The Fact is, Jesus is the prophesied Messiah

Sun Matrix - Buddhists do NOT Worship "Baal" - please do not lump everyone into the same basket. Thank You.

Originally posted by Sun Matrix
If you want to disprove Atheism, no problem. Read the New Testament ...

Well I don't want to disprove Atheism. I don't want to prove or disprove anything. And if I did, I wouldn't read an unproven book to do so.

I don't care what anyone believes. I don't even care if you believe that the bible is cold hard fact. To each his own. But regardless of what you think, say or believe, you can no more prove the bible or that Jesus is the Messiah than you can prove pink elephants exist.

That's just the way it works, each man has to seek the truth for himself.

Now we can agree on something.

Too bad you have found your truth and insist that it's everyone else's truth too! Now we don't have to do all the work!

My whole argument (as you know) is that you call your beliefs "facts". And at this point, I really don't care about that either because I know better. They're beliefs, regardless how many times you say the word FACT.

The sun came up this morning. Because it's cloudy and you can't see to believe that it did, has absolutely no bearing on the fact that it did.

If you chose to make no effort to prove the facts, this also has no bearing as to whether they are facts or not.

As for me, I made the effort to climb the mountain and look above the clouds. The sun came up this morning, fact.

I can't say for certain, but I'm pretty sure the earth's rotation this morning gave you the impression that the sun came up. I really urge you to take my earlier advice and learn what a fact is. It's one thing not to understand this concept yourself, but it gets really embarrassing when you try to educate others on what facts are, when you clearly don't know yourself.

[edit on 4/5/06 by mytym]

Originally posted by mytym
I can't say for certain, but I'm pretty sure the earth's rotation this morning gave you the impression that the sun came up. I really urge you to take my earlier advice and learn what a fact is. It's one thing not to understand this concept yourself, but it gets really embarrassing when you try to educate others on what facts are, when you clearly don't know yourself.

[edit on 4/5/06 by mytym]

LOL, here is a quote from some of your earlier advice.

Truth lies in the heart and mind of the beholder. It is my feeling, that everyone has their own truth, and that truth may not be the same as someone else's. It doesn't really matter. If you believe it, then the belief you have is your own truth. After all in absolutelness, I suspect that nothing exists that can be proven to be true, beyond debate.

You would be an ablolute piece of work on a jury.

It is a FACT that you are absolutely CLUELESS as to what TRUTH is.

I might have said, it is my OPINION in the past, but it now can be proven as FACT.

Good luck with all that.

..so when was Noah's flood again?

Originally posted by Sun Matrix

I was raised Catholic and became a Christian. The Muslims are nasty because they are following a false god. The Muslim people have been fed a crock and as such attack Christians and Jews, certainly not the will of God.

[edit on 19-3-2006 by Sun Matrix]

And you say muslims are nasty lol...you just bellow all that is wrong with religion. You claim their god is false they claim yours...when are both side going to wake up and release that there is no god...or at least recognise that the god they preach about are technically the same.

Muslims in my opinion have been fed the same crock as any christian or jewish or any other religious faith have been fed through out there exsistance.

and to label all of muslim followers nasty and that they all attack other faiths as pure disgusting..(you been sleeping with mr bush). your christian faith persecuted other faiths and people so your faith is just as nasty, disgusting and full of persecution.

And people wonder why their is war, murder and general hatred between communties all because religion is put out of context or people like yourself need ot move out of the past....next you tell us we should round up all muslims to keep them under control.

On the jesus stuff i need the proof that he was and is real as all i see is the bible etc that were written by man who over generation will change edit text to their own fallicy.

Originally posted by Sun Matrix

Most people are searching and end up chasing aliens and reptilians instead of truth.

Not to sound all knowledgable about the bible and I will admit to being an athiest but i have read part of the bible due to school and stuff when i was younger.

you go on about people chasing aliens and retilians now aint there a part in the bible about a snake offering or tempting adam to eat an apple....looks like they were chasing them as well.

To use the bible is to use another persons imagination in my opinion...it been around for how long and in that time how many time has it probably been edited by ppl before a full mass publication could be made of it.

To have proof you need the bible passage and then evidence through other means details account of several people books and not just a single source or a source that gets is source from the bible(Some would call that plagarism)

It just like me believeing the davinci code just by reading the book since he claimed to research it so well.

Here are some facts I know to be true

I need oxygen to live....proof get someone other than yourself lock them in an air tight room and watch (Need this and another person to prove the fact and to have someone else to back it up...video do same thing) I dont recommend this lol.

If i pull the plug that powers my computer its going to go off.

facts that cant currently be proven by ourselfs.

Jesus was alive....I dont have countless eye witnesses account mainly just the bible which has been in exsistance for how long and didnt get to it final state for some time so pleanty of time to add a little here and a little their.

Aliens exsist we have countless ppl with their experiences video that are blurry but we aint ever had a full public news at 10 interview with one that allow for countless verification that aliens exsist. The goverment may have the evidence but to general public there is no current fact that they exsist....just theory that the size of the universe and the fact that it a damn miricle for us to be the only one is near impossible.

Originally posted by Sun Matrix
As for me, I made the effort to climb the mountain and look above the clouds. The sun came up this morning, fact.

I didn't have to climb the mountain. It's light outside. The sun came up.

And just for your information, I was raised in a very religious family, I have a very religious background. I have read the entire bible, I was born again and baptised and I spent a good deal of time in church, worshipping, praying and educating myself about the story of the prophet, Jesus. So I am not speaking from ignorance.

Faith isn't about proof. I have faith (I believe) that the sun will come up tomorrow, but I can't prove it until it happens. And I would be insane to try to prove it to people as fact when I cannot be sure it's going to happen.

And you can't prove that Jesus is a prophesied messiah until he shows up. You can believe it, you can have unshaken faith in it, but you can't prove it. And it isn't a fact. A fact has objective reality.

Religious ideas aren't meant to be proven. That's what faith is about. What is your need to make everyone think you have "the facts" and they don't? Because we all know better.

You can even think you have the facts, but trying to convince people who disagree without showing them proof is pointless and fruitless. If you want me to agree with you that it's 'fact' then you show me proof. I'm not going to go out and hunt your proof for you because I know it isn't there. And if it is, then show it to me.

Originally posted by Sun Matrix
Bring your facts.

You bring yours!

[edit on 4-5-2006 by Benevolent Heretic]

Why is this thread 13 pages long? I mean, that sure is a lot of pages considering there's been not even the tiniest bit of resolution here.

I've never seen a religious person change their mind as a result of the reasoned and logical arguments presented to them. Belief is by nature irrational, and religion often encourages irrationality.

Arguing about whether Jesus (not proven to ever have actually existed) is (or was) the Messiah (a vague concept based on irrational "prophecy" to begin with), is possibly one of the most pointless arguments ever undertaken. It only matters to the person asking the question, and no one else. It means nothing to people who don't believe in Jesus or a Messiah.

As for the endless semantic argument about what is a "fact" and what isn't, I always think it's a good idea to consider what sociologist Emile Durkheim said about it. He essentially said that it doesn't matter what is real, the only thing that matters are the consequences. So if somebody's dog tells them to kill people, it doesn't really matter if the dog can "really" talk. If people end up dead, it's real enough.

So if somebody says "Jesus" is some kind of "Messiah," good for them. Whatever floats their boat. You can argue about it for 13 pages and it won't accomplish anything except pumping up your blood pressure. For a lot of these religious types, that's about the only kind of excitement they get.

Originally posted by Enkidu
Why is this thread 13 pages long?
...
For a lot of these religious types, that's about the only kind of excitement they get.

I believe you answered your own question!

Sun Matrix:
Thanks for bringing up that thread of mine, it makes a lot of sense. I couldn't agree with myself more. Unfortunately I fail to see the relevance between you have no idea what a fact is and me understanding that truth is something that each individual must find for themselves. Good work!

I belive I said "I can't say for certain" when referring to your education technique indicating that your factual teachings were not facts, as opposed to any indication that my advice was fact. More embarrassment for you Sun Matrix. I've tried removing your foot from your mouth, but you keep lodging it deeper and deeper.

Please take my advice on this one, PLEEAAASSSE! Don't educate people with opinions that you disguise as facts. You are only embarrassing yourself.

You also may want to re-read that thread of mine on truth, it may just teach you something about the significance of what other people hold to be true in relation to what you hold to be true.

Mytym,

What your day like? I can see it now. You show up late for work and your boss says, "you're late".

You respond, "That's you're opinion".

And your boss probably would say, "I'm sick of this crap, You're fired".

You respond, "Well, that's your truth, I found my truth and my truth says I'm still working here.



I think a large dose of reality is in order. Fact.

That's uncanny! You're spot on! Were you there today?

Congratulations on finally get a fact right (if you are being completely honest that is), it has been a long time coming. You are correct, you do think a large dose of reality is in order. Now you just need to string a few facts together and you may be able to regain some credibility.

Unfortunately, I fear that you stumbled across this fact by chance, thus chances are we may have to wait a while for you to stumble across the next one.

[edit on 5/5/06 by mytym]

There is no fact that Jesus was/is the Messiah. The only records of him come from the Bible and they have been edited and tweeked so many times that even going back to the original greek and aramaic is dicey. I have said it before and I will say it again, IF you are incapable of framing your arguments without using the documents (scripture in this case) that are the source of your argument then the issue is not debatable. As far as I know the only reinforcement of the Christ story outside of Christian writings is in the works of Josephus, and that is most likely a Christian insert. I would highly recommend Robin Lane Foxes 'Unauthorized Version": Truth and Fiction in the Bible. He is an fine scholar, and his "Pagans and Christians": Religion and the Religious Life from the Second to the Fourth Century A.D., When the Gods of Olympus Lost their Dominion and Christianity, with the Conversion of Constinantine, Triumphed in the Mediterranean World. (Yes that is its full sub-title) is an incredible (if sometimes difficult) read and well worth the effort. Very scholarly, very eridite and very educational.

All that being said, you can still be a follower of Christ outside of the whole religious framework, after all Religions are what become of spiritual teachings when people realize how difficult they are to practice.

Originally posted by Sun Matrix
I think a large dose of reality is in order. Fact.

Again, placing the word "fact" next to an obvious opinion (as prefaced by "I think") does not make the statement a fact. But it's ok if you believe it does.

Originally posted by grover
I have said it before and I will say it again, IF you are incapable of framing your arguments without using the documents (scripture in this case) that are the source of your argument then the issue is not debatable.

No wonder you've said that before.

Originally posted by Sun Matrix
Hinduism, Buddism, Mormonism etc. follows the same false god, Baal, the sun god and teaches salvation thru works.

Well Sun Matrix, you might be the only person who would actually dare to classify hinduism as consisting of a singular doctrin or focus not to mention classifying it as a religion like Christianity, Islam, Judaism etc.

I think you need to have a relook at hindusim, buddhism before you begin to slot and classify them. As for the Sun God, though you could interpret them symbolicaly as "sun worshipers" ironicaly the moon is of greater spiritual significance to them. Also to claim that hinduism is an offshoot of some Babylonian religion ( I think you are refering to the Zorastrians here) is again way off the mark; not only in concept but also in practise.

[edit on 9-5-2006 by IAF101]

As for the Sun God, though you could interpret them symbolicaly as "sun worshipers" ironicaly the moon is of greater spiritual significance to them.

Sun, moon, stars. Different variations of the same lie that originated in Babylon.

Also to claim that hinduism is an offshoot of some Babylonian religion ( I think you are refering to the Zorastrians here) is again way off the mark; not only in concept but also in practise.

Well, It's just like the Vatican being full of the symbol of the sun. Catholics are not sun worshipers and yet their religion originated in Babylon. The mark of the sun is there.

Same as Islam, Muslims do not worship the moon, but the mark is there.

Sun, moon, and stars, all from Satan, all originating in Babylon, and all blinding the world from the truth.

Originally posted by Sun Matrix
Well, It's just like the Vatican being full of the symbol of the sun. Catholics are not sun worshipers and yet their religion originated in Babylon. The mark of the sun is there.
...
Sun, moon, and stars, all from Satan, all originating in Babylon, and all blinding the world from the truth.

Is the "mark of the Sun" in your username? Now, I'm not saying you originate from Satan or anything, but your assumptions about anything having the mark of the Sun being from Babylon or Satan makes me wonder why you chose that particular username with billions of others available... Are you, too, trying to blind the world from the Truth?

And I get that anything you believe is the (big T) Truth and everything else is false and lies and from Satan and Babylon. :shk: Yeah, I get that.