Not sure why you bring up diplomacy, I debunk nothing, what I disagree with are things that harbor no evidence. On another board someone is saying that Freemasons perform Ritual and Sexual Abuse, which they do not, and when I said for him to prove it he calls me a perv.

Most anti-freemasons are very rude individuals, that twist facts worse than most liberals do.

Sincerely,
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Well FM, not that I believe Masons kill and rape babies, but can you prove that those far above you do not?

To make unsubstantiated claims is ignorant, however, to simply not believe something to be possible just because you do not see it happen is also just as ignorant.

I believe that the highest ranking members of the Masonry are in fact involved in potentially Idolistic practices of which I can not prove, but I am sure others could if smart enough. In reading about BG with supportive photos (of course they could very well be fakes) I do believe that there are things going on in this world that although I can not see them happen, are.

freemason your posts are cool...you have a clear vision of what is going on this planet...

Mogus you're right about not being able to prove it definately till I get there myself, though I've never seen baby parts or blood on my friend's lips yet :p

Anyways though...I can tell you that thinking of the degrees as "ranks" is what most people think which is wrong, hence why I'm pretty sure whatever 33rd degree members do, it doesn't matter.

Because as I've said before you only need to be the 3rd!!!! degree to be a Grand Master, and the Grand Master runs the show, and again, only in his Grand Lodge's Jurisdiction.

And furthermore, almost all Grand Lodges limit terms to 1, meaning only one grand master per year, and he can never be one again...so the possibility of some super secret take over the world scheme, would have to be in the ritual if anywhere, because it can't be in those in charge, and I've not seen it in the ritual, and the way things are going, means that the next ritual is expected to be more history lessons (like the Royal Arch goes through all the history of Israel, particularly the worst times) and so if it suddenly changed to, "13 easy steps to ruling the world" I think someone legitimate would come forward.

Anyways...when I reach 33 You'll all be the first to know if we eat babies...I promiss :p

Sincerely,
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Illuminati is a condition, not a society.

Freemasons, Rosicrucians, Wicca, all have Illuminati at the top.

J.D. Buck, Albert Pike, Manly P. Hall and Foster Bailey - all 33d degree Freemasons - all wrote that Freemasons are controlled by the Illuminati.

if the Illuminati don't exist how do you explain there symbol on the back of our dollar bill and the torch of the statue of liberity?

Hall wrote some pretty messed up crap that isn't even accurate, Pike never said there was an "Illuminati" control at the top, and I don't know about the other guy.

Sincerely,
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C.S. Lewis mentioned the Illuminati, masons, anthroposophists, theosophists, and various other occult societies in Collected Letters: Volume One. He spoke of the Illuminati in present tense. It is highly likely that Tolkien knew of it as well... consider the masonic symbols used for the evil powers: great eye of Sauron, the two towers (cabbala), the twisting of Saruman to evil through secret associations with Sauron...

If that is not enough, consider these lines, spoken by Saruman, in the movie...

"The old world will burn in the fires of industry.
Forests will fall. A new order will rise."

Whatever Lewis and Tolkien knew, it frightened them enough not to fight it openly. It is obvious, however, that Tolkien knew the meanings of these symbols and placed them as ominous and forboding. Perhaps as a warning.

-ß-

Well the quote "The old world will burn in the fires of industry" seems only to be targeting the fact that social structure has changed from what it was before industry, to what it is now.

As for Tolkien, LotR actually has a Huge amount of symbology, this we know, and some do seem VERY masonic, however!!!!!! All the truly "masonic symbols" are on the side of good.

Explaination:

The eye of God, is just that, and Sauron is NOT god.

The doors of moria, this is filled with masonic symbology, it has two collumns upon which there is earth wrapping them and the heavens cover them, and it has tools the sun, and is lit by the moon, and if you know anything about Masonic ritual or symbology these stick out like a sore thumb but could just be a coincidence.

Like wise the doors are opened only if you know the password and likewise the password is right infront of EVERYONE'S nose (just as with masonry, kind of ironic really, but you've all heard the passwords before, you just don't know what you're looking for )

The doors also were a link of friendship between 2 VERY different peoples that had NOTHING in common, that is exactly what Freemasonry is, a bond between peoples who have nothing in common!

There's probably other symbology but I've only read the book once...more likely all that book is coincidence because it was entirely lifted from Finnish mythology.

Sincerely,
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Freemason,

The quote, "The old world will burn in the fires of industry", may seem to suggest the social structure has changed, but "A new order will rise" most definately does. Since you are already familiar with the term "New World Order" I shouldn't have to explain what significance this quote has to our modern world (and, perhaps, Tolkein's preconception of it).

You said, "The eye of God, is just that, and Sauron is NOT god".

I will venture to say that what you think of as God, I know as the devil - as did Lewis and Tolkein, no doubt. The similarities are striking between the "the eye, wreathed in flame; unblinking; unflenching; which sees all..." and the "all-seeing eye", and its radiating sunbeams, of the freemasons. Tolkein knew more about mythology and magic than anyone here (including myself) realized. Placing the "eye" in LOTR as a malicious character/symbol was no mistake. He knew what he was doing, and what the great eye meant to whom (masons).

You also said, "The doors of moria, this is filled with masonic symbology, it has two collumns upon which there is earth wrapping them and the heavens cover them, and it has tools the sun, and is lit by the moon, and if you know anything about Masonic ritual or symbology these stick out like a sore thumb but could just be a coincidence."

I don't doubt that this has Masonic meaning. Please recall what terrors those doors led to and Gandalf's fear of what lay inside. Moria is not a good place, nor a holy place. It is accursed. And it is there that Gandalf, the wisest of the fellowship, falls into the pit with the great Balrog. This is a warning to all those who attempt to take occult "shortcuts" rather than the long road of perserverance.

"There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death." Proverbs 16:25

"Enter ye in at the straight gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." MATT:13-14

I checked my dictionary for the word "symbology". There is no such word. Perhaps you meant symbolism?

-ß-

God is God doesn't matter what you think, you are the reason 2000 years of science went down the toilet, if in this time when Mankind has been to the moon, you still believe that someone who believes in god in their own way, really believes in satan, then you're trully a sheep.

And Tolkien really didn't give a crap about religion, so I guess he's a "satanist" too.

You also fail to realize one of the most crucial things in the book. Sauron's "flaming eye" can't see crap! He only sees what he wants to see, and when Aragorn showed him that he did indeed exist, Sauron imediately turned his vision to making war against Gondor. When that happens, Sauron no longer sees what is really going on (The hobbits getting close to mount. doom) but rather he sees his own victory, not doom.

You seem to think that his eye is "all seeing" but it is far from it, the eye wreathed in flame is simply sauron, his existance, all that is left of him after his body died.

"I don't doubt that this has Masonic meaning. Please recall what terrors those doors led to and Gandalf's fear of what lay inside." - Savonarola

Please recall that the "terror" inside, was defeated by Gandalf, and if you want to be particular, gandalf would make a perfect Senior Warden.

Also a little more masonic stuff in LotR, is the "east".

You say "Moria shows not to take Occult shortcuts" well I hate to break it to you but the Immortal elves are indicative of Freemasonry! HAH!

They are travelers from the west, they are immortal, wise, good, and moral, they are the best of all the peoples of middle earth.

They brought from the west to the east what all men seek, and once their job was done, they left those in the lands without, to use the knowledge they gave them to defeat the last of their evils and woes.

And like-wise once Sauron was defeated, Man-kind, now the torch bearer in the new west, travels east to quell the last of all evil.

If that isn't masonic then knock me over with a feather.

I just don't see how the minor allusions to evil such as what's inside moria, and sauron's eye (both relatively irrelevant) have anything to do with all the TRAVELLING done by the good in the books, to the east.

And while the Elves physically return to the west, what they brought (alluding to freemasonry) endures to end the last of evil (corruption and greed) and then man takes it further east (rhun).

Before your theories of the eye and what's inside moria (remember the gates of moria are what allowed Gandalf to become the white, had gandalf not gone into moria, he'd never achieve "perfection" and thus they'd never won, so moria was not a "lesson" but a trial, much as all masons take, and if you think of it, this trial is much like the 3rd degree, in that Gandalf "dies" to be "raised" again, notice, raised, not ressurected, in the books gandalf never "dies" but rather "changes" just as you do when you are raised to a master mason. Moria is a trial, where Gandalf becomes a Master Mason.)

Well I guess since coming to that conclusion, you only really have one point in LotR that is unmasonic, and that's the eye, and it is not even all seeing....your point is wearing thin

Sincerely,
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Sincerely,
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lol

If Freemason is an example of wise, good, moral and overall what it means to be in the top ranks of humanity...I'm a f.ucking god!

"Gandalf is biblical in character. Like St. John the Baptist, he is the heralder of the King. Like Christ, he dies and is resurrected." - Savonarola

You just proved you obviously know nothing about Tolkien or where he got the ideas for his books, they are completely and utterly Norse in origin, no "christian" involvement what-so ever, ruling out gandalf being christ like.

So go and read up more on it.

As for "Everything bad happens something good happens thing" you were talking about...I guess you've never heard of a trial, to become better you must be both humbled, and challenged, but you seem to think more like a communist, wouldn't surprise me if you were one.

And as for you Mogus, grow up, you're beginning to get annoying.

Sincerely,
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The FM v Mogus crap is tired.

Stop.

Originally posted by FreeMason
As for "Everything bad happens something good happens thing" you were talking about...I guess you've never heard of a trial, to become better you must be both humbled, and challenged, but you seem to think more like a communist, wouldn't surprise me if you were one.

now that wasn't necessary.

Freemason,

You said, "You just proved you obviously know nothing about Tolkien or where he got the ideas for his books, they are completely and utterly Norse in origin, no "christian" involvement what-so ever, ruling out gandalf being christ like."

If dwarves in Norse Mythology were giants and if dwarves in Germanic Myth were short and stocky and if dwarves in LOTR were short and stocky, dwarves in LOTR therefore herald from Germanic Lore, and not from Norse.

Elves are absolutely a celtic myth. Also known as the sidhe, the fey, or the Tuatha du Danaan (people beneath/beyond the hill), they are rarely found in any myths outside the british isles - and therefore are not Norse in origin.

Gandalf was resurrected. Remember? He and the Balrog fell into water, Gandalf came out of the water, slayed the demon, and was reborn 'the white'. This is nothing short of baptism - like Neo (the Matrix), he falls into the water (slime) and is pulled into the light. Feel free to dispute the biblical nature of the Matrix (however warped, immoral, and ultimately inhuman the movie really is).

Aragorn is the descendant of Isildur (as Jesus was born into the house of David). Isildur, laying on his back, faced down the 'giant' Sauron with a broken sword and, as if by miracle, cuts the ring from the enemy's finger (David, a youth, defeats the giant, Goliath, with the stone from the sling and beheads the giant with Goliath's own sword). David took Goliath's sword, as Isildur took the One Ring. David became a nasty king, forgetting his duties to the Lord - he even murders a friend to take the man's wife. Isildur becomes addicted to the Ring and neglects his duties as King...

You also said, "you seem to think more like a communist".

I am not a communist. Nor am I a capitalist. I am a Christian. I belong to a King and am a citizen to a nation that is beyond these flawed, petty ideologies. I will do my best, in whatever systems come and go during my lifetime, to serve my King.

Material nations come and go, Earthly kings will rise and fall. There is one kingdom above them all.

Why serve anyone but the highest?

-ß-

Well posted mate!

I just recently found out that Tolkien was a devout Catholic (by my aunt who traveled the world heading an organization called the Youth 2000, Catholic Retreat) and reading your post, based on what I consider the best film trilogy of all time, was enlightening to say the least.

thx!

Originally posted by Savonarola
Freemason,
Elves are absolutely a celtic myth. Also known as the sidhe, the fey, or the Tuatha du Danaan...

There are Icelandic elvish legends.

But no matter. Mr. Tolkein's stories and characters evolved over years. He claimed there are no direct comparisons to much of anything, and in general, I believe he was only influenced by factors from several cultures (how could he not), as well as current events.

What does it matter? He provided an escape of grandure that millions have gained enjoyment and inspiration. What does granular analysis add in the end?


(And arguments with FM will only frustrate you. It's best to just walk away.)

William there are Nordic elves too, the Light Elves, quite interesting, and very similar to Tolkien's elves

Sincerely,
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