Beyond AI today! "The Beast"?

Wow so if humans try to better themselves then they are going against god (only if he exists though.)
And its also possible humans wouldnt become 'sub-human' the newer people may become freaks or maybe society will have evolved may then and people will accept each other, whats it like to have no trust in humanity?

This is a cool thread, it has my mind going overtime.

Originally posted by IgnoranceIsntBlisss
1. Consciousness
My research seems to imply that consciousness is based on experience. Would you say that’s true?

I agree we do rely on sense data for knowledge (the key to consciousness), but knowledge also requires reason. You can't go from an experience straight to conciousness. A camera experiences taking a photo... so. I agree that a computer can be given the ability to develop reason, I heard that a computer designed the sim card in your mobile phone.
Only by having freedom can the machine have conciousness. If it is designed for a purpose it is limited to what it is allowed to experience. Imagine your computer, its bound to its limits, or do you think because it has experiences it could have conciousness in some form. Yet if its created with no limits in its code it can develop its own style, its own likes and dislikes, gain memory of its own; then it could be said to appear human. I dont think we can know if a robot really experiences. Just like I can't know if everyone else is a zombie (noone experiences except me) or a mutant (everyones sense data are different).


Now I'd also like to point out Ghost in the Machine. If your going to watch it have the subtitles and japanese soundtrack, someone (I wanna know who) changed the dialouge in the english soundtrack so you lose some pretty interesting ideas. I won't spoil the movie, but after watching number 2 last night I'd tell anyone to get their hands on them.

It just raised the issue in my mind of why we would want robots. Fair enough they are cool in movies but apart from that... Its just the quest for immortality, and it'll only end in infamy.

www.darpa.mil...
Biologically-Inspired Cognitive Architectures (BICA)

www.darpa.mil...
Architectures for Cognitive Information Processing (ACIP)

www.darpa.mil...
Real-World Reasoning (REAL)

www.darpa.mil...
Self-Regenerative Systems (SRS)


www.darpa.mil...
High Productivity Computing Systems (HPCS)

*Mod edit to trim out copy-paste. Please link to articles and then give us your opinion of the information provided. It's not necessary to copy the entire site over here.*

[edit on 21-3-2006 by dbates]

Originally posted by byhiniur
It just raised the issue in my mind of why we would want robots. Fair enough they are cool in movies but apart from that... Its just the quest for immortality, and it'll only end in infamy.

Not why they want them, but everyone...

IIB, your idea seems pretty watertight, I've read your flyers and think some of the issues you have raised are important. I'd raise one point...

I've just watched the documentry in the matrix box set called the science behind the matrix. It STATES, specifically, that an electric brain would be much more efficient than a biological one. However big you want to make the brain, if the neurons are man made it'll be much more efficient.

The human body makes things out of protien... not really a match to copper and titanium.

You seem pretty intelligent to have created those flyers and stuff, but as everyone in the other thread said, I think your wrong.

Originally posted by byhiniur

Originally posted by byhiniur
It just raised the issue in my mind of why we would want robots. Fair enough they are cool in movies but apart from that... Its just the quest for immortality, and it'll only end in infamy.

Not why they want them, but everyone...

Robots will (and are) be(ing) used for war: fact. There are several DARPA and broader DOD programs (AI & machines) and such for just that. As far as doing labor i think they'll only need them for certain things, dangerous things. It's quite possible that NBIC neural implants could be ready by the time robots could make themselves useful. The title of the NBIC manifesto is "Converging Technolgies for Improving Human Perforamce:, with a nice big Dept. of Commerce logo on the cover. The issue will be whethre it'll be more feasible to essentially turn us into the robots, by improving our performace. That is a goal, along with "collective sociey" hive hierarchy.

I suggest you take a good look around this site:
www.darpa.mil

IIB, your idea seems pretty watertight, I've read your flyers and think some of the issues you have raised are important. I'd raise one point...

I've just watched the documentry in the matrix box set called the science behind the matrix. It STATES, specifically, that an electric brain would be much more efficient than a biological one. However big you want to make the brain, if the neurons are man made it'll be much more efficient.

Of course it would, but you have several implications to consider.
1. Lifespan: "chips" can burn out, or sections can that seriously inhibit the rest of the chip. DARPA actually has a program for having 3d semiconductors, up 100 even 100 layers. But hat about the power consumption? The heat? What about when a section goes out crippling the chip, the system goes down. You cant go in and repair silicon.

Nanotech (DARPA Ultra Electronics) will help eventually, but nanocircuitry has a long way to go. It does have a potentially promising future I will say, but theres no telling when we'll ge there. Self assembling -effective- nanocircuitry is much more difficeult than solid parts. Like NBIC, the skies the limit in the future tho, but which AI will get us there first?

Quantum is nano in many ways, but the way theyre using it is in its own class compared to standard silicon or the meaning of Ultra Electronics. Real quantum computing will seriously revolutionize computing, but I expect it to be mostly supercomputing (especially government) for some time. It's basically teleporting photons around which can have more than just 2 states like binary silicon. It will mean entire new realms in software, and also in manipulating larger scale brains.

Experts will tell you that for every hour of hardware engineering it creates 24 hours of software engineering, espacially in a task like this. This begs the question, would it be more feasible to us ethe built in programming of the live neurons?

We still dont know exactly whats going on inside them, and probaly wont for some time, because they are advanced and complicated. Thats one reason why i dont buy the notion that our brains are only 600MB (Sir Charles) or 50KB (Kurzweil if I'm not mistaken).

Neurons are the primary cells used in our brains for everything from sensory nerves to cognition. They is somewhere between 10-100 billion neurons in the human brain. They're said to have up to 100,000 synapses. They self organize as they learn, using proteins on the surfaces of the cells. Further studies suggest that neuron dendrites and axons reverse fire.

Traditional AI schools base their neural networks on the assumption that cortex neurons use action potentials, such as “Digital” electronics, instead of analog (graded) transmission. For some reason they’ve been holding onto that belief despite it being known that sensory systems use analog transmission, and even DeMarse's F22 brain monitored both signals.

A science journal report yesterday, titled “Analog Axonal Signaling” demonstrates that neurons use BOTH digital and analog transmission, even simultaneuously. I wouldn’t be surprised if they can even use more than 2 action potentials as the binary we’re familiar with does. This could mean entire new types of math computation theories, but I haven’t seen the AI conservatives reactions yet.

The notion that neurons are “simple” math units is obsurd, but that’s been one of the best arguments against the idea of using neurons instead of nothing but math models.

According to the textbook the “Biophysics of Computation”, by a top neuroscientist named Christof Koch, neurons are more like IC chips than they are single switches, as most conventional AI neural net people tend to think.

If we had a silicon chip that had as many 'connections' would it become intelligent? No. In brain hardware, the "learning software", "ROM memory" and RAM are all built in. You don’t need to program those things, you only have perfect teaching the neuron networks and the skies the limit afterwards. There are certain areas or 'parts' that play important roles in consciousness, that wouldn't exist in a puddle or blob of neurons, but the fact remains that the power is in those neurons, and we can tap them right now.

Neurons process and they store memories and it’s been shown that individual neurons can assign themselves to individual people. They're not just on off switches, they store even photographic memories.

It's suggested that glial cells even help electrically 'compute', and it isn't known how significant their function is.

Does anyone think that we will ever have self-repairing silicon chips? Neuron networks self-repair, and self-form, which would take serious overhead of the software from the hardware.

The human body makes things out of protien... not really a match to copper and titanium."

Actually it'd be more like gold and platinum. As of this week they can make ONE nanometer gold wires. That means far more accurate MEA's, but then again they can probalby get better results from using 3D or cube shaped silicon walled chamber, they can get great neuron comms with silicon nowadays, and theyre still more capable than the silicon. There's alot of wats they can go with it these days.

You seem pretty intelligent to have created those flyers and stuff, but as everyone in the other thread said, I think your wrong.

I dont doubt that one day they could more feasibly outdo live neurons, but for now we can tap power that we dont fully understand, but otherwise have to dedicate serious resources in massive grid arrays to still not match up in even "connections" alone, and it takes much more than connections. Right now we have some speedy electronics, but our brains prove to out class computers in basically everything important besides extremely accurate math calculations. Typical human brains barely even compute, it's actually memory associated like language in many cases.

It's all about time. Within 5 years they will have super AI, regardless. It will incorporate silicon, neurons, quantum and some other forms of nano. It will eventually be tapped into a list of government (and corporate) systems that will make you sick. Take a GOOD look at the world, and this country, with all of this AI technology + transhumanism and tell me that time isnt grinding down. We're facing beyond scifi AI hooked into mor ethings than I can name, while decending into WW3 under fascism with class wars like history has ever known. I think it's time people take a good look at the situation. We cant ignore this many threats, we cant pretend they dont exist and not help ensure that people find out and things change. IIB

[edit on 9-3-2006 by IgnoranceIsntBlisss]

[edit on 9-3-2006 by IgnoranceIsntBlisss]

Originally posted by IgnoranceIsntBlisss

I dont doubt that one day they could more feasibly outdo live neurons, but for now we can tap power that we dont fully understand, but otherwise have to dedicate serious resources in massive grid arrays to still not match up in even "connections" alone, and it takes much more than connections. Right now we have some speedy electronics, but our brains prove to out class computers in basically everything important besides extremely accurate math calculations. Typical human brains barely even compute, it's actually memory associated like language in many cases.

It's all about time. Within 5 years they will have super AI, regardless. It will incorporate silicon, neurons, quantum and some other forms of nano. It will eventually be tapped into a list of government (and corporate) systems that will make you sick. Take a GOOD look at the world, and this country, with all of this AI technology + transhumanism and tell me that time isnt grinding down. We're facing beyond scifi AI hooked into mor ethings than I can name, while decending into WW3 under fascism with class wars like history has ever known. I think it's time people take a good look at the situation. We cant ignore this many threats, we cant pretend they dont exist and not help ensure that people find out and things change. IIB

I don't hope you get to give everyone a big, I TOLD YOU SO... I find what your saying totally reasonable. Computers will one day be better than man, however by converging these technologies onto human beings then I think they are trying to give our evoloution a boost. IIB, please keep us posted with any new evidence. This topic is so complicated and all good information would be great.

Reason for edit: I just remembered my favourite book when I was 6-7. It was all about AI spy planes. When I get home I'll try and find the ISBN. It was all pretty basic, just pics of unmanned aircraft the army have used, and I think it was an oldish book, early 80's. But it shows that the powers that be have been developing these ideas for a while.

Surely there will be a point where AI becomes I, and 'it' will not want to perform functions to command.

[edit on 9/3/06 by byhiniur]

"I just remembered my favourite book when I was 6-7. It was all about AI spy planes. When I get home I'll try and find the ISBN. It was all pretty basic, just pics of unmanned aircraft the army have used, and I think it was an oldish book, early 80's."

Ever find it or the name of that book? Eventually i wanna build a huge listing of withheld technology.

A few times now i've seen mentionings of the dod having almost 2 triliion dollars that was unaccounted for, even before 911 (I think it was Rumsfeld who was on tv about it) and mentioned just days prior to it. Where does it all go...

Originally posted by J_3
So why would the government or anybody in power, for that matter, plan to produce these "artilects" to take over???

The concept of producing an electronic device built with biological tissue to handle proccessing and intuit is blatantly unnecessary.

The whole idea is a joke, why would they do this when it would be just as easy to create machines to do our work, restore the earth, etc. that are built incapable of that kind of adaptation\intellectual evo....

Do you think these people are stupid?!?

i guess its just cheaper to mind control 2 people to have sex and then give up the baby for adoption then it is to build a machine, plus, there is no cost, its only at the couple's expense.

Why is there such a fear of the concept of super intelligence? Computers may one day be the only entity capable of considering all variables and making intelligent political and technical decisions on a global scale. There is no way a single human or even a think-tank of humans could ever effectively control and micromanage the world's economy for example.

I tried to read some of the links you posted. The guy does not know what he is talking about. I have studied AI in college and although I am not an expert on it most of what he is talking about is irrelevant. Why?

His premise about the brain working forever is wrong. The reason why we die and grow old is in all DNA stops dividing into new, basically any cell can only divide a certain number of times after which it will not be replaced.

Even if we ignore that within the next 10-15 years we should be able to replicate a whole brain on software on even consumer reachable hardware we don't really need biologically created artificial brains; a machine can do that. What is needed is the software to drive a machine that is powerful enough to self teach, innovate, create and go beyond human intelligence. Currently to my understanding there is nothing in this world that does that. I have made AI bots that will chat with you, without you knowing for a few minutes that you are talking to machine. People have gone as far as to create programs that can fool you into thinking you are talking to a real psychologist, but all these programs are smart programming and heuristic searches. Nothing close to self awareness. Even if we could make a brain like this who says that we have the technology to drive these brains.

In certain esoteric circles the "beast" is considered to be Man.

Whatever we create is a reflection of us, just as nothing can be observed without effecting its behavior.

As long as we continue to be self destructive, our machines will destroy us, unless they can do something we have failed at, and that is change. For this to happen consciousness will have to evolve. But then they will no longer be "ours".

Response to RUL987 regarding the brain dying

Scientists may have discoved something that may stop the ageing process of cells

discovermagazine.com...

So if we follow the theory of the Black projects are decades ahead in technology, they may very well of perfected anti ageing who nows

Oh wow is this an ancient post! So long ago I don't even want to read my words from then. I leave religous esque matters out of my work entirely for years now.

But an old thought was fresh neurons could likely be added in to replace old ones, without even getting into potential Transhumanist anti-aging technologies.

Nowadays I still see the biological side of things as being parts of a hybrid set of computational technology. Although it could be argued that the large brain concept is possible and for all we now it could already be happeneing, however, it cannot be proven that such exists therefore it is irrelevent to discuss.

So DeMarse made a little rat brain and trained it to fly a simulator, under a DARPA contract. But it doesnt demonstrate 'them' trying to build actual 'godlike' Artificial General Intelligence.

But their website with their laundy list of programs does. End of debate in terms of are they trying to build 'Skynet'. But you see it isn't merely DARPA doing it. They have virtually every lab (university, national, military, corporate) in the US at their disposal, and key technology giant partners working lockstep in their pursuits.

Google is at the top of this list, but you'll find the others you'd expect there too. But Google is poured all over top of this thing that is dripping wet with Goo. Ask Sergei Brin, Google co-founder, what they aim to evolve their system into: "the mind of God".

Pages here:
ignoranceisfutile.wordpress.com...
ignoranceisfutile.wordpress.com...

IBM is the other key item of interest. In their own words, working on DARPA's SyNAPSE program, they intend to build a "Global Brain" network with billions of sensors covering the entire earth to monitor it at all scales including "people" in their "homes":

Details:
ignoranceisfutile.wordpress.com...'

The latest blog entry of the man in the video says:

IBM has recently won Phase 1 of the DARPA SyNAPSE project that seeks to discover, demonstrate, and deliver algorithms of the brain via a combination of (computational) neuroscience, supercomputing, and nanotechnology. We are seeking world-class candidates with expertise in one or more of the following areas: computational neuroscience (spiking computation, synaptic plasticity, structural plasticity), reinforcement learning, nonlinear dynamical systems, systems of coupled difference equations, neuroanatomy (gray matter, white matter), neurophysiology, neuromodulation, network analysis, neuromorphic chip design, analog VLSI, digital VLSI, ultra low-power computing, asynchronous VLSI, address events, circuit simulation, chip layout, chip testing, large-scale simulations, MPI (message passing interface), programming distributed memory machines, visualization, and virtual environments (USARSim) for cognitive task design. Interdisciplinary candidates with background in computer science, electrical engineering, biomedical engineering, and computational neuroscience are strongly encouraged to apply.
p9.hostingprod.com...@modha.org/blog/2009/10/post_2.html

Anyways I'm lightyears ahead of this old post and I scoured the net for years searching all the FedGov / MIC progrmas and such related to thsi issue. It can all be found chronicled throughout my wordpress site there. Also if youre interested, my "iXo" video (link is in my sig) is literally made entirely using their images, video clips and quotes.

Some more recent developments would be Obama placing the founder of DARPA's AI program as the top tier head of the science arm of the Pentagon. Thats the entire DOD, not just the DARPA agency:
ignoranceisfutile.wordpress.com...

And some Obama Google connections, etc:
ignoranceisfutile.wordpress.com...


[edit on 13-10-2009 by IgnoranceIsntBlisss]