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Holographic Universe & the Particle/Wave Conumdrum

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posted on Jan, 28 2006 @ 03:32 PM
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Neon..... Someone liked my nick and decided to clone???

Interesting....

NeoN HaZe......




posted on Jan, 28 2006 @ 04:00 PM
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These wave-particles are always communicating with eachother through photons. When a message is sent, it is recived at the same exact time. This indicates that the distance between any two particles anywhere in the universe is Zero. So all particles technically co-exist at every point in space-time.

I'd have to agree with masterp on this one, it threw me for a loop too.
How can something which uses photons to communicate, do it across the Universe instantaniously when light is not instantly here or there, but has a speed limit?
Unless according to the holographic theory it can travel instantly.



posted on Jan, 28 2006 @ 10:43 PM
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That's because they're considering that there might be another factor in play that we are not aware of and cannot observe.

David Bohm offered an analogy for it:

www.imagical.com...


We have an aquarium with one fish inside. We also have two tv cameras positioned on two sides of the aquarium — one at the front, one at the side.

Suppose there was another room with two tv monitors. Our reality, for the sake of this example, consists only of these two monitors. We cannot perceive the aquarium in the other room. Looking at the two monitors, we assume that we're looking at two separate fish, both of which appear at different angels, an effect generated by the two cameras.


Suddenly, one fish moves. At the same time, the second fish moves. It is quite logical for us to assume that there is a connection between the two. There must be some kind of signal travelling between them. In truth, there is no signal or communication occurring. On another level of reality, the reality of the aquarium which is concealed from our senses, these two fish are actually one entity.


More info on Karl Pribram's theory of the brain

[edit on 28-1-2006 by TheBandit795]



posted on Jan, 28 2006 @ 10:51 PM
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yeah. i got that book a month ago and it is the best thing ive read in a long time. i love it and it explains a lot. i recommend it to everyone.
thanks for the thread. whoever started it. ive been wanting to post so much from this book, but i havent felt like it. you type one thing and then you want to type the whole book, its so great.
i jump on the psi and ki newbies on some forums. when they try to preach certain things and they have yet to read some good theories, and philosophy that would lead them to a better understanding of the pyschic powers they admire or they supernatural skills of some of the martial arts masters they also admire



posted on Jan, 29 2006 @ 04:58 AM
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I dont think some people realize that we're not posting our own theorys on the universe here. These are things that are being found out in a lab somewhere. Quantum entanglement (or the instant transfer of information) has been proven many times, even with the teleportation of photons of light over a distance instantly. (The teleportation was really using information to rebuild the photons somewhere else instantly, through the hidden dimensions.)

Using 3 flat dimensions it is obviously hard to imagine how things could travel from one side of the universe to the other instantly, but it happens whether or not you believe it does. Holographic models have been shown to be a better explainer of the "unexplained" than classic laws of physics. Living in a universe where the thought in your head could materialize in another galaxy instantly, we come to realize that we are all connected (possibly by 6 or so hidden tiny dimensions) and distance truely is meaningless.

Unless a better theory comes along than can explain everything, we are stuck with this. If MasterP can explain every example in The Holographic Universe using his own singular theory, and it makes more sense, then I would be glad to discuss his theorys here instead of the holographic ones. Rather, we should make a new thread.

Seeing as how a vast portion of the book in question discusses the "paranormal," we shouldnt throw it out because MasterP is scared of ghosts. The idea was to find a theory of physics that can explain the paranormal, instead of lableing it an X-File and sweeping it under the rug.

Instead of saying "no, they dont," when they most certainly do; MasterP should have given an example of why they dont. ("They" being the very photons of light sharing information instantly as shown in the teleportation experiment I previously talked about.) Since we can see, using science, that I was correct, this point is moot of course. Perhaps we can discuss other points later.

(Where I got the idea about having minimal brain tissue: mmmm... Brains!. Oh i cant believe you actually wrote "Backwards??? what does that mean?" Ill tell you now, it means the opposite of forwards.



posted on Jan, 29 2006 @ 07:40 AM
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Originally posted by Neon Haze
Neon..... Someone liked my nick and decided to clone???

Interesting....

NeoN HaZe......




NeonKnight
Registered: 12/7/2004

Neon Haze
Registered: 2/24/2005


Its a good thing we live in a non-local universe where time is an illusion. Otherwise, I might accuse someone else of plagarizing screennames....



posted on Jan, 29 2006 @ 08:17 AM
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Originally posted by ViolatoR

An interesting thought I had while reading some of the above posts is: If we do infact affect our life, how do we affect our afterlife? I read a book about near death experiences and how they all have some similarity. One thing that most have is a "barrier" you have to cross when deciding whether to live or die. People in the past usually saw a river (perhaps with a boat-man?) and people in the present usually see a staircase or doorway, even a choice between two buttons. If there is an afterlife is its technology advancing along with ours?


I realize it may have been some time since you read the Talbot book, but he does address the the NDE issue. My interpretation is it seems as if the "afterlife" or maybe "prelife" is affecting our conscious minds more than we affect the afterlife. What he is saying ( and I'm certainly a bit more skeptical on some of these paranormal theories) is that we pre-plan our lives before we are born into this world. I think he thinks it is very like what the Hindus' believe, that we are born to increase our spiritual awareness, to try and raise our consciousness to a new level. When we dream, our brains are much closer to the subconscious/implicate order, where it is much easier for the spirit world to contact us.

Dreaming is really an experience on the implicate level, a separate but just as real reality.
(My subconscious is struggling with this one, but my waking brain fully accepts it.)




Maybe the near death experience is just in our heads, originating from the Seat of the Soul located above your right ear (the area the character in Pi sticks a power drill to..), which is where near death experiences come from when electrically stimulated.
Why do all humans have an area on the brain that contains a portal to Heaven? Was that put there in evolution through our constant obsession with death? Or was it put there by God, as a way of dialing heaven in case of death.
This is less scientific and more philosophic, but I feel that humans left God a long time ago for science; and are just now comming full circle in being able to explain reality through science instead of religion as we did in the past.


I was a bit surprised that Talbot ties in the paranormal so strongly to his theories, but one point he makes on this I am coming around to more and more.

All ancient civilizations have this "shaman" tradition, someone who is able to harness mental powers more easily than most people. They have maintained a strong connection to the "pre-life" consciousness, while modern civilization has severed many of these connections.

But we are starting to come around to the power of the visualizing holographic mind. It is very exciting to think, as someone else mentioned earlier, that science and the mystical are beginning to come around full circle.



posted on Jan, 29 2006 @ 08:40 AM
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Originally posted by Quest
I just want to add in that there are rules to the system. Human thought may indeed effect reality, but not in a sense that we can excape the rules. Rather physics sugest we just don't know the rules yet, so we can't gauge the potential.

It is also important to note that we are dancing on the fact that how can we know how our mind and this universe work if we can't escape either and look back. There will always be some questions we can't answer because of this.


Excellent point!



posted on Jan, 30 2006 @ 04:04 PM
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Originally posted by ViolatoR
I dont think some people realize that we're not posting our own theorys on the universe here.


Indeed, but we got to respect what science has already established so far.



Quantum entanglement (or the instant transfer of information) has been proven many times


Indeed. But matter can not be teleported.



even with the teleportation of photons of light over a distance instantly.


It's not teleportation, it is replication of state through quantum-entangled particles.



Using 3 flat dimensions it is obviously hard to imagine how things could travel from one side of the universe to the other instantly, but it happens whether or not you believe it does.


My personal and unscientific belief (it's only a belief!) is that it would be possible for humans to explore the universe in the future. But this does not mean I have to violate any known physics or support obsurd concepts like photons travelling instantly from one place to another.



Holographic models have been shown to be a better explainer of the "unexplained" than classic laws of physics.


So have superstring models. But both are unproven.



Living in a universe where the thought in your head could materialize in another galaxy instantly, we come to realize that we are all connected (possibly by 6 or so hidden tiny dimensions) and distance truely is meaningless.


Until someone actually travels to another galaxy instantly, please hold that thought.



Unless a better theory comes along than can explain everything, we are stuck with this.


Here is a theory for you: I DO NOT KNOW.



If MasterP can explain every example in The Holographic Universe using his own singular theory, and it makes more sense, then I would be glad to discuss his theorys here instead of the holographic ones. Rather, we should make a new thread.


But this thread does not discuss holographic theories from a scientific point of view. It is just a wild goose chase: from particles and the nature of the universe we jump to paranormal events.

Does the word "charlatan" mean anything to us?



Seeing as how a vast portion of the book in question discusses the "paranormal,"


Exactly. Hocus pocus. Superstition. Things we imagined. Charlatanism.



we shouldnt throw it out because MasterP is scared of ghosts.


The only reason you should throw it out is because the "paranormal" stuff severely violates any scientific principles that exist...not because of me.



The idea was to find a theory of physics that can explain the paranormal, instead of lableing it an X-File and sweeping it under the rug.


but in order to explain the paranormal, you have to prove it that it exists. The paranormal has failed to show up in any control experiment though.



Instead of saying "no, they dont," when they most certainly do;


Of course providing proof is out of the question, isn't it?



MasterP should have given an example of why they dont. ("They" being the very photons of light sharing information instantly as shown in the teleportation experiment I previously talked about.)


Hey, do you want me to do the research for you? every article about quantum teleportation in the web speaks about how quantum teleportation of state can happen, but the destination particle must already be there. Here is a wikipedia article (there are thousands more):

en.wikipedia.org...

So if there are two quantum particles that are entangled, information can be transmitted over them, but a particle can not be teleported like in Star Trek.

This has absolutely nothing to do with paranormal events; in fact, it renders paranormal events impossible.



(Where I got the idea about having minimal brain tissue: mmmm... Brains!.


Of course ignoring the millions of patients with Alzheimer's or memory loss is only conventient for you...



Oh i cant believe you actually wrote "Backwards??? what does that mean?" Ill tell you now, it means the opposite of forwards.


Nice reply. But the brain has specific connectors for its sensory inputs and outputs. You can not connect those backwards or connect different connectors with different equipment. You can not connect an optical nerve to an ear, for example.



posted on Jan, 30 2006 @ 05:14 PM
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Whats hard for me to accept is that if reality is holographic then as beings existing in this reality we to are holograms and Im sorry but I just seem incredibly real and planted on solid ground. Im not saying its all not a hologram im saying its just hard to accept.



posted on Jan, 31 2006 @ 10:10 AM
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I often wonder if these far out theories are just more theories piggy-backing on other far-out theories and it builds on itself like a ponzi scheme.
Sort of like scientists getting carried away.
All this stuff about other dimensions and whatever is nice to imagine, but beyond imagination it gets hard to believe at times, "I don't know" is a nice answer to everything, even god.

And yes, things are pretty solid and real, If I get hit by a rock, it hurts.

All this stuff is built from the double slit experiment, perhaps we should focus on that original experiment, just so we can get a better grip on this.

I do find these theories interesting, but are they true?

'I don't know'?



www.colorado.edu...
Hmmm, just found this, seems very good (and interactive!)
Be back soon!

Hmmm, not finished, to be continued...
more...
micro.magnet.fsu.edu...

[edit on 31-1-2006 by Toadmund]



posted on Jan, 31 2006 @ 12:35 PM
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Toadmund. The rock is not as solid as it seems. Solidness is an illusion. First of all, the rock is 99% empty space, nothing. All atoms are 99% nothing. Furthermore you have protons, neutrons and electrons and other subatomic particles which constantly appear in and out of exsistence, act like either waves or particles.



posted on Jan, 31 2006 @ 12:47 PM
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Yes, I know, I consider ourselves pure energy.
I take quite an interest in this stuff, but for the sake of argument, I'd like in this case to throw a wrench in the gears and say "Hey! Wait a minute"!.

I want to read some more on the slit experiment, my two links are merely an intro, not really quantum stuff. I am too tired now so I'll learn more later when I can think better



posted on Jan, 31 2006 @ 05:32 PM
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There's no such thing as pure energy, any more than there exists pure 6 inches long.

"Pure energy": that's a bad sci-fi (Star Trek-era) phrase. Is that "virgin" energY?

Energy is a useful quantification for assessing various physical
dynamics and reactions, the physics taking place in the realm of electrons, nucleons,
photons and all the other discovered (and undiscovered) elementary
components of the Universe.

Energy is not "here" nor "there" nor ever "pure".



posted on Jan, 31 2006 @ 10:07 PM
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Ummmmm.......I dont know crap about physics so life is what you make it hologram or not its what we got.



posted on Feb, 1 2006 @ 03:05 AM
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Originally posted by masterp

Originally posted by ViolatoR
I dont think some people realize that we're not posting our own theorys on the universe here.


Indeed, but we got to respect what science has already established so far.



Quantum entanglement (or the instant transfer of information) has been proven many times


Indeed. But matter can not be teleported.



even with the teleportation of photons of light over a distance instantly.


It's not teleportation, it is replication of state through quantum-entangled particles.



Using 3 flat dimensions it is obviously hard to imagine how things could travel from one side of the universe to the other instantly, but it happens whether or not you believe it does.


My personal and unscientific belief (it's only a belief!) is that it would be possible for humans to explore the universe in the future. But this does not mean I have to violate any known physics or support obsurd concepts like photons travelling instantly from one place to another.



Holographic models have been shown to be a better explainer of the "unexplained" than classic laws of physics.


So have superstring models. But both are unproven.



Living in a universe where the thought in your head could materialize in another galaxy instantly, we come to realize that we are all connected (possibly by 6 or so hidden tiny dimensions) and distance truely is meaningless.


Until someone actually travels to another galaxy instantly, please hold that thought.



Unless a better theory comes along than can explain everything, we are stuck with this.


Here is a theory for you: I DO NOT KNOW.



If MasterP can explain every example in The Holographic Universe using his own singular theory, and it makes more sense, then I would be glad to discuss his theorys here instead of the holographic ones. Rather, we should make a new thread.


But this thread does not discuss holographic theories from a scientific point of view. It is just a wild goose chase: from particles and the nature of the universe we jump to paranormal events.

Does the word "charlatan" mean anything to us?



Seeing as how a vast portion of the book in question discusses the "paranormal,"


Exactly. Hocus pocus. Superstition. Things we imagined. Charlatanism.



we shouldnt throw it out because MasterP is scared of ghosts.


The only reason you should throw it out is because the "paranormal" stuff severely violates any scientific principles that exist...not because of me.



The idea was to find a theory of physics that can explain the paranormal, instead of lableing it an X-File and sweeping it under the rug.


but in order to explain the paranormal, you have to prove it that it exists. The paranormal has failed to show up in any control experiment though.



Instead of saying "no, they dont," when they most certainly do;


Of course providing proof is out of the question, isn't it?



MasterP should have given an example of why they dont. ("They" being the very photons of light sharing information instantly as shown in the teleportation experiment I previously talked about.)


Hey, do you want me to do the research for you? every article about quantum teleportation in the web speaks about how quantum teleportation of state can happen, but the destination particle must already be there. Here is a wikipedia article (there are thousands more):

en.wikipedia.org...

So if there are two quantum particles that are entangled, information can be transmitted over them, but a particle can not be teleported like in Star Trek.

This has absolutely nothing to do with paranormal events; in fact, it renders paranormal events impossible.



(Where I got the idea about having minimal brain tissue: mmmm... Brains!.


Of course ignoring the millions of patients with Alzheimer's or memory loss is only conventient for you...



Oh i cant believe you actually wrote "Backwards??? what does that mean?" Ill tell you now, it means the opposite of forwards.


Nice reply. But the brain has specific connectors for its sensory inputs and outputs. You can not connect those backwards or connect different connectors with different equipment. You can not connect an optical nerve to an ear, for example.





I have read alot of replys like this one, where a person breaks down a huge discussion into a few lines and picks each one apart. It takes up alot of room and usually leads nowhere. In that huge post you didnt disagree with me unless it was a case of semantics.

I didnt says particles appear out of nowhere in some magical teleportation. Thats what the frigging experiment was called. I even said it was quantum entanglement, Why would you waste the time to disagree with something I didnt say in the first place!?!?! "Quantum entanglement transmits information, not things"



posted on Feb, 1 2006 @ 12:34 PM
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Well violator I cant say If I agree or not but way to argue! Dont let em slice you apart, you seemed to just be quoting some scientist work the other seemed to just insert opinion based on speculation. I have heard many different theories on this and all I can say is that in all my years I have learned that just about anything is possible especially with science.



posted on Feb, 7 2006 @ 05:57 AM
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Originally posted by SoLaR513
...I have learned that just about anything is possible especially with science.


Ill agree to that! These darn scientists have left me spending hours pondering the amazing discoveries in science and the future we are heading towards as new advances in science are made every day.



posted on Feb, 7 2006 @ 10:25 AM
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mbkennel said:



There's no such thing as pure energy, any more than there exists pure 6 inches long.

What I meant is that matter is energy, and energy matter.

Protons
Neutrons
Electrons

All a form of energy.



posted on Jun, 9 2008 @ 04:24 PM
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Hmm, I was wondering why this post didnt have reply since 2006?
I found it really interesting and wanted to learn more about this !
Maybe we could continu this thread?
Please...



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