Please re-read the statement before attacking me again.

I wasn't attacking you, I was asking you for a reference. Which is not out of order at all.

I realize I misundertood your statement, but you haven't provided any real references for your last couple of responses.

At this point... that is all I see in your post, your philosophy and personal opinion.

I find your California statements rather ignorant, and offensive, and I'm not even from California.

6 years old before Autism is diagnosed in California? Your Reference please.
You are WRONG AGAIN. They don't diagnose children under 3. How does that translate to 6? It says in my LINK above that %90 of all autistics are entered into the system by age 6.
See you are distorting the facts to your advantage.

they have the best reporting system in the USA, and are the highest population state, and that is why their data is looked at and used by experts.
Experts.... unlike yourself.. with high "opinions."


PLEASE START PROVIDING REFERENCES.




[edit on 1-2-2006 by KDX175DUEX]

Originally posted by noonoos
Well certainly I have learned something new, if only it had been 4 weeks earlier.
My 4yr old had his 2nd mmr vaccination. Two weeks later he became swollen in his face and developed a rash.
My GP told me he had reacted to the vaccine and was suffering a mild form of measles and mumps, *snip*

Yep, the vaccines sometimes cause the very thing they are supposed to protect from. Great system we got isn't it?

But the MMR is a seperate isssue. It does not use Thimerosal.
The MMR has been implicated as a possible trigger in the Autism. Possibly from overall immune system damage.

I believe the best way to get MMR is the single shots, and spread them out over time.
However thimerosal preservative is not an issue in that particular vaccine.
(just setting the record straight)

EDIT - Removed reference to study I can't track down.

[edit on 1-2-2006 by KDX175DUEX]

6 years old before Autism is diagnosed in California? Your Reference please.
You are WRONG AGAIN. They don''t diagnose children under 3. How does that translate to 6? It says in my LINK above that %90 of all autistics are diagnosed by 6.
See you are distorting the facts to your advantage.

Hmm, well, I made very clear my reference was your own link, but let me quote it in the post so you don't have to go through the trouble of reading your own research.

The state data do not include children under the age of 3. About 90 percent of all autistic children are entered into the system before the age of 6, the department said.

See now? Children may be diagnosed prior to 6, but they ARE NOT ENTERED INTO THE DATA SYSTEM, which is exactly what I said previously. This means they realistically only have about 3 years worth of data since the reduction of therimosal.

Get it?

Ciao,
~MFP

Hello KDX

My point was that Demetre was saying that MMR contained mercury in some form, presumably thiomersal.

Thanks very much for taking the time to post the link - I've read it, and would have cut and pasted it but it won't let me because it's PDF. Anyway - there's a statement on page 3 of the article that MMR doesn't contain thiomersal.

I really don't have an argument with you about thiomersal, because even if it *doesn't* cause autism, I don't think it is needed when other preservatives are available, or at least TM-free vaccines are available.

On the other hand, as a parent, I thought it important that mild child was vaccinated against serious infectious diseases - and I am seeing a lot of 'all vaccines are bad' posted here without any credible evidence behind it.

I just worry that if the population as a whole *doesn't* vaccinate, the Coburg scenario (see my first link, first post) will be played out nationally/internationally, with a big spike in measles rates and subsequent child deaths.

It's a difficult call - you can only base your decision on what you regard as the best evidence.

TD

We are just looking for safer vaccines and safer methods TD. -

And I already cleared up the Thimerosal not being in the MMR.
in the 2nd post at the top of this page.

My link was not a response to your post, it was just something I found and is actually from 2001. But it does mention something about the MMR 'trigger' that was mentioned, which I felt was germane info.


[edit on 1-2-2006 by KDX175DUEX]

[edit on 1-2-2006 by KDX175DUEX]

I think it's great all these parents jumping on the wagon to blame others (especially those that may be trying to help them) for their children's behavior. It's all too common these days for parents, doctors, teachers, etc...to blame so called behavioral problems on other factors then to accept responsibility. ADHD has become "epidemic" here in America simply because it's easier to give a kid a pill then to deal with the child itself. Autism Spectrum Disorders! There is a difference in children that have actual Autism to those that just have "ASD." I know of a child that was "diagnosed" with ASD, he was normal, he just has an actual personality and an opinion on what he liked and wanted. Is that so wrong (this day in age I guess so). As far as vaccines go, sure opt for the Mercury free ones, of course because it's still a poison. All medications have the warning labels that it MAY/CAN cause side effects. This is mainly just to protect them from the overzealous claims that people make on the drug companies and to prevent lawsuits. Don't put your child at harm just because of some negative effects that MAY or MAY NOT happen. Some people can die from allergic reactions to anything (peanuts, bee stings, shell fish, etc...) that doesn't mean that the entire world should ban the use of a product based on a few people's reaction.

Originally posted by Excitable_Boy
No offense Fred...but I don't think parents that are concerned about vaccines are trying to be "trendy."

\

Begging to differ, and being on the front line so to speak in my area (SF Bay Area) it was quite fashionable for the wealthy set to forgo such trival exersizes and the rest of the coffey klatch adopted a herd mentality. Most woke up after a few of silver spoon set children died in the ICU from a totaly preventable disease.

All of My research was done years ago. My son is 9 and had His last vaccination right before starting school in Aug. 2001. This was about the same time My daughter got Her last ones too, give or take a few months due to birthday differences. I believe it was Her 18 mo. shots. The innoculations they recieved contained mercury. I found out after signing a form promising not to sue the crap out of the DR. I asked what exactly I should be concerned about and was informed about the dangers of the element. I was also told that even though drug companies were working on a safer ing. there were many lots still containing mercury/thimerosal. It wasn't 'recalled' and many Drs used what They had left of the product, including Our pediatrician. My statement concerning 'child abuse' and vaccinations was to say it's ridiculous to state that non-vaccination of children borders on abuse, as ridiculous as the vaccination of children borders on abuse. Look, You don't have to agree at all. The poster asked for personal opinions & that's what I gave, no more no less. I explained why I chose not to innoculate My children, well, because it made sense to. I think We all do what we feel is right for Us & Ours.

Don't worry about any measles outbreak. There's what's called 'herd immunity'. Another reason I had no problems refusing vaccines.

Peace. K*

1. MMR- contains fertilized chickens eggs. Linked to autism and Crohns Disease. Contains 12 MCG. of Mercury which is 30x safe amt as stated by the EPA & Amer. Acad. of Peds.

2. Hep B- contains formaldehyde. Lethal reaction % is 1%. If 7 mill. kids are vaccinated then 700,000 will die. Mercury in vaccine has been replaced with aluminum which is linked to Alzheimers.

3. Diphtheria- putrified beef broth containing the diphtheria bacillus is injected into a horse until the horse has symptoms of blood poison. 2-3 gal. of blood is drawn from the horse over a 6-7 wk. pd., or until the horse dies. Your being injected with another latent animal virus. Contains 50 MCG. of Mercury which is 60x safe amt as per EPA & AAP.

4. Pertussis- Is not even a virus, it's a bacteria and can be cured with antibiotics. In 1935 the death rate dropped by 82%- before the vaccine was put into use.

5. Formalin- Used in vaccinations, a derivitive of formaldehyde. Ing. are- 37%-40% formaldehyde, H2O, and 10% methanol as a tissue fixative.

6. Flu vaccine- grown in fertilized chicken eggs or caterpillar cells, using millions of eggs a yr.

Autism rates rose from 900,000 in 1991 to 5 million in 2005. Mercury linked to autism. Mercury is 1 of the most toxic elements on earth- 2nd only to plutonium.

You call this "personal opinion" Demetre? Oh please!

Ciao,
~MFP

The state data do not include children under the age of 3. About 90 percent of all autistic children are entered into the system before the age of 6, the department said.

See now? Children may be diagnosed prior to 6, but they ARE NOT ENTERED INTO THE DATA SYSTEM, which is exactly what I said previously. This means they realistically only have about 3 years worth of data since the reduction of therimosal.

Get it?

Ciao,
~MFP

No I don't get it.... bsl4

The state data do not include children under the age of 3. About 90 percent of all autistic children are entered into the system before the age of 6, the department said.

Read the original quote again.
That means age 3 and 4 and 5 year old children ARE IN THE SYSTEM.
And they saw the first drop in autism rates 10 in years. Which is anecdotal evidence only.

You make it sound as though they are not entered into the system until age 6.

get it?



[edit on 1-2-2006 by KDX175DUEX]

I'm going to try to make myself clear one more time, although I don't see how I was unclear previously. Children that are aged 0-3 RIGHT NOW are not in the system. They make up a large portion of the non-therimosal injected population. The thimerosal-free forms of the hepatitis B vaccine were streamlined into public use here in Europe in 2001, early 2002. The thimerosal-free forms of the flu vaccine were not introduced until 2003. That means If you look at children aged 4-6, as the state of California does, you are only seeing about 2 years of data during the thimerosal-free period. Until the children aged 0-3 right now are entered, we don't have the standard 5 year medical study group. 2 years really isn't enough to see a full trend to make correlations, especially in a population size as small as just California.

Originally posted by Demetre
Don't worry about any measles outbreak. There's what's called 'herd immunity'. Another reason I had no problems refusing vaccines.

Great glad we can keep your kids safe to compensate for your neglect . Funny just a few posts ago, someone posted a negative comment about owrrying about the greater good or "Do no evil at all"

"Hello Kettle, its the Pot..... YOUR black"

SO i ask again. Are you willing to sign a binding document stating that you will pay out of pocket all the incured medical expenses. I mean again why should the herd pay for this level of neglect?

Originally posted by bsl4doc

Hmm, well, I made very clear my reference was your own link, but let me quote it in the post so you don't have to go through the trouble of reading your own research.

The state data do not include children under the age of 3. About 90 percent of all autistic children are entered into the system before the age of 6, the department said.

See now? Children may be diagnosed prior to 6, but they ARE NOT ENTERED INTO THE DATA SYSTEM, which is exactly what I said previously. This means they realistically only have about 3 years worth of data since the reduction of therimosal.

Get it?

Ciao,
~MFP

I think it's a language difficulty - BSdoc's quote says, "About 90 percent of all autistic children are entered into the system before the age of 6" - which he interprets to mean "Children may be diagnosed prior to 6, but they ARE NOT ENTERED INTO THE DATA SYSTEM."

Hmmm. And he consistently craps all over anyone who speaks up, speaks out, or questions dogma or the status quo. And puts them down. Quite rudely too. Wonder what that's about?

Anyone........

Can ANYONE tell me WHY and WHERE the evidence is to support the ingredients in these vaccinations?

WHY was mercury even added to them, what benefit (if ever) did they think it provided (what about the other metals, aluminum).

HOW is it that these ingredients (chick embryo, fetal tissue, monkey kidney cells, etc...) provide immunity from these diseases.

I would just like an explanation as to how the government came up with these "concotions" that personally sound more like witch spells to me.

Also does anyone know exactly what year it became so-called MANDATORY to give out these vaccinations.

I have read all of your posts and looked/scanned over the links provided. I appreciate EVERYONE'S comments, but I am still confused as to how these ingredients are helpful to our bodies.

Also, when a mother breastfeeds her infant does she, or does she not provide that child with some immunity to certain things. I have read beneficial articles about breastfeeding, would this make a difference?

That means If you look at children aged 4-6, as the state of California does, you are only seeing about 2 years of data during the thimerosal-free period. Until the children aged 0-3 right now are entered, we don't have the standard 5 year medical study group.

As I said... Anecdotal evidence.

and you forgot to include 3 years olds. you said 4-6 year olds.

The quote says they don't record children "under the age of 3". Can't leave those poor 3 year olds out you know!

I guess as the global data comes out in a few years we will know for sure.

then we can all look back and wonder if we were on the right side.




[edit on 1-2-2006 by KDX175DUEX]

I think it's a language difficulty - BSdoc's quote says, "About 90 percent of all autistic children are entered into the system before the age of 6" - which he interprets to mean "Children may be diagnosed prior to 6, but they ARE NOT ENTERED INTO THE DATA SYSTEM."

Hmmm. And he consistently craps all over anyone who speaks up, speaks out, or questions dogma or the status quo. And puts them down. Quite rudely too. Wonder what that's about?

It's probably about people like you, KDX, and bigpappadiaz who put words in my and other people's mouths, twist my words, and generally act like school children.

Tento di essere ragionevole e capire, ma no, lei agisce tuttavia rudemente. Rinuncio!

Ciao e buona sera.
~MFP

Edit:

"LOOKING FOR ANSWERS

Anyone........

Can ANYONE tell me WHY and WHERE the evidence is to support the ingredients in these vaccinations?

WHY was mercury even added to them, what benefit (if ever) did they think it provided (what about the other metals, aluminum).

HOW is it that these ingredients (chick embryo, fetal tissue, monkey kidney cells, etc...) provide immunity from these diseases.

I would just like an explanation as to how the government came up with these "concotions" that personally sound more like witch spells to me.

Also does anyone know exactly what year it became so-called MANDATORY to give out these vaccinations.

I have read all of your posts and looked/scanned over the links provided. I appreciate EVERYONE'S comments, but I am still confused as to how these ingredients are helpful to our bodies.

Also, when a mother breastfeeds her infant does she, or does she not provide that child with some immunity to certain things. I have read beneficial articles about breastfeeding, would this make a difference?"

The thimerosal was used as a preservative to prevent microbes from growing in the vaccinia stores. The chick albumin, cow serum, and simian kidney cells were are used to grow the virus since we obviously can't use humans to grow them and viruses need live tissue to survive.

[edit on 2/1/2006 by bsl4doc]

Originally posted by soficrow
[Hmmm. And he consistently craps all over anyone who speaks up, speaks out, or questions dogma or the status quo. And puts them down. Quite rudely too. Wonder what that's about?

*dodges stone thrown in glass house*

Come now. Simply because he does not accept the hysteria and Oprah like dogma is hardly a reason to accusing him of defecating on sadly mistaken beliefs. He did defend his point and quite well.