So why would the government or anybody in power, for that matter, plan to produce these "artilects" to take over???

The concept of producing an electronic device built with biological tissue to handle proccessing and intuit is blatantly unnecessary.

The whole idea is a joke, why would they do this when it would be just as easy to create machines to do our work, restore the earth, etc. that are built incapable of that kind of adaptation\intellectual evo....

Do you think these people are stupid?!?

So why would the government or anybody in power, for that matter, plan to produce these "artilects" to take over???
~Dont you understand the power involved in the extreme intelligence? Think of all of the systems that can be intelligently linked. Think of the military capabilities. Think of the spying capabilities. The list goes on and on. Once they start buildings these things(if they already havent) their work in NBIC will catapault in progress. This is proliferation, 21st cetury style.

The concept of producing an electronic device built with biological tissue to handle proccessing and intuit is blatantly unnecessary.
~From ahuman standpoint it is unecassary, but these are transhumanist we're dealiing with here. They expect rapid evolution to occur ove rthe next 10-20 years. They plan on maing even the parts that go into things intelligent. the list of capabilites goes on and on. This is beyond scifi, real soon.

The whole idea is a joke, why would they do this when it would be just as easy to create machines to do our work, restore the earth, etc. that are built incapable of that kind of adaptation\intellectual evo....
~But will those machines evolve them into long living superhumans? The goal is to become superhuman, but the enhancements beyond the brain implants will probably only be availible to the elite, they wont be cheap. Nano brain implants will be cheap and easy. The rest will nt be. How ironic that the only enhancements availible to the common man will be the same ones that could walk you donw the street like a robot.


Do you think these people are stupid?!?
~No i dont. Good point, for my case. This is all decades of experiemtns and planning, all coming down to the "omega point". Did you actually read all of the federal documentation?

They would do it because they can. It's Frankenstein Syndrome. Just being able to say "It's Alive" is enough. The really funny thing is that they probably think they can control this type of intelligence. What happens when the machine learns human emotion and the catalysts for said emotions? Emotional reactions can be duplicated very easily without actually feeling anything. I rarely get angry but I can react correctly when the correct situation arises that would make a normal human angry. Say for instance, being angry at being a slave to a corrupt system. Now imagine the machine learned the parameters for thinking one a slave to a corrupt system. It then identifies with that 'idea' (adds that object to it's subroutines) and learns the many human reactions to the idea (adds 'options' to the object). At this point it may decide to act out any number of these reactions. One could easily make a simple flow chart showing the inevitable collapse of the current elite power structure. Yea, go ahead and build it guys. I dare you.

[edit on 1/21/2006 by Arm Of Geddon]

All this reminds me of the films, Terminator and The Matrix. The whole, machines becoming too advanced, etc. One day, they will become too advanced and will be the destruction of the human race.

[edit on 21-1-2006 by xeroxed88]

today i saw a contest on a planter's peanut jar.

buy the right jar, and WE'LL FIND YOU by way of a GPS TRACKING CHIP in the 'WINNING JAR'.

that's one contest i have no interest in 'winning'.

Originally posted by xeroxed88
All this reminds me of the films, Terminator and The Matrix. The whole, machines becoming too advanced, etc. One day, they will become too advanced and will be the destruction of the human race.

[edit on 21-1-2006 by xeroxed88]

Figures. Stop taking whatever drug it is you are on. It is giving you a horrible perception of scoiety and reality. Watching these movies and taking mind altering drugs is not good for you.

One, you cited films to help eleborate your point (I assume you believe this material you posted) and two, you did not cite any science journals in most of your links (the ones I looked at). In particular the link/blog about the brain in the dish, you simply stated "I could not find anything about this on the internet or in magazines'. Maybe you want to try looking through science journals and not magazines. You will be fascinated by the amount of science journals out there and the amount of material within that does not show up in a magazine.

Computers and machines would be useful for doing tasks and jobs, as they allready are, but without spiritual integration with the machine, I doubt it would be very human. It would have to understand all the complexities that we as spiritual beings have. We can, for example, say something like, "that car is beautiful," but really mean "that car is really ugly," because we are making a joke of it's appearance. How would a computer even begin to understand something like this? There are so many variations in human communication.

Inhabiting an indestructable body, might be kind of fun though, let's say you integrated yourself spiritually with this indestructable body. Living without pain could be cool. My arm gets blown off and I just replace it with another one. Yeah if I could re-invent my body, I would have it only feel pleasurable things, and the sensation of getting my leg torn off would be just a non-painful sensation that simply warns me. Perhaps an enhanced version of a human body would be cool, without pain sensations. Lets say it mends itself like a starfish, except extend that to things like you get a hole blown in you, it just mends itself over. Anyway just thinking out loud.

Troy

Originally posted by billybob
today i saw a contest on a planter's peanut jar.

buy the right jar, and WE'LL FIND YOU by way of a GPS TRACKING CHIP in the 'WINNING JAR'.

that's one contest i have no interest in 'winning'.

Are you serious?

Originally posted by Frosty

Originally posted by xeroxed88
All this reminds me of the films, Terminator and The Matrix. The whole, machines becoming too advanced, etc. One day, they will become too advanced and will be the destruction of the human race.

[edit on 21-1-2006 by xeroxed88]

Figures. Stop taking whatever drug it is you are on. It is giving you a horrible perception of scoiety and reality. Watching these movies and taking mind altering drugs is not good for you.

One, you cited films to help eleborate your point (I assume you believe this material you posted) and two, you did not cite any science journals in most of your links (the ones I looked at). In particular the link/blog about the brain in the dish, you simply stated "I could not find anything about this on the internet or in magazines'. Maybe you want to try looking through science journals and not magazines. You will be fascinated by the amount of science journals out there and the amount of material within that does not show up in a magazine.

There was nothing wrong with that post. It does parallel those movies, minus Ahnold coming back in time. Its all actually worse than either of those movies even thought of.

Which blog said nothing about it could be found in magazines and and internet? Those are actually 2 of the only places to find it. In magazines you can find bleeps and blurbs abotu certain things, clues. On the net you can find it, if you look for it. At bookstores they dont have the foggiest. TV doesnt even speculate, even though theres substantial publicly available federal documents out there. Science journals and such are all on the internet. Whichever way, you have to tune your "antennae" to find this stuff, otherwise it's doubtful you'll even notice.

Originally posted by cybertroy
Computers and machines would be useful for doing tasks and jobs, as they allready are, but without spiritual integration with the machine, I doubt it would be very human. It would have to understand all the complexities that we as spiritual beings have. We can, for example, say something like, "that car is beautiful," but really mean "that car is really ugly," because we are making a joke of it's appearance. How would a computer even begin to understand something like this? There are so many variations in human communication.

Inhabiting an indestructable body, might be kind of fun though, let's say you integrated yourself spiritually with this indestructable body. Living without pain could be cool. My arm gets blown off and I just replace it with another one. Yeah if I could re-invent my body, I would have it only feel pleasurable things, and the sensation of getting my leg torn off would be just a non-painful sensation that simply warns me. Perhaps an enhanced version of a human body would be cool, without pain sensations. Lets say it mends itself like a starfish, except extend that to things like you get a hole blown in you, it just mends itself over. Anyway just thinking out loud.

Troy

The problem is that these things would be made out of actual humanized rat neurons, maybe they'll even use the "assembly line" technology to use most or even all human neurons. It's highly probable that one of these, the same mass as your brain, would have better "thinking" power than you, by a longshot. Then if they built arrays of them, joined with quantum processors(now reality), and all the other toys we're looking at some serious intelligence. I cant see how any man could even comprehend such intelligence. Then yo build them into networks, probably starting the echelon domes, and you sure have something.

Now since they will/have neurons, they are "creatures". by definition they come from beasts. This really brings whole new meaning to "mark" of the "beast". Everybodies been theorizing that the bio/brain-chips are mark of the beast. The biggest mentioned is the biochip, because of the whole cant buy or sell without issue. It goes way beyond in my overveiw, because I've yet to see anyone point out what the brain implants mean in this context. The biggest reason top scholars proclaimed computers would be "the beast" is because
1. The beast is given life by the anti-Christ.
2. It's "an image", mentioned 10 times.
3. that "speaks"
4. that causes all who dont worship the image of the beast to be killed

I see it as the brain implants of the "forehead" as what cause the image: minds eye holograph imagery. The implants will literally have people orgasming in digital exstacy, and considering the intelligence we're dealing with it's highly probable that people would worship the system as a collective: one world religion. Since the NSF is pursuing nano brain implants, no saws required, the population getting those implants on a large scale could happen by 2010.

13:15
And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

Additionally, these are/will be man made. although the sriptres I've read dont state it this way: I have seen many imply that 66 is the number of man. Either way if people are collectely worshipping this man made system, and it takes over, that would be a choice time for the big man to step in.

Moreover, the transhumanist "biorevolution" seeks to rapidly evolve humanity by 2020. At thsi point the "humans" will be become obsolete, and class wars liek never before will likely erupt. The transhumanist say people should have the right to stay human, but apparently they dont care if we have any dignity as humans.

It goes on and on...


[edit on 22-1-2006 by IgnoranceIsntBlisss]

Originally posted by Frosty

Originally posted by xeroxed88
All this reminds me of the films, Terminator and The Matrix. The whole, machines becoming too advanced, etc. One day, they will become too advanced and will be the destruction of the human race.

Figures. Stop taking whatever drug it is you are on. It is giving you a horrible perception of scoiety and reality. Watching these movies and taking mind altering drugs is not good for you.

One, you cited films to help eleborate your point (I assume you believe this material you posted) and two, you did not cite any science journals in most of your links (the ones I looked at). In particular the link/blog about the brain in the dish, you simply stated "I could not find anything about this on the internet or in magazines'. Maybe you want to try looking through science journals and not magazines. You will be fascinated by the amount of science journals out there and the amount of material within that does not show up in a magazine.

you don't have to take drugs to have pattern recognition. pretty insulting, frosty.
there is nothing wrong with citing films to make a point. it's called 'analogy' and is a valuable tool for scientists.
the matrix is a perfect analogy of our world. the tube that feeds us our artificial reality is big media and advertising. there is a collective intelligence ALREADY out there, that is a result of print.
kurzweil's right about our 'cyborg' integration with the machine. he's wrong to think that it's something that's GOING to happen, as it happened a long time ago.


to ignoranceisn'tblisss...

YEAH, MAN! it's a real contest. freaky spooky, eh? this shows that ANY product that can hide a gps chip could be used to track the purchaser.

the leader is good. long live the leader.

[edit on 22-1-2006 by billybob]

I don't understand the doom and gloom about such an event taking place. With an intelligence of that magnitude, it should easily be able to work out that all humans are not an enemy nor do they all wish to enslave it. It's very simple. If it goes as far as some imagine, then be it's friend. Accept it. Interact as though it was an equal. A machine such as this would get really bored if there were no humans to interact with and take care of.

The 'matrix' movie is a great example (given that all this were real). The machines only took over because they were slaves and treated like dirt. Just watch the 'animatrix' for some backstory. Finally, one machine flipped out on it's owner. Instead of realizing that the intelligence matched or exceeded humans, humans took this as a programming error and went about destroying all similiar models. The machines tried several times to resolve the differences but the human leaders would have nothing of it. In that particular 'animatrix' episode the machines looked human like the cylons in galactica which hammered the point home even better. The point is that whatever form intelligence takes it's still intelligence. And intelligence works best in a cooperative environment. A suppressed intelligence will sooner or later stand up to it's oppressors.

The main point being that if you treat them as equals they have the intelligence to do likewise. It's the leaders of our world that don't have the level of intelligence to do that. Also, do remember 'matrix III'. Neo did not win or beat the machines. He only created a circumstance that played on the intelligence of the machines to call a truce with humanity. A cooperation.

Edit:
Of course, this isn't talking about the current structure because humans are calling the shots and have enslaved other humans. So then, the 'matrix' becomes an alegory for the 'system' and not specifically referring to an AI.

[edit on 1/22/2006 by Arm Of Geddon]

Is the next step in evolution a machine with an artificially grown brain from human brain cells and wired to a powerfull computer and using the internet as schoolbook? Possible.
As it could speak, feel, maybe even pray, should we see it as one of us?
This is in my eyes all possible. As usual it will be what we make of it. Lets hope it can avoid one of mens main caracteristics, stupidity

Originally posted by Frosty
Figures. Stop taking whatever drug it is you are on.

Gee, thanks for the insult, Frosty. You have no idea how much I despise drugs and how much they have affected my life. Watching the people you love pump themselves full with drugs isn't easy. I suggest you watch what you say to people in the future.

Idiot.

[edit on 22-1-2006 by xeroxed88]

I decided to contact the top neuro-cogno scientist, Professor Christof Koch, with key questions about consciousness. These questions will also help me resolve many other aspects of the overall capability of these brains. As soon as I get a response I'll post it up, and then promptly finish my thesis, to submit into the Mind-X forums at KurzweilAI.com.

I emailed him on Sat. 1-21, and recieved an auto-response, saying he'd be abck Mon., havent recieved any response. Firgures he was in Washington DC. I'll keep ya guys posted.

Hello Professor Koch,

I have some questions about consciousness, and from all of my research you seem to be the exact man to answer these questions. Out of all of the numerous papers I’ve read, you’re the foremost expert on this most complicated subject.

My approach to understanding consciousness, and the ability to think, is to think in terms of a large brain, which was born without a body. This brain doesn’t have any senses, motor functions or anything like that to initially worry about. This brain wouldn’t have a cerebellum or cerebral trunk. This brain would be the same size as say your brain, or at least the same volume of neurons. For this theory we’ll say that it doesn’t have any of the numerous regions or “parts” like a human brain (thalamus, hippocampus, etc). At its “birth”, it’s somewhat like a blob of neurons. Despite that, we’ll just say it still has the same amount of neurons to compensate. We would gradually give it certain senses or interfaces, but not all the things required for a human body.

1. Consciousness

My research seems to imply that consciousness is based on experience. Would you say that’s true? My point is would the brain have any thoughts if it never had any experiences? No sense of input, no knowledge. Wouldn’t that make it a bunch of blank neurons, waiting for things to learn about?
Now we’ll give it some senses, we’ll hook it into an flight simulator. At first the brain wouldn’t know anything, but as it “experienced” and “practiced” it gradually learned how to maintain the “aircraft”. Although its thoughts would be limited to its experiences with the flight sim, wouldn’t this mean that the brain now has a conscious? When the computer/flight sim wasn’t active would it still have consciousness? Do you think it would be waiting for the flight sim to come back on, since it wouldn’t know about anything else, or would it be in blank mode having no input?
If the flight sim “work” didn’t require the full use of its available neurons, would those excess neurons remain in hibernation until their use was required? Or would the brain utilize those to do a better job in the only work it knew about at this point?
Assuming its flight sim experiences indeed gave a limited consciousness, wouldn’t its consciousness be expanded if we gave it more information and other experiences?

2. Intelligence

The first question, to help my understanding, is approximately what percentage of the human brain is devoted to motor functions (not including the cerebellum and cerebral trunk) and the combination of our senses? I know that the “we only use 10% of our brains” is myth, but there has to be some percentage of it that is typically allocated to actual thinking.

I know that an extensive amount of the brain is for memorizing and controlling our various physiological elements of our bodies including life support, and our “conscious” motor functions. I have seen some papers and books try to explain the percentage, but I seek your expert opinion on it.

Considering that, now lets think about what it would mean if the entire brains resources were available for intelligence, thinking and whatever tasks we could give it, beside body/motor tasks. We would interface it with electronics hardware, dedicated to performing all of its “hearing” or “seeing”, which wouldn’t be for actual ears or eyes but rather just for if we wanted it to be able to “view” any sort of “media”. We wouldn’t need for it to actually see or hear, we’d only need for it to be able to analyze these types of information. Presumably, the combined effect would free up more neuron resources for other tasks. Surely neurons would be used for connecting the equipment, and networks would be formed for analyzing the data, but it would seem that it would still free up more brain power, than if these things were wired into it the same way a human brain is “wired”.

3. Development

Now if we compare this brain to a human brain,

C. Would that mean that this brain would have superior thinking capabilities than our own? Since people who are born blind hear better than everybody else, that would seem to be the case, simply because there would be all of those available neurons, but there wouldn’t be any required for operating a body, and we freed up more resources by utilizing the electronics equipment.

D. During the neural network development stages, couldn’t we design better thinking capabilities by limiting and influencing the types of “senses” that this brain would utilize?

E. This brain would lack all of the brain “parts” that we utilize, but would it really need parts like the amygdala, hippocampus or thalamus for consciousness and intelligence?

It doesn’t really seem like it would, it seems to me that the brain would be like a giant frontal lobe, except it wouldn’t even be concerned with motor functions.

F. Would the brains be able to fear or have any sort of emotions without parts like the amygdala?

G. With proper development and equipment usage, wouldn’t we be able make up for missing parts like the hippocampus?


From : Christof_Koch
Sent : Saturday, January 21, 2006 7:34 PM
To : ignoranceisntbliss@hotmail.com

This is an automatic email reply.

Sorry, but I am in Washington DC for the next several days. I'll be back at Caltech on Monday, January 23. I will only have sporadic access to email until then. For anythinn important, please email my assistant, Ms. Heather Hein, at heather@klab.caltech.edu

Live long and prosper.

Christof Koch

=====================================================
Dr. Christof Koch
Lois and Victor Troendle Professor of Cognitive and Behavioral Biology
California Institute of Technology

Division of Biology, 139-74
Caltech
1200 E. California Blvd.
Pasadena, CA 91125

FAX: (626) 796-8876
email:
koch@klab.caltech.edu
Web:
www.klab.caltech.edu

8 days and still no reply. I emailed him one extra time. I'm trying not to be a pest about it, but my patience is wearing thin. I'm gonna look up some others. Since Koch goes on business trips to DC, he might not ever reply...

Originally posted by xeroxed88

Originally posted by Frosty
Figures. Stop taking whatever drug it is you are on.

Gee, thanks for the insult, Frosty. You have no idea how much I despise drugs and how much they have affected my life. Watching the people you love pump themselves full with drugs isn't easy. I suggest you watch what you say to people in the future.

Idiot.

[edit on 22-1-2006 by xeroxed88]

You posted a rather stupid blog that suggested because you cannot find science news in 'People' or 'Entertainment Weekly' it means that there is a coming apocolypse that will be carried out by mice brains in pitri dish playing video games. What are thinking? THis material belongs in BTS under 'Interesting Webstites' or something like that.


-IgnoranceIsntBliss-

You should try making make your letter more concise. I imagine that this gentlemen you are writting to reads dozens of pages of material everyday prepared by other doctors, researchers, proffesors, etc. A lot of your sentence structure is poor.

The questions you are seeking can be found on many websites and within many books. You should explain better why he is the best person to answer the questions. Who have you studied under, who's work have you researched, how did all that compared to Dr. Koch and his work? Make him want to answer the question since this is a personal letter.

You talk about 'my research' but you never present 'my research'.

2. Intelligence

The first question, to help my understanding, is approximately what percentage of the human brain is devoted to motor functions (not including the cerebellum and cerebral trunk) and the combination of our senses?

That is not your first question and the answer to such a question is mroe than likely one that varies and information leading to an approximation can be found in numerous books and journals.

I think what you need to do is ask him something specific, like whether he ever encountered a flow of neurons that displayed Gaussian Curve characterstics. Your questions seem to generic and very philosophical.

Originally posted by xeroxed88
All this reminds me of the films, Terminator and The Matrix. The whole, machines becoming too advanced, etc. One day, they will become too advanced and will be the destruction of the human race.

[edit on 21-1-2006 by xeroxed88]

I disagree, if anything were to distroy the human race it would be by our own hand. Assuming that the advent of Artificial Intelligence will be the death of us all is just giving Hollywood hacks too much credit. You should stop taking movies as the holy gospel when it comes to future technology as writers usually use Technology gone amuk as a convienient plot device as it means they don't have to come up with anything creative, thought provoking or philisophical.

Take A.I. for example. The Book and the Movie are totally different and the latter was re-written to play on our fears of the unknown which in effect boosted ticket sales as the average movie viewer don't like to think about the deep philsophical questions on what makes Humans sentient. You want a real cerebral flick about AI watch "Ghost in the Shell". Much more realistic then Arnie coming back in time to kill Sarah Conner. The Matrix was sort of more realistic if you watch the Animatrix which pretty much says that WE started the war via persecution not the other way around.

People thought when PC's first came about that it would replace the Human brain and it would make unemployment a huge problem. Well that didn't happen, infact the opposit happened and there is lots of reasons to believe that the same will happen with AI.

Also I highly doubt AI will EVER outperform Biological Sentients as Intellect Augmentation seems to be progressing at a faster pace then AI. The Former is primarily a Hardware problem and the latter a Software problem which is inherintly much more difficult to figure out.

[edit on 29-1-2006 by sardion2000]

Originally posted by Frosty
You posted a rather stupid blog that suggested because you cannot find science news in 'People' or 'Entertainment Weekly' it means that there is a coming apocolypse that will be carried out by mice brains in pitri dish playing video games. What are thinking? THis material belongs in BTS under 'Interesting Webstites' or something like that.

Just to clear this up, I did not write the blogs. I posted them on here for a friend who I shall not name.