but I'm still left wondering, how do the animals with the inborn languages, know what they mean? They can't all necessarily know what they're saying. Surely some of it's mimicking like parrots speaking english and whatnot. I doubt whales have an annual conference to teach the younger whales their language. So what is it in their brains, DNA, or whatever that allows them all to understand an inborn language?

[edit on 7-2-2006 by AnAbsoluteCreation]

Originally posted by Produkt

Animals throughout their lives, through their experiences, start to form a structure to the instincts, it is only a conisistency agenda. Like when you say the word "treat" the dog knows, from over many times of saying it, that he is getting a snack, and may even run to the place where they are stored.

Lol, same for man. Bad example. How you describe ego-subconscious sounds like self awareness to me.

I'll laugh outloud to you... That was paraphrased verbatim from the Bagivadgita, only a few thousand years old. Bad Example.

Originally posted by SFRemmy So what is it in their brains, DNA, or whatever that allows them all to understand an inborn language?

Exactly. AAC

Originally posted by pepsi78
The only things that are alive and dont think are insects.


[edit on 6-2-2006 by pepsi78]

wrong there dude, what about ants??

everything living creature/thing has intelligence one way or another!!

look at how some plants sit there with their mouth open!! - and as soon as a bug lands on it *BANG* it closes its mouth and the bug is dinner.

so everything that as ever be classed as 'alive' on this planet as had thought and intelligence (one way or another).

the only difference is we humans are the best at it (well some)

[edit on 7-2-2006 by st3ve_o]

Man has evolved around animals for as long as we know it.
My questions is why havent animals evoloved.
Why havent monkeys walked out of the jungle.
Let's see how many species of animals live on this planet?
And from all of them only man got the plejured to get rational.
I take it that something special had to hapen.
Now how many hundred of thoulsands of years has passed since man and animal existed.
That is more than enough for at least 1 speces to evolve to the point that man is.
Science to this day cant aswer this question, WHY?
In all this time nothing hapend, exept man.
Animal may think but they are just primitive.
Primitive thinking is thinking of course but it does not involve rationalment.




[edit on 7-2-2006 by pepsi78]

Primitive thinking is thinking of course but it does not involve rationalment .
[edit on 7-2-2006 by pepsi78]

Are you french, or do you actually think its a word? (its a french word for rational)

Originally posted by pepsi78

Now how many hundred of thoulsands of years has passed since man and animal existed.
That is more than enough for at least 1 speces to evolve to the point that man is.
Science to this day cant aswer this question, WHY?
In all this time nothing hapend, exept man.
Animal may think but they are just primitive.
Primitive thinking is thinking of course but it does not involve rationalment.

[edit on 7-2-2006 by pepsi78]

Well, I think you might be giving us humans a bit too much credit there. Who is to say that the average dog doesn't look at us and think "Why can't humans evolve to the point where they don't pollute the environment until it is no longer habitable? Dogs evolved; why can't humans?" :-)

And again I remind you of Koko. This gorilla was taught human sign language, and could "talk" (via sign language) almost as well as you and I. At one point Koko adopted a kitten. Months later she was told that the kitten had been hit by a car. She did not need to be told that the kitten was killed; the gorilla understood that in a car versus kitten confrontation, kitten would lose. Koko asked her handlers for some time alone, and as they left she was seen to be crying. This suggests that not only do animals think, they are capable of love and mourning the loss of a loved one.

Humans may currently be the most evolved creatures on the planet (or not, depending on who you talk to). But in my opinion at least some of the animals with which we share this planet are capable of reasoning above the level of simple instinct.

Humans may currently be the most evolved creatures on the planet (or not, depending on who you talk to). But in my opinion at least some of the animals with which we share this planet are capable of reasoning above the level of simple instinct.

You don't think that animals learn from us? We can domesticate a robot, but he will not ponder thoughts. A consciousness is not what we share with animals. It is the ability to love (emotion) that some animals have evolved to.

Originally posted by AnAbsoluteCreation
You don't think that animals learn from us? We can domesticate a robot, but he will not ponder thoughts. A consciousness is not what we share with animals. It is the ability to love (emotion) that some animals have evolved to.

I do think that animals learn from us - not sure what you saw in my post that led you to believe otherwise. I also think that animals share consciousness with us, and that they feel love and other emotions. I can't prove it, though; it's just my opinion. If you believe otherwise, I won't argue - your opinion is as valid as mine.

well i dont know about the studies...but ive owned 3 male yellow labrador retrievers over my life and everyone of them understood english better then some people ive met...i can tell my dog to get the red ball...the blue ball..the stick..the kitty ..not to get the kitty...the rope .... in the water..up the ladder ...in the truck,boat,car,yard ect. ... sit , heal , stay ,lay down ,speak , shake , get the hell outta here , no! , roll over , and I can ask him what he wants and he will lead me to it... this is just some of the words he understands and reacts to..i can say them all in the same tone of voice and he understands...this is sound to meaning recognition on a high level in the animal world...he is a domesticated and inbred member of the wolf family with long human exposure and interaction...Chimpanzee's Gorilla's, and other apes have shown remarkable comprehension and abstract thought through symbology and sign language...dolphins have there own complex language used for complex communication within the pods...elephants have been shown to communicate in subsonic levels across miles in the sahara...I believe the evidence points towards rudimentary thought in mammals like dogs..cats ..elephants but mainly in the carnivore side..."i think due to protien intake and need for hunting" and even higher abstract thought in apes and whales/dolphins .... another interesting creature with amazing intelligence usually overlook is the octopus....some believe on the same level as pigs and dogs ...

My Golden Retriever saw my husband had pizza in the living room - he ran to the slider doors barking urgently like he had to do his business and he waited and watched until my husband was busy unlocking the slider bar and then he ran in and snatched up the pizza. That took some reasoning on the dogs part. And, after he finished the pizza he didn't need to go outside.

They do think, but probably not as advanced as us.

Originally posted by SFRemmy
but I'm still left wondering, how do the animals with the inborn languages, know what they mean? They can't all necessarily know what they're saying. Surely some of it's mimicking like parrots speaking english and whatnot. I doubt whales have an annual conference to teach the younger whales their language. So what is it in their brains, DNA, or whatever that allows them all to understand an inborn language?

Samething that humans do: teach. Human parents can teach a newborn any language; it is quite possible to teach newborns to speak strictly in C or in binary (repititions of 1 and 0), or teach them a language that you fabricated.

It is premature to answer most of these questions. Is a whale's ability to communicate with another whale any different than a human's ablity to communicate with another human; meaning, do whale's have a more or less primitive language than humans.

Animals can think, if they have some sort of nervous system with a brain like organ. Though cognitive, maybe, but I highly doubt sentient. I do not know the exact number of species of animals, but all animals have unique ablities, and some worth remembering such as building dams or using twigs/branches as tools. Animals evolve so long as they live, and life will always find a way. But to do so, each generation must realize the importance in teaching the next generations the knowledge they have obtained and retained. Could you imagine if professors tomorrow stopped teaching calculus?

Animals can think and make plans, maybe not long term plans, but plans, as that story of the dog and the pizza showed.

I think the problem is that most humans think that we are superior to the other animals but never took the time to see how the other animals live.

As for language, I never had a dog, only cats, but I understand when a dog is calling other dogs, when is trying to frighten other animals and when it is in trouble, we only need to pay them some attention to understand that they make different sounds for different things.

Cats are different, probably because they hunt alone and not in groups like the wolfs and dogs do, but I know when my cat is seeing some bug that it wants to catch because it “says” that.

Originally posted by SFRemmy
Not just instincts, but if they have a real thought process. If they do, then how do they understand it, since surely they don't know a language, the knowledge of what things are around them so they'd have no idea how to interpret their thoughts it seems.

I understand what you're saying, and I've wondered it myself at times. Humans have "language", therefore they tend to think in that language. If one sees a dog walk by, one might think "Where is that dog going?"-- we think out questions and phrases in our minds in the form of language. A dog has no language-- therefore I believe they think in scenarios. Instead of thinking out the words "Where is that dog going?" they think out a scenario in which the dog is simply walking away and perhaps where it might end up-- no words involved.

I know to some of you this may sound stupid and obvious, but it actually is quite hard to imagine thinking without language.

I believe, though... that animals do recognize actual "language" as we know it. An example of this would be an owner having to spell out the word "ball" so their dog wont become overly excited and imediately run for the the ball to play. The human equivalent of this would be recognizing the difference between your dog barking to come inside the house, and your dog barking at an intruder.