End of times, do you believe it?

Please provide verses where Israel is named specifically and we need to substitute the church for Israel

Romans 2:28-29, Romans 9:6-8, and Galations 5:15-16 point to this change of the terminology of Jews and "Israel of God" being spiritual Jews and spiritual Israel. It seems pretty clear to me. From this point on, then references to Jews and Israel in the "latter days" refers to the Gentile church.

The second concept in the reference set is the naming of prophecies naming Ephraim, which means "the fulness of nations", wherease Manasseh (meaning "make to forget my father's house") represents the Jews.

Some are expecting some third temple in Jerusalem for end times stuff to happen. Acts 17:24 specifies that the Lord no longer dwells in temples made with hands. Romans 12:1 talks about the sacrifice of the lives of believers as the sacrifice acceptable to the Lord now under our covenant.
1 Cor 3:16 refers to the believer's body as the temple of God in which the sacrifice occurs now. There may be sacrifices in Jerusalem now, but they are not acceptable any longer to the Lord.

However, In Acts 15:16-17, God talks about building the Tabernacle (note, temporary building like corporate human body, not temple) of David that a Residue (Remnant) of men (Jews) may seek after the Lord. When the time of the Gentiles is over (soon), God will return to the Jews to collect the remnant of the elect from that nation as well.



[edit on 12-4-2006 by managerie]

Originally posted by managerie

Please provide verses where Israel is named specifically and we need to substitute the church for Israel

Romans 2:28-29, Romans 9:6-8, and Galations 5:15-16 point to this change of the terminology of Jews and "Israel of God" being spiritual Jews and spiritual Israel. It seems pretty clear to me. From this point on, then references to Jews and Israel in the "latter days" refers to the Gentile church.

Romans is just talking about the Gentiles being receivers of the promise.
I'm missing the point on Galations 5?

I saw where you were accepting all challengers on pre, post trib. I'm opening a thread to accept your challenge on BTS. Hope to see you there.

Romans 2:28-29, Romans 9:6-8, and Galations 5:15-16 point to this change of the terminology of Jews and "Israel of God" being spiritual Jews and spiritual Israel. It seems pretty clear to me. From this point on, then references to Jews and Israel in the "latter days" refers to the Gentile church.

Romans is just talking about the Gentiles being receivers of the promise.
I'm missing the point on Galations 5?

Romans 2:28-29:
A man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. 29No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man's praise is not from men, but from God.

That is pretty specific that the criteria of a Jew, a member of Israel, the corporate jewish people now have a new criteria of a Jew being one inwardly as a believer in Jesus, not physically.

Romans 9:6-8

It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children. On the contrary, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned."[a] 8In other words, it is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring.

The criterion here is no longer physical Israel again, but rather as a believers through faith in the promises regardless of nationality.

Galations 6:15-16 (sorry, I mistated Galations 5 earlier)

Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything; what counts is a new creation. 16Peace and mercy to all who follow this rule, even to the Israel of God.

Also, another reference to the physical Jew not mattering in the new covenant.

OK, I usually don't surf BTS, but I'll look there for the questions.

Also, I did not write my earlier post about symbolism. What I was trying to say was that others did not invent symbolism to try to explain Israel, but rather that the scriptures point to the concept of hidden meaning throughout. That threw you off in answering what I was saying. sorry about that.

Also, I don't do this to be right or pump myself up. I am concerned that people's lives and souls will be lost of they do not understand what is about to happen properly so that they can prepare spiritually with the Lord. That is my only concern and I have seen a lot of error out there.

Originally posted by PaRaSiTe
lets not forget the bible says the end times start when israel becomes a nation again "the prophecy of dry bones?". That happened in may 14 1948 the next thing that is about to happen is the war of ezekiel. Is it a coincidence that iran is being helped so much by russia as we speak. When the bible talks about the hook in gog and magogs jaw he is talking about russia attacking israel because they are dragged into the conflict. I believe the next thing that is gonna happen is israel with our without our help will attack iran and take out their nuclear capabilities to only be counter attacked by iran and russia and the largest terrorist radical islamic coalition that world has ever seen. The supernatural part will finally come because the bible says he will destroy this demonic army . Three things will happen and i will put them in order:
1 a great earthquake in the middle east that will hit the heart of this attacking force.
2 the largest friendly fire incident to ever hit a army "same as what happened in the old testament were israels enemies attacked and killed each other"
3 fire and brimstone "meteor shower to rain down on the army and cities and nations that support this army"
As for as the temple goes yes the antichrist has to have a temple to desecrate but it could be the antichrist with his fake world peace that allow the jews to construct it in the first place.

all endtimes prophecy is fullfilled by god thru his chosen people the jews.
God will also judge the nations on how the treated the jews " I will bless those that bless you and curse those that curse you" This is why the united states has been the strongest nation on the earth is because we have supported israel. When we started making the road map of peace that just divides the land to the arabs is when the US started down the road of moral decay and continues down that path now. Christians i call to you pray for peace and safety to the children of israel and bless them for how god judges you will depend on how you treat them. Lets not forget there would be no christianity at all if it not were the jews. The jews lack of believing jesus as the messiah is why christians exist now. That is why jesus says the salvation will not come to the them "jews" untill the fullness of the gentiles "christian non jews" .

i think this type of thinking is why we are in this pickle in the first place!

W is trying to make these "so called" prophecies come true.

what we need to do is dethrone the demagogue being GWB and cast out the church of god out of goverment!

then we can start backing out of this mess that these god fearing neocons have got us into!

.....of course this is my opinion, i could be wrong!



[edit on 13-4-2006 by HereticHulk]

SUN MATRIX you are right on point brother. The book of romans especially the first 11 chapters is paul talking about the people of israel and were they fit in the plan. Two points can be made upon reading the book of Romans. They are as follows:

1 God has allowed the jews to be blinded spiritually to jesus christ being the true messiah for our benefit. We have current favor and blessings from the father because the jews are blinded to the truth. The remnant are gonna be the 144000 jews who god will supernatuurally reveal to them the identity of jesus christ and they will spread the gospel.

2 Paul says specifically not to boast and be proud of our current favor with god because of the blindness the jews currently have now. God is allowing this to happen for our benefit that is why it says untill the fullness of the gentiles comes in. He means when the gentiles "current christians non jews" have reached the point of everyone who will make a choice about jesus christ have made it and he has showed grace and patience on us then he will take the spiritual blindness away from the jews and they "the remnant will thru devine revealation know the true identity of jesus christ.
do not think since we are grafted in we are more important then the roots. for the grafter can just as easilly cast us down. God chooses to show us grace and chooses to have the jews blinded to his son. we should not think otherwise

Does the pot ask the potter whos hands fashioned it why he made it or what he chooses to make it into? Bless the jews dont say we have taken their place in covenant. I will bless those that bless you and curse those that curse you Gods word is forever and ever it doesnt change he has no contingency plan.

the next thing that is about to happen is the war of ezekiel. Is it a coincidence that iran is being helped so much by russia as we speak. When the bible talks about the hook in gog and magogs jaw he is talking about russia attacking israel because they are dragged into the conflict. I believe the next thing that is gonna happen is israel with our without our help will attack iran and take out their nuclear capabilities to only be counter attacked by iran and russia and the largest terrorist radical islamic coalition that world has ever seen.

I believe that Ezekiel 38,39 will not happen until after the peace treaty.

I agree that Russia is in bed with Iran, but I believe that this event is the Red Horse of Revelation, and will occur after Ainti Christ has come to power.

Originally posted by Sun Matrix

the next thing that is about to happen is the war of ezekiel. Is it a coincidence that iran is being helped so much by russia as we speak. When the bible talks about the hook in gog and magogs jaw he is talking about russia attacking israel because they are dragged into the conflict. I believe the next thing that is gonna happen is israel with our without our help will attack iran and take out their nuclear capabilities to only be counter attacked by iran and russia and the largest terrorist radical islamic coalition that world has ever seen.

I believe that Ezekiel 38,39 will not happen until after the peace treaty.

I agree that Russia is in bed with Iran, but I believe that this event is the Red Horse of Revelation, and will occur after Ainti Christ has come to power.

Hi Folks, I have been reviewing this in the word as well.

I think the Ezekiel 38-39 war is after the tribulation in the year long Day of the Lord.

We are headed into the Daniel 8:1-9 replay war (see Also Jeremiah 25 and 27.

The verses that pertain to the day of the Lord are:

At the end of the tribulation, the sun will be darkened and the moon also.
Then we have the one year day of the Lord which includes Armageddon and other battles. The passages that I see dealing with the day of the Lord are: Acts 2:20, 2 Pet 3:10, Joel 2: 10,31, Mark 13:24, Mt 24:29, Zech 14, Isa 34:8, Ezekiel 38-39, Isa 61:2, Psalm 149, Lk 21: 20-27, Isa 13:10, Jeremiah 50-51, Rev 16:14 (1st battle) to Rev 19 (last battle), Jude 14-15.
The overall war of the day of hte Lord is not Armageddon. That is just one battle. The war is called the "war of the great day of God" (Rev 16:14).

Here are a few reasons why the Ezekiel 38-39 war seems to me to be after the tribulation in the Day of the Lord:

The great shaking is an incredible earthquake references in Ezekiel 38:19, Revelation 16, Joel 2:10, Zech 14. Same reference to an incredible world wide earthquake in which all mountains and walls fall (Eze 38:20). There would not be a tribulation if that happened.

Also, Ezekiel 39:7 God says He will not suffer His name to be profaned anymore. There wouldn't be a tribulation if that happened and Revelation and other books talk about how the damned of the earth blaspheme God in their judgment.

The Great Sacrifice of Ezekiel 39:17 is also referenced in Zech 14:12 and Revelation 19:17-18 and occurs after the Lord returns bodily at the end of the year (Isa 34:8) of wrath and destroys all the enemy.

No, we are about to replay Daniel 8:1-9 (notice that vs 10 on show the abomination of desolation original fulfillment soon after this war) against Elam (Iran).

The battles in the middle east now are a second and greater fulfillment of this. In Daniel 8, there is a he-goat that comes against Elam (Iran) that is pushing West (helping insurgents in Iraq) and the he-goat comes across the whole world (Greece was pretty close by, USA is 1/2 way around world) with speed never touching the ground (Alexander the great had no navy - this is talking about sea and air power). Notice that right after this battle in Daniel 8 in which Iran cannot stand against the "he-goat" the old testament abomination of desolation is setup which is a type and shadow of the abomination of desolation (Christians taking the mark) in the end times. The original fulfillment of the last part of Daniel 8 was Antiochus Epiphanes in about 165BC whjo sacrificed a pig on the alter of Jerusalem (nice guy). But notice that it talks about the removal of the contrinual burnt offering. That is the believers living sacrifice of Romans 12:1 - not the single sacrifices of the Old testament. So there are clues about the timing.

In Daniel 4, and Jeremiah 25, 27 we see the US as the King of Babylon in latter days fulfillment being the head of the one world government, the hammer of the world for these 7 years (was 70, now 7 this time) and then utterly destroyed in the day of the Lord. God is ordaining that as you can see in Jeremiah. The US will take on the character of a beast, like Nebuchadnezzar, and eat grass (destroy people, 1Pet 1:24, Isa 40:6 all flesh is as grass). We can see beginnings of that now. The revival of the Roman Empire has the US at the head, but few will see this for quite a while.

It's just not possible, is it? And we sit and wonder at the aggression and the attacking of countries and the domination of foreign lands. It is God in His sovereignty who is bring this about with the final result of testing the believers and judging the world at the end. It has always been that way.

Here is another interesting hint at the US as Rome, part II, the sequel. In Luke 13:4-5, the tower of Siloam falls during Rome part I and 18 (6+6+6) people are killed. We just had two towers fall, the twin towers of the world trade center fall 5 years ago.

Isaiah 30:25-26 talk about the great slaughter in the days that the towers fall (twin towers?) and then the light of the moon (moon glory 1 Cor 15:40, 2Cor 3:18) shall be seven fold (take on 7 spirits of God as man-child Rev 12:1-6 annointed) as the light of seven days (years) in the day that Jehovah bindeth up the hurt of his people (Hosea 6:1-3 after two days, Luke 10 parable of Good samaritan binds up wounds, etc).

For those who wonder, sounds like a democrat.. I'm actually a registered republican. However, even when Joshua met the pre-incarnate Christ in Joshua 5:13-14, he asked Christ if He was for them or against them (sound familiar, George Bush - you're either for us or against us... anyway) Jesus replies, "Neither, but as Prince of the Host of Jehovah am I now come. The correct question will not be whether Jesus is for the US or against it. The question will be who is on Jesus side. He represents the interests of man, not the interests of any mere political system. He is and will use the US as a vessel of dishonor (Romans 9) to accomplish His purposes in this day. As an ambassador of Christ (2 Cor 5:20), I must first and foremost represent His interests.


[edit on 14-4-2006 by managerie]

[edit on 14-4-2006 by managerie]

We are headed into the Daniel 8:1-9 replay war (see Also Jeremiah 25 and 27.

Actually, you are currently very likely witnessing the fulfillment of Jeremiah 50 and 51.

In Daniel 4 , and Jeremiah 25, 27 we see the US as the King of Babylon in latter days fulfillment being the head of the one world government

Daniel 4 is about Nebuchadnezzar, not the U.S., Managerie. Try just reading what it say instead of reading something into it.

the hammer of the world

The U.S. is not the hammer of the whole world. That would be Babylon, the actual land of the Chaldeans.

Originally posted by Sun Matrix

We are headed into the Daniel 8:1-9 replay war (see Also Jeremiah 25 and 27.

Actually, you are currently very likely witnessing the fulfillment of Jeremiah 50 and 51.

In Daniel 4 , and Jeremiah 25, 27 we see the US as the King of Babylon in latter days fulfillment being the head of the one world government

Daniel 4 is about Nebuchadnezzar, not the U.S., Managerie. Try just reading what it say instead of reading something into it.

the hammer of the world

The U.S. is not the hammer of the whole world. That would be Babylon, the actual land of the Chaldeans.

So, if we are about to see Jer 50 & 51 in your understanding, we would expect to see the country around Babylon to be completely desolate and deserted with no one ever living there again, either man or beast (vs 3, 13). The attack will come from the North.

And, vs 23, now that Babylon is the "hammer of the whole world", according to your view, but it will be desolation among the nations. But now, Babylon is the hammer of the whole world? Something wrong there, I think. Perhaps something else is the hammer of the whole world right now who has conquered and running Babylon right now.

Now Jer 51:13, Babylon is the city that sits on many waters???? It's in a desert. Or is there a country running Babylon that sits on many waters (Atlantic, Pacific, etc).

That's just for starters. God leaves clues to a greater fulfillment of the original literal fulfillment. For example, In Revelation 17:16 the Beast hates the harlot and eats her flesh. That is a direct allusion back to 2 Kings 9:35 when dogs eat the flesh of Jezebel. First the natural, then the spiritual fulfillment. History repeats.

So, if we are about to see Jer 50 & 51 in your understanding, we would expect to see the country around Babylon to be completely desolate and deserted with no one ever living there again, either man or beast (vs 3, 13). The attack will come from the North.

Actually, I believe that we have been seeing he fulfillment of Jeremiah 50 and 51 since Gulf War One. I do expect country around Babylon to be desolate when everything concludes. I expect it to take a while.

Yes, the attack will come from the north.

And, vs 23, now that Babylon is the "hammer of the whole world", according to your view, but it will be desolation among the nations. But now, Babylon is the hammer of the whole world? Something wrong there, I think. Perhaps something else is the hammer of the whole world right now who has conquered and running Babylon right now.

Now Jer 51:13, Babylon is the city that sits on many waters???? It's in a desert. Or is there a country running Babylon that sits on many waters (Atlantic, Pacific, etc).

That's just for starters. God leaves clues to a greater fulfillment of the original literal fulfillment. For example, In Revelation 17:16 the Beast hates the harlot and eats her flesh. That is a direct allusion back to 2 Kings 9:35 when dogs eat the flesh of Jezebel. First the natural, then the spiritual fulfillment. History repeats.

The fact that Babylon is the "hammer of the whole world" is not my point of view, it is Gods. No, there is nothing wrong, the hammer, Babylon, becomes desolate in the word of God.

As I stated before, you need to find out why Babylon is the hammer of the whole world, instead of looking for a hammer and calling it Babylon. It is the land of the Chaldeans receiving judgement in Gods word for destroying his Temple. That judgement is very likely happening now.

As far as your comment about Babylon sitting on many waters and being in a desert, you will find your answer in Rev 17:15. "The waters which you saw, where the harlot sits are peoples, multitudes, nations and tongures."

The Bible explains much of it's symbolism. We don't have to dream up our own.

Originally posted by godservant
I think many will die in the next 1-10 years and 'times' will change.

I'm Catholic (mostly). I agree with this statement.

I'd like to add that it is the 'end of times' for MANY people every day.
Everyone will have their own personal 'end of the world' and it will
come sooner rather than later (time flys!!). Be prepared at all times
because it could happen for you and me at any moment ... today,
tomorrow, 3 decades from now ....

Cycles are all over and I imagine the earth has one as well.

I have no idea why we have all these dead planets around us but my only guess is they were once alive as well.

I look at evolution of cycles each time getting better however it may have some hard times getting there. Peaks of destruction and purifaction process.

Once Duality has started can it ever end?

Many people believe that before there was creation there was chaos and everything seprated to form a slow creation of world/bodies etc maybe if we were all fully awake this would happen again just to reinvent ourself. I see a problem with when this happens no one remembers the earthly concious so can we evolve into a eutopia? I guess it depends on what is out there for an afterlife. Is there heaven and hell already? In Christian doctrine why are people brought back to be judged if heaven in hell already exsist? Would an Antichrist be beeded to further duality? Does the Jewish and Kabblah view of elimintion of chaos have any truth?
In the movie Pi when they run a strand of number to the names of God (216) the computer self destructs after seeing itself. Does the mass end involve all of us being pulled together as one soul? Do you see the need of something or body being globaly wicked to make you all fear in such great levels you will be forced to unite and want either two things Heaven or Hell/Good or evil? If I don't make sense now I never will.

Somebody or thing needs to open the chaos and encapture it...

Who agrees?

! Really?

Too bad Jesus-god told his homies that he was coming back in THEIR lifetimes! What was it, like "I'll be back within one generation" or something? We've been in the end times for 2000 years!

Now, that doesn't mean I think the world will last forever. Millions of years from now, the sun will eventually destroy the earth, but it's debatable if we humans won't become extinct by that time.

But, giant angels with trumpets and demon dudes on horses, give me a break!

Look at the gas prices.They are rising.Eventually we run out of oil.Our last resort is to control as much oil as possible,wage war.Look at your TV?What do you watch compared to 10 years ago.How much worse has the mainstream gotten.The politicians are robbing us of our faith and freedoms.This has to stop.And no more MTV!:bnghd:

Prodestant:- do not ateend church on a sunday(help me ) lol

Do I believe that the ends of days has begun ... YES
Do I believe we know it ... some do ,, some dont
Do Ii believe as fortold the Anti-Christ will rise - debatiale
Do Ii believe that Christ will be reborn - debatable

Do I believe that the word is gonna get hit by a comet - Very REAL
Do Ii believe that the percentage, population of the world are going to wiped out yes Ii Do Believe and I hope im not one of them but thats fate!

One thing is for sure it is going to be a very interesting.. (2006 - 2012)....