Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

Originally posted by deltaboy
I have no objections to cartoons making fun of the politicians, but to put out cartoons to express of making fun or hatred of color or religion is way different.

How? Why are color and religion taboo subjects? How about sex? How about songs that put women down? What about nationality? Where do you draw the line?

Somebody answer me, please! Why is religion a protected subject?

Because it doesn't promote unity between peoples. It sets man against man. Is it really worth it?

Originally posted by Beachcoma
Because it doesn't promote unity between peoples. It sets man against man. Is it really worth it?

So do political cartoons! So do sexist songs. What's the difference between religion and all the rest?

I haven't read this entire thread but it proves to show that for centuries the Islamic world can dish out the inflammatory rhetoric/insults/death threats/etc. about Christianity and Judaism but when THEY'RE on the receiving end they're ready to blow up the world in anger - like a mega-dose of your own medicine, or in other words - maybe they will begin to understand what it feels like to have YOUR religion insulted (and this is only from a stupid freaking cartoon, nontheless!)

One thing atleast about the Christians and Jews - there are obviously differences in opinions and beliefs among those who practice the two religions but there has ALMOST ALWAYS been the tolerance to shrug off malicious rhetoric from any group or individual when it sprang its ugly head.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Denial of the holocaust should not be against the law! If you claim free speech, you shouldn't (in my opinion) pick out one subject and make an exception.]

Exactly

I think the Stormfronters are the greatest embarressment to whites on the planet but I would die defending their right to publish the nonsense and lies that they do. When you allow the madmen to speak its much easier to spot them......LOL.

And Beachcomba......

Where does it stop? Do we not allow anyone to say anything that might possibly offend someone? Who determinings what is offensive? Me? You? Some Government desk jockey? What if I am offended by just about everything?

I think the problem here is putting freedom of speech before serious matters.

Right now we know how the Muslims are reacting. We know how they react, or atleast this group of them.

They react violently...so is it that bad an idea to suppress some freedom of speech for the greater good? We can't tell Muslims how to act, and these ones will act this way. It was insanely stupid and somewhat arrogant to reprint the cartoons just to spite them. For the greater good they simply should not be printed.

Freedom of speech is great, but if it causes things like violent muslim protests, then its best to suppress some of it rather than continueing it on reasons of pride.

Your point is well made, beachcoma. Certain freedoms have limits, especially when they begin to infringe upon other peoples freedoms. It is a gray area, though. Much care must be taken in limiting them, though, for the protection of those very freedoms themselves. It's a hard choice.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

The freedom from being insulted? Where's that listed? We live in a multicultural, multiracial, multi-religious, multi-moral, multicolor, multi-political world.

WE'RE GOING TO GET INSULTED!

The idea that I can blame someone else for "provoking me" to hit them, start a fire or kill somebody and then blame them for saying some words or drawing some pictures is INSANE!

This is Political Correctness gone off the deep end!

PODcast - My Rights vs Your Rights. Listen to it!

Who said it was right to torch buildings, kill and then blame it on others? I didn't say that. The very act of torching buildings and killing is a provocation in itself. Two wrongs don't make a right.

As for your comment about "We're gonna get insulted," you've never been to my country, if you did, you would see that our formula of tolerance and respect for other's cultures which includes being sensitive enough not to say/write/publish inflammatory things work.

Having said that, it doesn't mean we don't tease other cultures. We do. In good fun. And privately.

As the Malay saying goes, belum cuba belum tahu - you won't know 'till you've tried it.

Well BH, today it seems we're on the same page! That fact is, sometimes in life you might be offended by a depiction of something you hold dear to you or something someone says and you have the right to voice your concerns or even boycott if the situation presents itself, but its disgusting to call for violence and even worse cause violence over a published cartoon.


[edit on 6-2-2006 by CogitoErgoSum1]

Because, Kacen, when you supress freedoms in order to appease such people, you eventually become their subjects.

Originally posted by Amuk

Where does it stop? Do we not allow anyone to say anything that might possibly offend someone? Who determinings what is offensive? Me? You? Some Government desk jockey? What if I am offended by just about everything?

Feel free to express anything you want, but use a little common sense, that's all I'm saying. It's not that difficult to figure out what offends people. And if you do inevitably offend someone, be gracious and apologize about it. I'm not saying you have to retract it, just a little acknowledgement that it may be offensive, and you apologize beforehand.

It's very easy to implement in reality.

I am listening to Dennis Prager and he offered what I think is a great fundamental reason for the differences between Islamic and western culture. He explained that western culture, from a moral standpoint, is based on right and wrong. In the Islamic world, morality is based on honor and shame. This, he explained, is the reason for "honor killings" whereby a member of a family can be killed if it's perceived that person dishonored the family. This also, he explained, is the reason for the riots---Islam, and specifically Muhammad, has been dishonored by the cartoons.

There is no freedom not to be insulted, your freedom is that you can leave or simply not look at insulting material. You have a choice whether or not to view it, that’s the freedom.

But the real issue here is do they (the Muslim protesters) have the right to demand people who are not bound by Islamic law or religion to stop doing things that violate it. After all, I cannot be arrested in America for something that’s only against the law in France.

Why are things done by other people not bound by the same rules so offensive to Muslims? You do not see non Muslims rioting in the streets in protest of some cultural or religious infraction that Muslims do.

Female genital mutilation is highly offensive to me, but a common practice in Islam. I have yet to riot in protest however. Why have I not protested this heinous religious practice? Because it’s not my faith that’s doing it and it’s a different culture with different values, I have no right to push my beliefs on theirs.

But for some reason non Muslims all but bend over backwards to accommodate Islamic practices and culture, but you almost never hear about Islam accommodating other faiths. You aren’t even allowed to own a Bible in Saudi Arabia, but try to ban the Quran in any other country in the world. Go ahead and try it.

Islam suffers from a dire infection of intolerance, is a trait of the religion clearly documented in the Quran itself. And it becomes a problem when this intolerance infringes on others rights. Violence will result.

I don’t hate Muslims, I hate intolerant radical Muslims that want to kill me because of what I believe. No Muslim will ever be my friend, so long as he or she does not respect my beliefs and culture. If you feel that logic is hateful, maybe your tolerance needs some adjustment as well…

Originally posted by Kacen
I think the problem here is putting freedom of speech before serious matters.

What?!?!?!?? Am I reading this right? Freedom of speech should take a back seat to a bunch of wild-eyed, building-burning cry babies?

Freedom of Speech IS A SERIOUS MATTER!

So if your child throws a temper tantrum and starts slapping you in the face, you figure it's your fault for pissing them off in the first place?

Freedom of speech is great, but if it causes things like violent muslim protests...

Let them protest! I'm fine with that as long as they don't hurt anyone (2 dead so far) or destroy buildings. Speech did not cause these people to burn buildings! They acted on their own anger!

then its best to suppress some of it

Supression of our First Amendment right is your choice, huh? Give in to the flamers? Back down on our way of government so the babies won't throw a fit?

I give up! No wonder this country's going in the crapper!

Islamic sociteties are "Honor" based....if your Daughter dis-respects the family, its ok to cut her throat.

If the Prophet Mohammed is dis-respected.....its ok to cut the throats of the culprits.

Their all about Honor and Saving Face....even tho they KNOW its wrong to Kill and Riot, the Muslims will do what it takes to bring "Honor and Respect" back to their family or Faith.

Those beliefs are not compatible with Western "Right-and-Wrong" values, because Honor based cultures are ether at your Throat or at your Feet.....and that depends on your reaction.

Show weakness and their at your throat.....show strength and their at your feet.

Maximu§

[edit on 012828p://111 by LA_Maximus]

Freedom_for_sum,

I think you've hit the nail right on the head. I personally see morality in terms of right and wrong, but I cannot deny that even the muslim malays in my country tend to see it in terms of honour and shame.

But I also strongly believe in sense and sensibility (not the movie )

Originally posted by CogitoErgoSum1
Well BH, today it seems we're on the same page!

Yeah, we ought to celebrate, because it's probably going to be the ONLY time this happens!

This only serves to prove what a numinous, grey area freedom of speech encompasses, nothing is set in stone, the cultural and individual bias of those involved influences how we view things and where the line is drawn.

Just remember John Lennons 'The Beatles are bigger than Christ' comment and the hysterical demos and record burnings that swept the US, only the US I seem to remember. What should we conclude from that, or should we make sweeping conclusions about whole populations or cultures at all.

Excellent post skippytjc If I could, I'd buy ya' a beer!!

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