working on a project, which was my fault as I am a procrastinator at times. It definately dulls your awareness drastically, and I've heard it can induce hallucination, maybe enough to get you to divulge important intel. Anyhow, you do make a good argument but I just cant believe it to be that simple.

ludachris:

Does stress position, sleep and sensory deprivation qualify as torture in your opinion?

I would say yes. Stress position? How about I make you kneel on a metal bar for 10 hours while I have a guard behind you ready to crack you in the skull the instant you shift position? Torture.

Anything that causes you such physical discomfort as to force you to "talk" is torture, to me. Psychological torture? Well, that's always hand-in-hand with the physical.

And it's unreliable. Is the person just talking to get away from the pain? How do you know? It's also totally inadmissible legally, so why even bother?

Different people react to pain in different ways, I can't see how it would work unless you can 100% tell if someone is being truthful. Snap their fingers and they might decide to tell you what you want to hear in order to stop the pain.

Does taking Koran from his cell, make him watch porn videos and hire a stripper considered torture? Not to mention the stripper eating pork while dancing?

deltaboy: Would strapping you down and forcing you to watch child porn for 24 hours straight while you are in prison be considered torture to you? Snuff films? Rape/murder?

I would say it's highly subjective, but if it's something that you find particularly disturbing, then yeah, maybe so.

Originally posted by Jakomo
ludachris:

Does stress position, sleep and sensory deprivation qualify as torture in your opinion?

I would say yes. Stress position? How about I make you kneel on a metal bar for 10 hours while I have a guard behind you ready to crack you in the skull the instant you shift position? Torture.

Wheres your proof they crack them in the skull if they move. I would believe a little shaking would be tollerated, and if they fall, leave em. No harm no foul, these guys will be in great shape when they get out of Camp Delta, I will say that. Physically and mentally exhausting these men to get info is a more reliable way than beating it out of them so I'm all for it. Mentally breaking someone is a lot tougher than breaking them physically, no?

Originally posted by ludaChris
No harm no foul, these guys will be in great shape when they get out of Camp Delta, I will say that.

Oh yeah!
I totally agree here. You toughen them up real good. If they took this abuse for 4 years they can take anything you throw toward them.

Rock solid Allah worshiper with a chip on his shoulder. Excellent job.

Originally posted by yanchek

Originally posted by ludaChris
No harm no foul, these guys will be in great shape when they get out of Camp Delta, I will say that.

Oh yeah!
I totally agree here. You toughen them up real good. If they took this abuse for 4 years they can take anything you throw toward them.

Rock solid Allah worshiper with a chip on his shoulder. Excellent job.

Love the sarcasm, but youre missing my point. Maybe I should be more clear. The point is, is that causeing physical exhaustion does not qualify as torture. But it does mess with their heads. Exhaustion and stress can go a long way in getting intel from an enemy combatant. Furthermore, my personal belief is that is that this isnt torture. As I've said before in this thread, playing footbal in highschool, when we had 2 a days in the mid 90's to 100 degree heat was much tougher than what these guys deal with. Not to mention we were running, hitting each other, doing up-downs, push ups, sit ups, ladders, and other drills to get us in shape for the season. For around 6 hours a day during the summer(and in regular practices during the season) we were taking punishment, the heat of summer, and physical exhaustion, I lived through that. Would you call those practices torture too? We did much more than standing in a stress postion all day. They were hell to me but I lived.

[edit on 5/4/2006 by ludaChris]

Dude....volunteering for football practice and being plucked from home, taken away from family, flown across the globe, being treated like a lesser life form, and just dealing with the uncertainty of what tomorrow holds are completely different things. You just lost a lot of credibility with that comment, bro. I understand what you are trying to say, but the analogy really showed your age kid. There is no comparison there. If these guys are firing at our kids...we shoot back. We don't herd them up without any trials. We don't sic dogs on em. We don't strip them naked. We don't wipe our asses with their holy book. We don't beat them. "Sleeping on floors of cages starts to [mess] with your brain" by itself. Add that to all the stuff that is torture, isn't torture, whatever, and you have a national embarassment. This will be a dark scar should it ever make our history books. You will be embarassed that you defended that position in 20 years, I promise.


You don't need a degree in psychology to understand how things like this are only fuel on a worldwide fire. And why don't fires go out with gasoline, children?

Luda:

Maybe I should be more clear. The point is, is that causeing physical exhaustion does not qualify as torture.

Well, international law and common decency disagree with you. It is not physical exhaustion that it is causing, it's physical pain or discomfort.

Exhaustion and stress can go a long way in getting intel from an enemy combatant. Furthermore, my personal belief is that is that this isnt torture.

Um, exhaustion and stress can help you get solid information from a person? ? Confuse and befuddle them and somehow they will have the mental wherewithal to answer your questions accurately? Huh? How is that in any way reliable info?

“Yeah, well he pretty much has no idea where he is, or even who he is, or anything else, really. But he gave us some great intel on the intricacies of his plan.”

? Makes no sense to me at all, but I’ve never tortured anyone. (Not that I think you have, I’m just saying, it seems like the opposite of what one would want)

As I've said before in this thread, playing footbal in highschool, when we had 2 a days in the mid 90's to 100 degree heat was much tougher than what these guys deal with. … For around 6 hours a day during the summer(and in regular practices during the season) we were taking punishment, the heat of summer, and physical exhaustion, I lived through that. Would you call those practices torture too? We did much more than standing in a stress postion all day. They were hell to me but I lived.

Yes, and then afterwards you went home and Mommy cooked you a good meal and you hung out with your friends. Good times.

How about instead of running around and playing football you were bound hand and foot and left to lie in an increasingly excruciating position?

How about afterwards you were locked in an outdoor cage, with nothing at all to occupy your mind (except a copy of the Bible), and this happened every day for 3 years.

Do you honestly believe that you went through more hardship in high school football practice than what happens in a military detention facility away from prying eyes?

Oh, and as to your question about how do I know they smack people with rifles-butts to stay kneeling on that iron bar --- wtf do you think they do? If they are FORCED to do something, they’re not swayed with words.

“No, no, Abdullah, you need to stay kneeling on that bar for four more hours, so no cheating, okay buddy? I don’t want to have to use more harsh words on you.”

Um, yyyeah.