Holographic Universe & the Particle/Wave Conumdrum

I was considering starting a thread on this mind-boggling topic, but did a search and found another one, but it was in the military conpiracies area. Obviously, this is no military conspiracy, so I thought I would cut and past my comments along with ViolatoR's, here in the Cutting Edge Science Dept., where it belongs. (I have PMed ViolatoR inviting V to this discussion. ) I'm sure there are a lot of hard science folks with unique POV's that I would enjoy very much hearing from on this utterly fascinating topic.

If the science is right, forget about any other "conspiracies" people might take an interest in, this is the only factor that matters to anyone who was ever born on our planet.

A recent article in Scientific American caught my attention; Is Gravity an Illusion? When I read the entire article, I was literally blown away. I then recently picked up the excellent book , The Holographic Universe ,by Michael Talbot, and even though it was written 15 years ago, in 1991, it is an absolutely stunning theory that has a ring of truth to it, especially in light of many discoveries on the cutting edge of physics today, as the Illusion of Gravity article points out.

Originally posted by ViolatoR ...Now the idea about a holographic universe. Well it looks like physics is pointing to exactly a holographic model for reality. Take non-locality. Like stated in the previous post, a hologram (before being developed) contains all the information in every part of it. The information (picture,etc) that gets encoded to the holographic plate travels as a wave accross the whole plate, so that each part has the info. Also several different pictures can be encoded to the same plate using different lasers; then any picture and be recreated in any part of the plate by using the laser used to encode the image. Now if you look at physics, we now know that all particles ("solid" building blocks of matter) are actually waves, too. These wave-particles are always communicating with eachother through photons. When a message is sent, it is recived at the same exact time. This indicates that the distance between any two particles anywhere in the universe is Zero. So all particles technically co-exist at every point in space-time. This is due to the fact that they are also Waves, remember? And like in a holographic plate, these Waves spread out through the entire plate or universe. Therefore all information is non-local, or everywhere....

Right on, but I think I can enhance your overall point by adding a few comments. Non-locality is indeed the key issue, and physics has proven that on the subatomic level, distance is meaningless. Photons communicate over vast distances, instantaneously.

But the really interesting factor to me, according to the book, is the particle/wave conundrum. As you say, all particles are also waves, but the mindblower is that particles may only become waves when they are observed. The observer is therefore inextricably part of the experiment.
Our consciousness, may actually be creating the observable universe, because our brains are acting like holographic receivers, (and projectors, btw) interpreting what may actually be nothing more than swarms of particles, into waveform, which is what we perceive as the true reality.

: Originally posted by ViolatoR. Now, there are alot of examples of non-locality, like remote-viewing and phrophetic visions, and "ghosts," and so on. As stated by another person,
the human brain is holographic. There is a guy who had only millimeters of brain material above his spinal column, and hes a math major! Memory and all other functions have been proven to be non-local through testing. By removing everypart of a mouse's brain (up to 95% i think) scientists have shown theres no precise area for memory, or sight, and so on.

Talbot's key point is the brain works like a hologram, and so does the universe. Our brain stores information just like a hologram does, everywhere. He mentions an experiment done on a salamander. They removed the salamanders brain, then reinstalled it, backwards. Salamander resumes its normal way of life, without skipping a beat.

: Originally posted by ViolatoR Taken together, this information could lead to a hypothesis of a universal-computer or intelligently controlled or designed universe. And since all info is spread out as a wave accross the fabric of it all, a sign, or vision, could happen before or after an event that points to a global consciousness, or intelligent design.

More and more it seems, we are all part of the same "flux" if you will. The implications are truly staggering when you really think about it. Mindpower is vast and awesome. Everyone knows stories of people that use their visualizing brainpower to overcome serious medical issues. When some one has that unshakeable will to defeat even the most awful diseases, miracles do occur. On the other hand, everyone knows someone who lost the will to live, and the inevitable will always happen.

Placebos are another example of the awesome nearly unlimited power of the mind. If the mind can fool itself enough to make a placebo actually work, is it possible the combined collective consciousness of all mankind can fool our holograhic processing brains that what we perceive as reality is actually something quite different?

Neon,

I agree this is a fascinating topic. For the longest time people who have had this thought about reality were quickly dismissed since there was no scientific backing to support their view of the world. It now seems that science and metaphysics are starting to merge and about to usher in a new paradigm of viewing reality.

As you mentioned, this new way of thinking has the potential to explain a lot of "paranormal" events that were previously just scoffed at. Actually, this new way of thinking can totally change the way we live, but, that may take a while until it becomes fully engrained into the common mans psyche.

Even though we have experiments showing that non-locality exists, we have quantum physics backing this claim, and we have had many generations who previously believed in the interconnectedness of everything. This is going to be a hard pill to swallow. Just because it is so foreign to what we have been taught to believe.

How long do you think it will take for this paradigm shift to happen?
2012 maybe?

I just want to add in that there are rules to the system. Human thought may indeed effect reality, but not in a sense that we can excape the rules. Rather physics sugest we just don't know the rules yet, so we can't gauge the potential.

It is also important to note that we are dancing on the fact that how can we know how our mind and this universe work if we can't escape either and look back. There will always be some questions we can't answer because of this.

Originally posted by xEphon
Neon,

I agree this is a fascinating topic. For the longest time people who have had this thought about reality were quickly dismissed since there was no scientific backing to support their view of the world. It now seems that science and metaphysics are starting to merge and about to usher in a new paradigm of viewing reality.

So true. In fact Talbot makes a very interesting point about this right from the start of the book: The mind is addicted to it's own ideas. Or is the Earth still flat? It is very hard for folks on either side of the known/unknown fence (ex. science vs paranormal) to give up firmly held beliefs. I'm sure we can each provide personal instances where we cling to previously held beliefs, even in the face of evidence to the contrary.

Originally posted by xEphon
As you mentioned, this new way of thinking has the potential to explain a lot of "paranormal" events that were previously just scoffed at. Actually, this new way of thinking can totally change the way we live, but, that may take a while until it becomes fully engrained into the common mans psyche.

Count me in among those who scoff at much of the paranormal. I've always known that science can't explain everything, in fact whatever questions science does answer, new questions always arise. I think many from the paranormal side of things can be charlatans and strictly money seekers taking advantage of the gullible.

Yet I've always realized not everything is explainable by known science, and having seen the Amazing Kreskin years ago, I've kept an open mind. This book and concept are cracking my open mind a bit more on the paranormal. It is the science thats doing it for me though.

Originally posted by xEphon
Even though we have experiments showing that non-locality exists, we have quantum physics backing this claim, and we have had many generations who previously believed in the interconnectedness of everything. This is going to be a hard pill to swallow. Just because it is so foreign to what we have been taught to believe.

How long do you think it will take for this paradigm shift to happen?
2012 maybe?

An amazing facet of the theory is the awesome power of collective thinking. If everyone stubbornly clings to their old belief systems, the answer for them is maybe never. But if enough people do come around to this thinking, it could be sooner than we think.

I also want to point out that Talbot himself mentioned his theory is incomplete and imperfect. Since we are part of the experiment, the observed observing the observed, we will probably always not have the model down quite correctly.

Yet the fact is that we are still able to make discoveries behind our own backs, so to speak, demonstrated by the particle/wave experiment, where science was able to conclude observation was affecting the outcome.

Thought for the day: N David Mermin a physicist at Cornell pointed out in the Talbot book, that physicists come in 3 categories when it comes to the observable waveform/unobservable particle.

Small minority troubled by the philosophical implications.

Second group with elaborate reasons why they are not troubled, but with explanations that "miss the point".

Third group with no elaborate explanations, but they also refuse to say why they are not troubled by the implications.

Of course this may have changed in the last 15 years, but I would not be surprised if it has not changed all that much. We are addicted to our ideas after all.

So what you are saying is that the reality that we live in is the way it is because of the collective thoughts of humanity as a whole? That every single thing we see is affected because we observe it to be that way? The reason why the universe is the way it is, is because of us? Its a collective illusion that we have created for ourselves by our own beliefs on what should be? If so, can it be now said that when a tree falls in the woods and no-one was around to hear it, it didn't actually happen?

Its the fact that quantum physics supports these claims of non-locality and observational states, that really frightens me. I just love it how something can be one thing and another at the same time until someone looks at it, then it becomes one or the other. I think science is on the verge of something enormous.

If in fact our brains are all acting together to create this illusion of reality, what is really out there? There is something very 'matrixy' about all this.

Originally posted by Quest
I just want to add in that there are rules to the system. Human thought may indeed effect reality, but not in a sense that we can excape the rules. Rather physics sugest we just don't know the rules yet, so we can't gauge the potential.

That may not be entirely true. With the way quantum physics is headed, the rules that are in place are the rules of the observer, or to an extent the collective. Since nothing is fixed until it is observed. If we are to throw superstring into the mix, we could say that these are the rules of this dimension based on the collective of all intelligent life in this dimension. But your right that at some level there seems to be an underlying system in place. Im guessing that its consciousness and thought.

Seems more like a philosophy than a science doesnt it?
Just my $.02

Thanks for u2u'ing me the link to this thread NK.

I this topic is very interesting, and agree that science could be on the verge of something really big.

I wonder if this holographic universe theory, non locality etc.. could explain things like those collective conscious projects that use random number generators?

perhaps it could also explain karma or sowing a repaing so to speak. I think someone mentioned that the universe is an image of what we collectivelly think it is or that its like a mirror of what everyone thinks or observes it , but we are also effecting it by observing it so that takes it a whole step further or something like that.

I also was thinking about the idea of mind of matter or better yet the idea that we can will things into existence by forming a thought and impressing it into the universe I have read a few books like "As a Man thinketh" and "Think and grow rich" that try to explain this idea in a pragmatic way.
I think I might try to get a copy of Talbot's book at some point as it sounds good.


Speaking of quantum pysics does anyone want to speculate when soome will have a quantum computer? Does the govt already have one

I have been reading a liitle bit about companies making quantum compuer breatkthroughs so it makes me wonder if there is already a working one somewhere or how long it will be?

[edit on 25-1-2006 by warpboost]

Great thread, I think we help hold together reality by believing in it. We can effect matter by thought but were never taught this. Socrates said we are holograms that we are projecting from within. Sounds like the matrix, huh?

Fascinating to say the least. I just started a thread which in a round' about way has something to do with this one.
Don't want to post a link but it's titled "What is electricity EXACTLY."

Take a look at this.. Some detailed information about split photons being 'entangled'.

www.joot.com...

My question is HOW do they 'know' what each other is doing?

Err.. WHAT is behind the hologram??






[edit on 26-1-2006 by TxSecret]

Hey great thread, I love stuff like this. Anything that makes me go "Hmmm... thats interesting." Im sorry to say that most people in the world prefer to go through life with out challenging their uninformed and preconcieved notions of the world, never questioning the amazing thing we call reality.

Im not saying we should jump on every bandwagon, but at least give it some thought before you decide whether or not it fits your view of reality. Besides if there is a global consciousness, i'd like it to be an imaginative one.


An interesting thought I had while reading some of the above posts is: If we do infact affect our life, how do we affect our afterlife? I read a book about near death experiences and how they all have some similarity. One thing that most have is a "barrier" you have to cross when deciding whether to live or die. People in the past usually saw a river (perhaps with a boat-man?) and people in the present usually see a staircase or doorway, even a choice between two buttons. If there is an afterlife is its technology advancing along with ours?
Maybe the near death experience is just in our heads, originating from the Seat of the Soul located above your right ear (the area the character in Pi sticks a power drill to..), which is where near death experiences come from when electrically stimulated.
Why do all humans have an area on the brain that contains a portal to Heaven? Was that put there in evolution through our constant obsession with death? Or was it put there by God, as a way of dialing heaven in case of death.
This is less scientific and more philosophic, but I feel that humans left God a long time ago for science; and are just now comming full circle in being able to explain reality through science instead of religion as we did in the past.


Quantum computers: I read a book on cryptography several years ago and near the end the author stated that unbreakable encryption would be acheived with quantum computers which are expected in a few years. A year or so after I read an article about the first quantum computer had been built. Then just a month ago I read another article that they are going to be built soon?? So if "they" indeed did buid one for government use it was probably classified, or the first article was incorrect. Either way you should be expecting quantum computing very soon. It will be exciting to be able to solve any equation instantly since all possible answers are tried at the same time.


Quantum physics and the death of Causality:

I have recently finished a book about time travel. Its a fact based book revealing the many scientific advances through the years that could one day lead (or already have lead) to time travel. One example of time travel happening naturally was in a variation of the famous double-slit experiment:

Originally posted by ViolatoR
In 2001 Huw Price at the Univ. of Sydney discovered that information moves from future to past as well as the normal flow we think of. Ill try to paraphrase this from a book.

At the quantum level all energy waves have 2 parts; an "offer wave" emited by a particle (a photon of light for instance) which travels into the future along the normal path of time. This wave always interacts with a second wave coming in the opposite direction, future to past, and this is called the "echo wave" because it echos the signature of the first wave only in the other direction. This interaction between the two waves determines the reality we see in the present. The interaction is known as the "handshake" between the waves.

In the double slit experiment light is sent forward and travels through both slits because at a quantum level all possibilities have to be explored. Two offer waves are sent out. When a slit is closed the echo wave knows that it only travels through one slit, so only one echo wave is sent back. The offer wave and echo wave are reinforced in one slit, but the offer wave has traveled through both slits. The handshake crystalizes the reality of one slit being open. (page 220 in "Breaking the time barrier" by Jenny Randles)

The fact that theres only one echo wave shows that the event of one slit being closed was deteremined in the future, and this information had been traveling backwards in time to reach the moment that one slit was closed and the echo wave met its offer wave.

So here is an event happening because it has already happened.

(Sorry but i wanna throw something else in: an experiment used pre recorded tapes of equal number of random lengths of pleasant and unpleasant sounds. These tapes were sent to people and they were told to concentrate on hearing more pleasant sounds. When the tapes were sent back, they had more pleasant sounds on them then unpleasant ones. The test subjects had altered the recording of sounds on these tapes which was carried out weeks before they ever heard the tape!)

After reading this chapter of the time travel book I started thinking about the scene in the Matrix 2, or 3 (Yes, a matrix example, how original!) when the Oracle was sitting with Neo on the bench. She told him that he is not here to make a choice, because he has already made the choice, he is only here to understand why he made the choice. At the time the movie was riddled with mumbo-jumbo, but this line started to make sense.

If "Echo Waves" are indeed comming at us from our future, then right now a wave is being sent towards me and will get here when an event im not even aware of yet becomes reality. So information is traveling from future to past and we are affecting our past just as much as our future. The future me is doing somthing which is sending a wave backwards in time and affecting a decision im about to make. When a future event happens I will do whatever I have to do now to make it happen. And I will only have the option of figuring out why I made that choice, just like Neo.

All right its been fun, g'night.

(By the way, thanks NeonKnight for your insights to my posts, I enjoy reading posts by people who share the same feeling of Awe when contemplating "the meaning of it all.")

[edit on 1/26/2006 by ViolatoR]

If the distance "between" any two particles in the universe is actually Zero, (that is to say, there is no distance at all since they are they same Wave); then the time required to travel from one particle, a discrete point space, to the other particle, also a discrete point in space, must be Zero as well! A basic definition of Non-Locality.

Thus, the theory of a Holograohic Universe and Peter Lynds theory on the non-existence of Time as a discrete, measureable quantity are mutually supportive and re-inforcing.

Therefore, if Time and Distance do not exist (except as convienient concepts for the as yet under-developed human mind/perception), the "reality" of "C", the supposed speed of light as a limitation, must also be an illusion.

The holographic universe thus explains the existence of not only a variety of Psi phenomena, but also offers the possibility of "Faster Than Light" travel, albeit, since no actual distance is traversed, the term "travel" may be debateable.

And so we may also finally arrive at a explaination as to how those pesky ET's are able to span the Stars in the wink of an eye.

[edit on 26-1-2006 by Bhadhidar]

[edit on 26-1-2006 by Bhadhidar]

Originally posted by ViolatoR
If "Echo Waves" are indeed comming at us from our future, then right now a wave is being sent towards me and will get here when an event im not even aware of yet becomes reality. So information is traveling from future to past and we are affecting our past just as much as our future. The future me is doing somthing which is sending a wave backwards in time and affecting a decision im about to make. When a future event happens I will do whatever I have to do now to make it happen. And I will only have the option of figuring out why I made that choice, just like Neo.

Reading that made me think of work yesterday.
I had a serious case of deja vu while talking to someone, so much so, that I could have scripted the next 2 minutes or so.
I'm sure that you all have had the same experience at some point. Anyway, your post made me wonder if cases of deja vu are just really an interference pattern of sorts between our future memories, or the "echo wave," coinciding/clashing with the present moment, causing a rememberance of the events that about to take place which manifest as the feeling of deja vu

I finished the Talbot book last night and I'd like to add a few more comments on his conclusions.

He credits two people for being the main architects of the theory:

David Bohm University of London quantum physicist and protege of Einstein.
Karl Pribram Stanford University neurophysiologist

I was extremely impressed by the facts on the medical side of the theory. Our brains are very different than computers when it comes to memory for example. A computer can break up info into packets, and then distribute the packets throughout the hard drive. But the brain does not break information up. Instead it stores the infromation everywhere, throughout the brain. Just like a hologram.

The reason a hologram works is interference patterns. Like ripples on a pond, the interference patterns capture the image of an object, when laser light is bounced off the object. The amazing thing about a holographic film is that a broken piece of it contains all the information required to recreate the whole image.

Pribram discovered that the neurons in the brain are packed densely together, creating an endless and kaleidoscopic array of interference/waveform patterns, just like a hologram. Vision works in the same way, proven by an experiment on a cat's optical nerves. He severed up to 98% of the cat's optical nerves, and the cat was still able to perform complex visual tasks.

The quantum physicist Bohm descibes the holographic universe as having an "underlying, deeper order of existence". He terms this deeper subatomic level of reality as the implicate (which means "enfolded") order, and our own level of reality is explicate or "unfolded" order.

Both levels are equally real, so in that sense, this theory is emphatically NOT The Matrix.

I mentioned in my first post the article from Scientific American, The Illusion of Gravity. The author speculates that there must be a location for the holographic "plate" that is the template for our explicate reality. Where is it? The article claims the likely location is the "edge of infinity", or the outside of the ever expanding "bubble" of our visible universe.

This is what is meant by the illusion of gravity, in this theory, reality is projected from the 2 dimensional "Flatland" at the edge of the universe.

Everyone here would devour the Talbot book like I did, but I also would like to highly recommend some more Scientific American reading for all those interested in this subject. The recent "Special Edition" entitled Frontiers of Physics has another interesting take on the Holographic Universe and another mindbender about time, which states that the past, present and future are all just illusions, probably brought about by consciousness.

I'd like to respond to a few of your excellent observations at another time. Thanks to all for providing some insights, everyone here has given me something else to ponder.

(...now that I'm in full control of my holographic mind, a chance to use it....)

(My yings are actually yangs)

Originally posted by NeonKnight

But the really interesting factor to me, according to the book, is the particle/wave conundrum. As you say, all particles are also waves, but the mindblower is that particles may only become waves when they are observed. The observer is therefore inextricably part of the experiment.

Our consciousness, may actually be creating the observable universe, because our brains are acting like holographic receivers, (and projectors, btw) interpreting what may actually be nothing more than swarms of particles, into waveform, which is what we perceive as the true reality.

(...I'll just use the theory of nonlocality and reach into the past with my non-local mind and...there, no one will ever know.....)

Originally posted by NeonKnight
But the really interesting factor to me, according to the book, is the wave/particle conundrum. As you say, all particles are also waves, but the mindblower is that waves may only become particles when they are observed. The observer is therefore inextricably part of the experiment.

Our consciousness, may actually be creating the observable universe, because our brains are acting like holographic receivers, (and projectors, btw) interpreting what may actually be nothing more than swarms of waves, into particle-form, which is what we perceive as the true reality.

Another key way of looking at things, according to Bohm, is considering a rather static Holographic Universe as a dynamic, everchanging, enfolding and unfolding Holomovement....

Before I read the Holographic Universe, I had read several books on Zen Buddhism. Interestingly enough, the authors used several examples from quantum physics and particle experiments as analogies to what spiritual gurus have been saying for thousands of years. I'd like to go into some examples but I lent my books out.. Basic ideas of universal oneness and so forth. I find it exciting to think that science my confirm many aspects of spirituality.

Originally posted by Toasty
.... If so, can it be now said that when a tree falls in the woods and no-one was around to hear it, it didn't actually happen?

The tree actually does fall, but the sound is only heard by the other trees.

Originally posted by Toasty
If in fact our brains are all acting together to create this illusion of reality, what is really out there? There is something very 'matrixy' about all this.

That is the interesting question, isn't it? According to Talbot and others, whats out there, (the implicate or enfolded order) is the foundation for"what is really out there." But since literally everything in our universe is also represented by the implicate order, the swarms of particles that our minds interpret as reality are just as real as everything else. Not really like "The Matrix" at all, since the world Neo thought he lived in was an illusion. Both the implicate order and the explicate order are just as real, they are mutually supporting versions of "true reality".

Originally posted by warpboost

I wonder if this holographic universe theory, non locality etc.. could explain things like those collective conscious projects that use random number generators?

Talbot does discuss the REG random number projects investigated by researchers at Princeton. They concluded that the results do indicate some kind of psychokinesis or PK. They believe that since all physical processes possess the wave/particle duality we are talking about, it is reasonable to assume that consciousness does as well. When it is particalized, consciousness would appear localized within our heads. But when it is in waveform, consciousness, like all wave phenomena, could produce non-local effects, like influencing random number generators or even the gremlin-like effect of some people who seem to "jinx" complicated apparatus or machinery.

My latest project is to profitably use my new PK powers to influence the random number generator at my states' lottery. I will be using the vast mental "resonance" my consciousness has assumed as a result of the super-intelligent information provided by all the good posters in this thread. Thank you all.

Originally posted by warpboost
I also was thinking about the idea of mind of matter or better yet the idea that we can will things into existence by forming a thought and impressing it into the universe

I have read a few books like "As a Man thinketh" and "Think and grow rich" that try to explain this idea in a pragmatic way.
I think I might try to get a copy of Talbot's book at some point as it sounds good.

The Napoleon Hill book, Think and Grow Rich is by far, one of the best books ever written. I've used some of the visualizing processes Hill describes in my own business career, and I personally know people who have fully implemented Hill's ideas in their business and personal lives with tremendous success.

Definitely get the Michael Talbot book, you will not be disappointed.

Originally posted by warpboost
Speaking of quantum pysics does anyone want to speculate when soome will have a quantum computer? Does the govt already have one

I believe this would mean providing a holographic method of thought to computers. Is that a road we want to travel down? Artificial Intelligence? Perhaps we can think about nightmares like The Matrix as reality, if AI gets out of our control.

I read a book by the creator of the Dilbert cartoons. In it he mentions that he used positive affermations (much like the guy in What The Bleep...) and said to himself that he would be the most sucessful comic writer, and I think he made it. In fact I forgot to flip to todays cartoon on my Dilbert off-the-wall calendar... be right back.

Hehehe that Dilbert..

Anyways I read somewhere a while back that computers are at the intelligence level of insects right now. In maybe 20 years or less they should be at the level of 3 or 4 year olds, about the same as chimps I think. And 50 years down the line? Who knows. Right about when most of us will be dying, we could be talking to a robot at our bedsides who is consoling us with passages from our favorite religious texts (if religion isnt illigal by then).

Quantum computers, and the utillization of light will lead to computers that are perhaps a trillion times faster than today, with memory in the thousands (or more) of terabytes. I dont know all the details on using light to store information, but light has been slowed down and even stopped dead in its tracks in labs.

Ill give you some quotes from:

Breaking The Time Barrier (by: Jenny Randles)
A more refined experiment (referring to an earlier experiment w/ linked particles across time and space) at the Austrian National University in Canberra in June 2002 extended the research and transferred many photons of light at once instantly through space. Ping Koy Lam, who masterminded this test, was upbeat about its potential uses for computing. By sending data this way, he believes we will boost the ability of computers by many orders of magnitude in the coming decade.. he was less convinced that we would ever send living beings throught space in a teleport machine.

Quantum entanglement transmits information, not things. It adapts distant particles so that they can mimic the events that you trigger. The "copy" of the data formed at the distant location is a re-creation brought about through the entangled link through hidden dimensions across space-time.

....few pages later...

...some computer programs have been run attempting to extrapolate on the current rate of progress of this technology ('this technology' being the linkage of our senses to computers to "relive" past events, or virtual tmie travel, and worlds). They reveal that by the year 2100 computers could reach such a level that a re-creation of an entire solar system would be possible in such minute detail that not even scientific instruments could detect a difference from the real solar system. Indeed, with a truly complete simulation, the distinction between the real and the imaginary loses the significance that it has for us today.
After all, everything that we know about how our senses percieve the universe says that we distil our reality out from the energy fields, quantum foam fluctuation, and statistical chaos at the heart of subatomic space. We apparently create reality in our minds as much as we simply observe it. We are architects of what we see, touch, and feel within the "real" world.

Anyone here read Snowcrash? Really good 'cyber-punk' book about the future where people spend alot of time surfing the Metaverse which is like a 3D realistic world, though not an entire solar system, even in the story a virus is spreading that actually affects the people. Actually it reminds me of the episode of Futurama where they surf the web and play a video game, and Bender goes into chat rooms disguised as hot girls to steal money. That would be pretty cool I think, I mean in the future when theres overpopulation and overpollution, a virtual world might be a nicer place to live. Kinda sad in a way, but the video games would rock!

One thought I had during the time between Matrix 2 and 3, when everyone was wondering how Neo stoped the sentinals: I figured that if people evolved computers to the point of AI and the AI took over and stuck all the poeple in a vitrual world set 10 years in the past.. Then the people in the virtual world would inevitably evolve their computers (in 10 years or so) to a point where they create AI, and the AI takes over again. Only this time they are already in a virtual world, then the virtual AI imprisons the virtual people in another Matrix inside the first Matrix, and sets the people's civilization back 10 years. Then in 10 years inside the simulation the people would create AI and it would all happen again and again until theres an infinite level of Matrixs nested within eachother. That would suck, but how would you know?

Many things are misunderstood.

Originally posted by NeonKnight
A recent article in Scientific American caught my attention; Is Gravity an Illusion? When I read the entire article, I was literally blown away.

Basically the article debated that gravity is not a force by itself, but a result of other forces acting on a lower level. The "illusion" part refers to thinking gravity as an autonomous force, whereas it is not an autonomous force.

These wave-particles are always communicating with eachother through photons.

Actually photons are themselves waves/particles.

When a message is sent, it is recived at the same exact time.

No! information can not travel faster then the speed of light. The fact that two particles can be entangled over a great distance does not mean that this entanglement can be used to transmit information. The explanation is long and boring and I am not sure I understand it either, so I will not try to explain it here; I guess it is available online though.

This indicates that the distance between any two particles anywhere in the universe is Zero. So all particles technically co-exist at every point in space-time.

Indeed, but the distance you refer to is not the spacetime continuum, but the "subspace".

This is due to the fact that they are also Waves, remember?

Not at all! quantum entanglement has nothing to do with the wave nature of particles. Quantum entanglement is a mystery.

and physics has proven that on the subatomic level, distance is meaningless. Photons communicate over vast distances, instantaneously.

no they don't.

But the really interesting factor to me, according to the book, is the particle/wave conundrum. As you say, all particles are also waves, but the mindblower is that particles may only become waves when they are observed. The observer is therefore inextricably part of the experiment.

The real reason effects are visible when they are measured is because we only have photons to measure them. But if there is a lower level particles, then these particles are affected by our observation, and thus they produce the result we see.

Our consciousness, may actually be creating the observable universe, because our brains are acting like holographic receivers, (and projectors, btw) interpreting what may actually be nothing more than swarms of particles, into waveform, which is what we perceive as the true reality.

Now you make the big irrational jump from quantum physics to the paranormal. Conciousness is nothing more than the computer (= our brain) observing itself. And that is the result of the great capacity of our brain. Animals do not have the computational capacity of ours, so they do not have conciousness developed on the same level, but they participate in the exact same world that we do.

like remote-viewing and phrophetic visions, and "ghosts," and so on.

All these are products of human imagination never proven under lab conditions.

the human brain is holographic.

Obviously you have no idea how the human brain works. The human brain's functionality arises from pattern matching. It is basically a neural network with pattern matching and a feedback loop where each experience is stored inside it in order to be used in the next step. And the only purpose of this thing is to maintain life.

There are artificial brains in labs consisting of 10,000 neurons (software simulated) that can perform optical recognition, for example. Of course, the human brain has over 200 billion neurons.

In other words, the functionality of the brain comes from molecules and not atomic or sub-atomic particles.

Furthermore, the brain has nothing different from all other matter. If the universe was created by "holographic brains", then starts, for example, could be counted as brains, since they contain the same materials as brains.

There is a guy who had only millimeters of brain material above his spinal column, and hes a math major!

yeah, right. Rumours...the power of the internet today.

Memory and all other functions have been proven to be non-local through testing. By removing everypart of a mouse's brain (up to 95% i think) scientists have shown theres no precise area for memory, or sight, and so on.

Ha ha, you couldn't even be more deceived. You are ignoring the vast library of brain damages recorded that have affected memory, speech and brain functions.

You are also insulting people with Altzheimer.

They removed the salamanders brain, then reinstalled it, backwards. Salamander resumes its normal way of life, without skipping a beat.

Backwards??? what does that mean?

More and more it seems, we are all part of the same "flux" if you will. The implications are truly staggering when you really think about it. Mindpower is vast and awesome.

Yeah, bull$hit, deception and ignorance reigns supreme.

Threads like this makes me worried that humanity will not survive, thrive and conquest the galaxy. We are doomed, since we have failed to educate people even on the most basic of levels.

What next? Earth is flat?

Actually nevermind, those points arent even worthy of counter arguments



[edit on 28-1-2006 by xEphon]

Hey Master P

I don't bother posting in threads that I have no interest in.Why the hell don't you do the same?

You attack points made by other people, far more informed on these ideas than either of us, with nothing more than a typical troll attitude.

Unless you think you know more about physics than Dabid Bohm, or more about the brain than Karl Pribram, you can take your troll attitude and stick it where the sun don't shine.