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Israel/Palestine (from ATSNN)

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posted on Feb, 26 2006 @ 03:39 PM
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Some popular misnomers about the Israel/Palestine problem.

It appears that the whole Israel/Palestine situation is a real bone of contention here on this site. I understand why it should be that way entirely. There are various implications within, and many different arguments for or against, be they geographical, archaeological, historical, economical, religious, political, etc. I've been watching the way things tend to slide when this subject comes up, and there are clearly 2 firmly divided camps on this issue. There are no in-betweeners, as far as I can tell. I guess the nature of the situation doesn't allow that!

Please let me lay a few foundational blocks here for a case I'm trying to state, which is: The idea of a 'Palestinian' is a myth. Alternatively, every Jew who lives in israel must also be a Palestinian. Ok here goes...
The term or expression Palestine was given to the land of Israel/Judea back during the times of Roman occupation, ultimately to dissasociate the land with any resemblance or association to the Jewsih people who had lived there. In fact, I believe Palestine is a poor, bastardized translation of the latin, Philistina, ie, the Philistines. History reveals that the Philistines were the great enemies/rivals of the ancient Hebrews, so calling their homeland 'Palestine/Philiostia' was a great kick in the teeth.
Now then...
Certain Palestinian spokespersons have equated their identity with the Philistines, as if to imply that the 'Palestinian people' have possessed the land of 'Canaan' (previous owners being the Canaanites), longer than the Hebrews. However, as any good historian/archaeologist will tell you, the Philistines were a non Semitic, sea faring people. To imply connection to the Philistines is to deny semitic roots, deny Abraham as your father (which the Palestinians claim) and to deny the fact that by genetic disposition, they are by nature, arabs. There are two types of semites (based on the whole seed of Abraham issue):Jews, or Arabs-Sones of Isaac, or sons of Ishmael. The buck stops there. Neither Isaac, nor Ishmael fathered the non semitic race that were the Philistines.

Now then, back in the days between 1948 (creation of a Jewish state) and 1967 (6 day war) why was there no Palestinian state? I see land called Trans-Jordan, but no land called Palestine. I see no records of people demanding a Palestinian state. Why not? It seems that until Yasser Arafat came alone and started making his claims, noone was demanding a Palestinian state. Why not? In fact, if the Palestinians are a legitimate people with a long history, please tell me who was their political representative/head of their cause before Yasser Arafat. Gamal Abdul Nasser? I don't think so. No mention of Palestinians there. King Hussein of Jordan? Please. He certainly didn't offer any support to Arafat and the PLO during its creation. Why not? Back in the days of Black September, King Hussein of Jordan had the PLO expelled from Jordan at the expense of some 10,000 lives. Seeing as Israel has annexed part of the land from Jordan that Yasser claimed was part of Palestine, you'd have though King Hussein would be right behind Arafat, giving him financial backing in his activities.

That's all I'lll say for now. I want to see where this goes.

Edit: Structure.



[edit on 26-2-2006 by intrepid]




posted on Feb, 26 2006 @ 03:58 PM
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The idea of a 'Palestinian' is a myth.


This sort of denialism is little different from Holocaust denialism.

If the land was not called Palestine from 1922 to 1947 what was it called?

The hardest question the OP will have to answer, and the only question required to debunk the entire pile of tripe.

Try to put the shoe on the other foot, and look at it from the other side.



posted on Feb, 26 2006 @ 04:18 PM
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If you look back at old maps (and I posted pictures of such maps on other threads you will see that prior to 1900s Palestine did not appear on the map. What is today Israel was called Syria. Mark Twain in his visit to what is today Israel refered to the locals of the area as Syrians. WWI the Ottoman empire was broken down and France received what is today Syria. The British wishing to name their land called it Palestine. The name the Romans called what was once Israel, Judea and Samaria.

Edit see maps: www.lib.utexas.edu...
www.lib.utexas.edu...
www.lib.utexas.edu...

as shown in my post on www.abovetopsecret.com...



[edit on 26/2/06 by JudahMaccabbi]



posted on Feb, 26 2006 @ 04:24 PM
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If you look back at old maps....


If you look back at old maps and ignore all of the maps from 1922 to 1947 you must come to the conclusion that there was no Palestine even though there was a nation called Palestine.

You are avoiding the part of histroy where it existed.

Why such head-in-the-sand denialism?




Israeli Palestinian Pro Con


Answer the fundamental question.

If not Palestine what was it called from 1922 to 1947?

Did the land just rise up out of the sea with Jews already living on it?

[edit on 26-2-2006 by ArchAngel]



posted on Feb, 26 2006 @ 04:33 PM
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you are basing a nationality on ~25 years of artificial existance by British beaurocrats? During the ottoman empire the area was ottoman and refered to as Syria. Palestinians themselves refered to themselves as Arabs and were against calling themselves PAlestinians since it did not acknowledge their Pan-Arab endevors. Palestinians as a national movement actually started with the PLO.

Do you honestly think that if you went to what is now Israel at the time that Zionism started (late 1800s) and asked an Arab/Muslim local (I say Arab/Muslim since there were Arab Christians as well as Arab Jews at the time) what are you, that he'd say I am Palestinian?



posted on Feb, 26 2006 @ 04:35 PM
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Hi Lucius,

I've posted on the subject recently, quite a few times in fact. Could've sworn I was an "in-betweener", although that's not a term I would normally use - perhaps "moderate" would be better? Not quite sure what all this has to do with the price of eggs though



posted on Feb, 26 2006 @ 04:38 PM
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Originally posted by JudahMaccabbi
you are basing a nationality on ~25 years of artificial existance by British beaurocrats?


Please try to read in context.

I was using the British Mandate period to debunk this statement by OP:


The idea of a 'Palestinian' is a myth.


Palestine existed.

The exact term for the entity is up for debate, but its name, and the fact that it existed are not.



posted on Feb, 26 2006 @ 04:40 PM
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Originally posted by maldives01
Hi Lucius,

I've posted on the subject recently, quite a few times in fact. Could've sworn I was an "in-betweener", although that's not a term I would normally use - perhaps "moderate" would be better? Not quite sure what all this has to do with the price of eggs though


As a "tweener" myself, free thinker if you will, this is a valid topic because both sides are spewing # out there so that there isn't any common ground, only conflict. IMO this keeps the PTB ON BOTH SIDES rolling. Who cares about the regular guy or gal? Too busy dealing with the politics to worry about that. :shk:



posted on Feb, 26 2006 @ 04:49 PM
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Well, I agree with you there Intrepid - we're in a minority! I still stand by my view that if you take an average guy off the street and get to the root of it, all he really wants is peace and the chance to provide for his family and see his kids grow up the same way. This is equally valid for an Israeli guy and a Palestinian guy. Lets hope we're both right, and not for any kudos we would gain for being so. Conflict is stupid, terrorism is stupid, violence is stupid - surely 99.9% of the world would have to agree with that!



posted on Feb, 26 2006 @ 04:52 PM
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Hi ArchAngel,

Trying to keep up here - who or what is OP? Probably a stoopid question, but I don't know



posted on Feb, 26 2006 @ 05:00 PM
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Originally posted by maldives01
Hi ArchAngel,

Trying to keep up here - who or what is OP? Probably a stoopid question, but I don't know


Original poster/person

The one either writting the first post, or the one quoted in the first post.



posted on Feb, 26 2006 @ 05:19 PM
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ArchAngel,

Thanks v much - knew it was something easy - slaps forehead at own stupidity!




posted on Feb, 27 2006 @ 10:50 AM
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Originally posted by ArchAngel

Originally posted by JudahMaccabbi
you are basing a nationality on ~25 years of artificial existance by British beaurocrats?


Please try to read in context.

I was using the British Mandate period to debunk this statement by OP:


The idea of a 'Palestinian' is a myth.


Palestine existed.

The exact term for the entity is up for debate, but its name, and the fact that it existed are not.


Agreed that Palestinian is a term but what differentiates the 'Palestinian' from the Syrian, the Egyptian or the Jordanian? Both are mostly Muslim, speak Arabic, eat the same Arabic foods and have the same culture. That is what is termed the Palestinian myth. The 'Palestinians' in the early PLO days circa 1960s spoke of national aspirations. What national aspirations? Again what made them a nation?
Jews and Israel is a nation. No-one else speaks Hebrew as a national language except for Israel, Israeli/Jewish culture and foods are unique. The Jews are a nation. Palestinians are just another group of Arabs who claim differentiation from other Arabs by the fact that they once lived on a land that was never separate from the other Arab/Muslim lands.
THat is the issue.



posted on Feb, 27 2006 @ 12:01 PM
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I seem to recall that the area 'Palestine' (while under the British Mandate and before,) can also be found on maps as an area described as the Levant. It also ecompasses part of Lebanon, Syria and Jordan I believe.



posted on Feb, 27 2006 @ 12:43 PM
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By the way, just out of curiosity...where exactly are you from ArchAngel?



posted on Feb, 27 2006 @ 12:53 PM
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Originally posted by JudahMaccabbi
Jews and Israel is a nation. No-one else speaks Hebrew as a national language except for Israel, Israeli/Jewish culture and foods are unique. The Jews are a nation. Palestinians are just another group of Arabs who claim differentiation from other Arabs by the fact that they once lived on a land that was never separate from the other Arab/Muslim lands.
THat is the issue.


How many nations speak English?? How many speak Spanish?? How many speak Arabic?? Do you think that there can only be one country that speaks a certain language?


And in addition, Jews didn't even start speaking Hebrew again until they created Israel! Before that, they were French Jews, German Jews, Russian Jews, etc. and spoke those languages.

Palestinians are a nation, they are united under a common language, most are of a common ethnicity, and they are bound to a geographical region. As well, if you do some research, you will find that Arabs differ a lot in their tribal affiliations, which is what made it so hard for them to organize around world war 1.



posted on Feb, 27 2006 @ 02:22 PM
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Originally posted by Jamuhn

Originally posted by JudahMaccabbi
Jews and Israel is a nation. No-one else speaks Hebrew as a national language except for Israel, Israeli/Jewish culture and foods are unique. The Jews are a nation. Palestinians are just another group of Arabs who claim differentiation from other Arabs by the fact that they once lived on a land that was never separate from the other Arab/Muslim lands.
THat is the issue.


How many nations speak English?? How many speak Spanish?? How many speak Arabic?? Do you think that there can only be one country that speaks a certain language?


And in addition, Jews didn't even start speaking Hebrew again until they created Israel! Before that, they were French Jews, German Jews, Russian Jews, etc. and spoke those languages.

Palestinians are a nation, they are united under a common language, most are of a common ethnicity, and they are bound to a geographical region. As well, if you do some research, you will find that Arabs differ a lot in their tribal affiliations, which is what made it so hard for them to organize around world war 1.



posted on Feb, 27 2006 @ 04:08 PM
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Lucius Driftwood why does it matter what the country was named when? The point is the Palestinian/Arab people there have been there a whole lot longer then the jews there today, the jews there today like said before are from europe, of european decent, they have no claim to the land other then what they claim god told them.



posted on Feb, 27 2006 @ 04:27 PM
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Originally posted by Jamuhn
And in addition, Jews didn't even start speaking Hebrew again until they created Israel! Before that, they were French Jews, German Jews, Russian Jews, etc. and spoke those languages.


They always spoke Hebrew, Jam. They might not have spoke it actively (namely because it marked them as Jews in times when they were oppresed), but they did speak Classical Hebrew in Temple. Also, Hebrew was an actively WRITTEN language for centuries.

Linkay

While I do support the rights of Israel, I also support the ethical treatment of Palestinians. I think I'm an Israeli-leaning moderate.

DE



posted on Feb, 27 2006 @ 04:41 PM
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Originally posted by DeusEx
Linkay


Dues, nice to hear from you again.
This is what I am talking about, from the above link:

After the depletion of the Jewish population of parts of Roman occupied Judea, it is believed that Hebrew gradually ceased to be a spoken language roughly around 200 CE, but remained a major written language throughout the centuries.

Hebrew was revitalized as a spoken language during the late 19th and early 20th century as Modern Hebrew, replacing a score of languages spoken by the Jews at that time, such as Arabic, Ladino (also called Judezmo), Yiddish, Russian, and other languages of the Jewish diaspora as the spoken language of the majority of the Jewish people living in Israel.

...

While many saw his work as fanciful or even blasphemous[1], many soon understood the need for a common language amongst Jews of pre-state Israel who at the turn of the 20th century were arriving in large numbers from diverse countries and speaking different languages... Ben-Yehuda's work fell on fertile ground, and by the beginning of the 20th century, Hebrew was well on its way to becoming the main language of the Jewish population of both Ottoman and British pre-State Israel.


But, all in all, I think it's a mute point, they speak Hebrew now, who cares how they learned it. Can't they all, just...get along?



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