The handicapped and mentally ill.

I'm not a very religious person, but this question popped into my mind as it so often has. I am wondering what the religious think regarding people with handicaps, such as extreme mental disability or just mental illness, have with regards to spirituality? Also, what about people who are born normal, but later recieve damage to their bodies so as to become very handicapped, such as in extremely impaired mentality. Do they have souls and what-not.

I've read before that at least one culture that believes in reincarnation feels that the handicapped are at the end of their physical life cycle and have achieved the amount of suffering required to reach pure spiritual form.

I've also read that some people believe that the handicapped have souls, but since their bodies are so messed up, they are not in perfect tune with regards to living.

Also, I want to ask, if you do think the handicapped have souls, should they be allowed to live out their lives in what seems like either an extremely impaired or painful existence? If reincarnation exists, wouldn't it just be better to end their lives and allow a restart?

I welcome all opinions as this is one issue regarding spirituality that I am most perplexed about.

[Edited on 15-10-2003 by heelstone]

Handicapped people should recieve the same amount of kindness, dignity, and respect as any other person. They still have a soul. God takes all in account (whether we are mentally ill or physically handied etc.) when He judges us.

Also, I want to ask, if you do think the handicapped have souls, should they be allowed to live out their lives in what seems like either an extremely impaired or painful existence? If reincarnation exists, wouldn't it just be better to end their lives and allow a restart?

Of course they have "souls"... (of course, I believe each living thing has a "soul"(for lack of a better word) of sorts). Should they be allowed to live? I'd say that's their choice... And the choice is dependent on their beliefs and wishes, not on those of another...

Of course they have "souls"... (of course, I believe each living thing has a "soul"(for lack of a better word) of sorts). Should they be allowed to live? I'd say that's their choice... And the choice is dependent on their beliefs and wishes, not on those of another... Well see, thats a problem. Many handicapped people cannot make decisions either because they are physically unable to, or because their government decides they cannot because they are of legally determined unfit mind.

[Edited on 15-10-2003 by heelstone]

Oh, they've made a choice.... The choice may not be apparent to the outside world...but they've made the choice for themselves...

When it gets as bad as you're saying though, when they are unable to communicate with the outside world, then obviously, at that point, it's up to others to make those decisions... Personally, I think the current guidelines for this, are about the best we can hope for... You didn't specify the severity of handicap before...

Not to seem snarky, Heelstone, but ... perhaps you should go work with or befriend some handicapped people or mentally ill people. You seem to think of them in rather limited terms.

I know one handicapped man who has been blind since birth. He edits a national scholarly magazine for science fiction and fantasy (Niekas), married, raised children, and holds down a job. I knew several people with spina bifida who were in wheelchairs and held down jobs, one deaf programmer (two, actually)... and so forth. I have known profoundly handicapped people as well.

And there are people here on this board who have a diagnosis of profound depression, schizophrenia, or bipolar depression (all mental illnesses) but are controlled by meds. I'm sure they'll speak out for themselves and for family members.

I think your curiosity would be better satisfied if you got to know these people. We could discuss all day long, but actually meeting a variety of them would probably provide you a better answer.



(and the non-Christians of course believe that they have souls and worth.)

[Edited on 15-10-2003 by Byrd]

Perhaps I should clarify. Actually I thought I did clarify. I was making a point of talking about mental impairedness. After all, people of sound mind can and do make their own decisions regardless of their physical handicaps. I completely understand that. However, those with mental handicaps have it a bit different on this planet.

[Edited on 15-10-2003 by heelstone]

In many cases...these people of which you are referring to...are perfectly capable in their own minds...they simply have trouble when trying to express those thoughts (the mouth doesn't respond right, etc.) Even in other cases though...just because all cyllinders aren't firing, is no reason to assume the person wishes to cease to be. If someone really wants to kill themselves...they will usually succeed, regardless of retardation. However, there is a point when it is humane to put someone out of their misery.... This is a point best decided by the person's loved ones (based on information from the doctor, as the person can't speak for themselves). If they really have a connection to the person...they'll realize what that person wants, regardless of overt communication...for the communication of the 5 senses, isn't the only method we talk to each other...

Originally posted by heelstone
I was making a point of talking about mental impairedness. After all, people of sound mind can and do make their own decisions regardless of their physical handicaps.

I was also making the same point... people who are schizophrenic or depressed ARE mentally impaired. Without medication, some of them are unable to function. Many are incoherent and incapable of taking care of themselves without medication.

We could also add Alzheimer's patients there... which brings up several difficult questions for the Christian (such as, if you convert them when they are impaired by Alzheimers, is it a true conversion and do they go to heaven? Does God decide to forgive everyone who becomes mentally impaired, even if they were athiest during their lives (remember that no matter how horrible and brutal a person is, if they repent on their deathbed and accept Jesus/God, then they get a free ticket to heaven according to the Christian beliefs.)

As I said, the Pagans and other religions have it covered: All living things have some sort of spiritual manifestation (soul) -- including animals.

[Edited on 15-10-2003 by Byrd]

Well, I don't suggest getting defensive over how I typed my thoughts into this thread. I didn't exactly spew anything ignorant out of my fingers, or so I thought.

[Edited on 15-10-2003 by heelstone]

Of course one would think that the handicapped or mentally ill
would also be treated fairly with dignity and respect as far as one
of faith could imagine or try, the joyous nature of God. One would think that free will would basically have to do with a person's level
of awareness in regards to their actions no less.

Originally posted by Cearbhall
Handicapped people should recieve the same amount of kindness, dignity, and respect as any other person. They still have a soul. God takes all in account (whether we are mentally ill or physically handied etc.) when He judges us.

Well said!
and agree....we are all human!
helen....

Helen,
Well thank you of your kind words. I believe Jesus is in everyone no matter how minute it is.

Society itself is more of an impairment than anything else,short of death itself.
Helpless Sheeples

Originally posted by heelstone
I've also read that some people believe that the handicapped have souls, but since their bodies are so messed up, they are not in perfect tune with regards to living.

If I have a soul, then the handicapped have souls as well. As for bodies being so messed up, it's been my understanding that a body is simply a shell that HOLDS the soul. Perfect? NO ONE is perfect. I have to agree with UnBaLaNcEd, we're all defective in one form or another.

Yesterday, I was shopping in Wallymart and this mentally impaired man followed me from the jewelry section (I was just walking by, folks..lol) to the pet section. He kept mumbling things to me, staring and would take a step anytime that I'd take a step. I was a little disturbed simply because this wasn't an everyday occurrence. I'm sure some women would have called security immediately, but I felt he was just interested and curious about me. He seemed a bit timid, so I just kept quiet. Needless to say, he went his way and I went mine. I giggled a bit after walking away, not because I was ridiculing him, but because I was a little flattered. Don't ask me why I shared this experience with you all.

So do most of you think, if you have a soul, you should have the right to life? If science and technology (which some religious people criticize) can save a life, than do you think it should be saved no matter of the severity of that person's disability (wether it be mental or physical)? I can't help but wonder if "God's" plan includes us saving people with new technology who would otherwise die. I mean, until recently, many of the severally impaired people would not have made it and I wonder how that fits into religion and the "distribution" of "souls". Is God rooting for us to save as many lives as possible, by whatever means necessary...maybe as a way to show our love for ALL his creations? Any ideas?



-JAH

Alright, another question (please continue to add your opinions on the earlier questions though). This one is for Christians.

If a very mentally handicapped person is incapable of understanding and accepting Jesus as their lord and savior, do they go to Hell? Does a baptism save them without their need to understand what is going on?

If a very mentally handicapped person is incapable of understanding and accepting Jesus as their lord and savior, do they go to Hell? Does a baptism save them without their need to understand what is going on?

Interesting question... Though not a Christian, I can say that a person (according to the Bible), who does not accept Jesus in their heart, would be damned. However, I'd think that most modern Christians would say that God knows what's in the person's heart, even if the person doesn't know it themselves...and that that would be the determining factor....

Put another way, would a tribesman, in the middle of nowhere, who has never heard of Jesus, go to Hell for not accepting Jesus? Again, going by the book, you'd have to argue yes...he'd go to Hell, but most modern Christians would forgive the ignorance....(doubtful that the God of the Old Testament would though, hehe...)

Heel,

"If a very mentally handicapped person is incapable of understanding and accepting Jesus as their lord and savior, do they go to Hell?"

No they would not go to Hell. God is understanding. If they can't comprehend or understand, how can they be guilty? Trust in God's mercy.

You mean like the mercy he showed the babies of Egypt during the 10 plagues? Sorry, couldn't resist it....