How To Cause A Civil War In America

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posted on Jan, 14 2006 @ 03:02 AM
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There's something that's bugged me ever since I heard it more than two years ago.

I was talking to a few of my fellow Marines one day, and one of them (not the brightest political or strategic mind I've ever come across) brought up the idea that somehow America might one day go to war with Israel. That seems to be what a certain breed of Marine does (not all of them)- sit around sizing up the wars they might get to fight some day.

What bugged me was that in this small group of Marines, the majority agreed that if there was a war with Israel, they'd have to fight for Israel, because of their religious beliefs.

I've never considered it a major issue though, because America isn't going to war with Israel anytime soon, probably never.

But I recently realized that manufacturing a war with Israel would be a great tool for any potential conspiracy to effect a radical change in American government.

We Americans have a sometimes rather abbrasive independent streak which doesn't mesh well with the notion of a one world government. We weren't always so hot on the idea of even one county government, and depending on who is in office- some of us still aren't.

To overcome this, you've got to divide Americans against one another, causing one faction to make common cause with outsiders against the rest.

What happens if a conspiracy is perpetrated whereby America arms some nation or nations, works with them hand in hand, and these nations end up attacking Israel, and we turn a blind eye, then a "punitive attack by Israel" is faked?

Some of America wants to retaliate- others, including perhaps many in our military, may not stay loyal. If a coup or separation is attempted, what's left of America needs military help, and new friends.

To me it seems like a great way to bring "Blue State" America, the EU, Russia, and China closer together, and justify the supression of rebellious elements in the "Red States"- especially the "Bible Belt" which makes up the base of that faction in America.

Possible?




posted on Jan, 14 2006 @ 04:56 AM
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Sounds a bit like what Abu Hamza is preaching here in the UK.

He's trying to get the Islamic community to kill all the non-Islamic people.

Suppose some people consider religion first, then their country, even if they're 2nd or 3rd generation.



posted on Jan, 14 2006 @ 10:35 AM
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There was no civil war after Waco burned. If that couldn't move US citizens to action then nothing can.

Roper



posted on Jan, 14 2006 @ 10:57 AM
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The Vagabond and Mashup,

well without being brutally honest, as im sure you know this already...well if you refused to fight or tried to desert you would be shot dead. Some reports put the allied deaths as 1 in 5 being executed for desertion or cracking up, during WW1 in the trenches.

How many of your colleques and friends being shot dead infront of you would it take until you shot at any enemy your commanders want you too. And be unde no illusion that it would happen if they deemed it necessary.

Civil War because of issues with israel? do me a favour most of the money saved in proping them up would double the welfare in US, it would probably be a popular view statistically.

Cannon fodder is used as just that.

Tsk

Regards

Elf



posted on Jan, 14 2006 @ 06:06 PM
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Originally posted by MischeviousElf
well without being brutally honest, as im sure you know this already...well if you refused to fight or tried to desert you would be shot dead.


Only in a battlefield situation- yes if you tried to walk out when your unit needed you, you might get shot. Officially though, there was only one courtmartial for desertion that resulted in an execution in WWII, and it was the first and only since the Civil War.

Here at home, deserters get a slap on the wrist. When I was at the school of infantry, it was standard fare to lose between 1 and 3 marines UA every Sunday when liberty ended, and it wasn't uncommon for a guy to never come back.

Before the deployment, some servicemembers definately would desert or mutiny before a war with Israel, and they would not be shot.


And be unde no illusion that it would happen if they deemed it necessary.

That's exactly it- it wouldn't be immediately deemed necessary in a non-battlefield situation. By the time the scope of the problem was deemed that severe, the damage would be done.


Civil War because of issues with israel? do me a favour most of the money saved in proping them up would double the welfare in US, it would probably be a popular view statistically.


You're looking at it from a rational point of view (Welfare not withstanding). Looking at it from a rational point of view is not a good way to anticipate actions taken for religious motives.

What you have to remember (and I'm keenly aware of this since I spent several years at a very high level of activity in a Baptist church) is that Christians do not distinguish at any level between the preservation and advancement of the modern nation of Israel.
From a pastor friend of mine: "If we go to war with Israel, I will swiftly become a proud citizen of Canada."
From a marine I knew, seconded by several others who were in on the conversation: "The day Israel declares war on America is the day I become a mercinary for Israel."

These people do not believe that Israel can be defeated- they believe God will utterly smite the crap out of anyone who screws with "His chosen people". They don't grasp the idea that Israel has in the past and can in the future do wrong and tick God off, even in Christian doctrine.

The less religiously dominated areas of the country will be very incensed by such an attitude, and I honestly believe that serious civil disorder could result if there was trouble with Israel- the saving grace so far (if you can call it that) has been that the people who feel most strongly about it (the Christians) have been able so far to keep our government nice and cozy with Israel, so the issue hasn't come up.



posted on Jan, 14 2006 @ 06:59 PM
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In the end, all nations will come against Israel fits in nicely with the pre-tribulation rapture, don't you think?

If all bible-believing Christians are gone, who is left to complain?
I think the scenario the soldier was talking about will happen if the bible is true.

Zech 14:2 I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem to fight against it; the city will be captured, the houses ransacked, and the women raped.



posted on Jan, 14 2006 @ 07:08 PM
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I have to say people in america are not that crazy over relgion. SO I do not feel that the relgious followign would be enough to start a civil war. Most americans are money concerned. I mean lets look at a major monotary/ relgious ethical debate in teh country. Abortion. Most realy relgious people will tell you that it is a life and that it should be protected and saved. However at about $300+ an abortion and at 1.5 million a year thats a big money maker. Now that hasnt broken america in two.

I dot see how a predominant christain country would go nuts if USA invaded Israel a jewish country. Unless if the USA said it was going after them because they were jews then I think every relgious person who actaully cared about their faith or should I say had faith would get quite worried.

Lets face it. True faith in relgion in the USA is not somehting major. People arent faith oriented really its about money.

just my 2cents.

and good post I like the reasoining.



posted on Jan, 15 2006 @ 12:26 AM
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Probably will never happen. AIPAC has too powerful of a lobby in Washington. I find it interesting that you are mentioning christians refusing to fight Israel. I know it is pretty much a given with Jews, but I had never considered Christians being pro-Israel. Is this a common Christian feeling? I would think that Christians would be anti-Israel, you know, the Jews killing Jesus and all... Haven't you seen the Passion of the Christ?



posted on Jan, 18 2006 @ 09:47 AM
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First off my thanks to you and others for your posts and views.

First off let me say I am a Christian from the Olde School Baptists or what is called Primitive Baptists.

I do not believe that the current day Israel is the Israel of the Olde Testament times. I know that most of the People in Israel are secular ..not religious. They also have a very high number of athiests and humanists among them. Anything but Olde Testament Israelites. This knowlege is kept from many Americans deliberately to keep Americans ignorant.
Now to be fair to the people inhabiting this nation of Israel of which we are speaking...they do have a very powerful religious group among them who weild much power and influence inside and outside Israel.
However ...if you look carefully...at events in the last 15 years ..the American Government has yanked the rug or threatened to yank the rug out from under the Israelis to get them to behave accordingly several times. This too is carefully hidden from the public and the media. Not reported.
We have done the same to the Muslims too.

One fact kept from most Christians and the general public today .. and deliberately..is a Israeli policy called the "Sampson Complex" This policy was taken up in place of the olde policy called the "Masada Complex" . The new policy.. The Sampson Complex... was taken up when the Israelis acquired nuclear weapons. I would suggest anyone intrested in this line of thought about any war involving the nation today called Israel...look this up on the web and find out what the Sampson Complex involves before considering getting us involved in any kind of war on the side of or against this nation today called Israel.

Furthermore Vagabond...for those who know Bible doctrine...if the nation called Israel today...regains the temple mount and build the temple again and begin the olde testament sacrafices and priesthood as so many "Christians " claim...then it is and never was a "finished work." The Israelis must finish it in lieu of Christian doctrine. Here in lies a huge problem. To quote the doctrine...is it a temple built with hands or a temple built without hands??? Bible doctrine claims a temple built without hands. A huge problem for those who can think outside of what passes so poorly for Christian doctrine today.
Also Vagabond..if the Israelis today regain the temple mount ..it will cause a immediate war with the nations surrounding them. I suspect this is the main reason they have not taken it as of yet. This does not keep the most radical of them from trying but the Israeli Government for now has better sense than this.
So many Christians have been duped by this new doctrine which was unknown before 1830s and John Darby and his taking up the vision of Margaret Mcdonald.
What I am telling you Vagabond is that someone out here in the "Christian Churchs" has hijacked the christian doctrine and replaced it with another doctrine which never was Christian...they have carefully overlaid the Christian Doctrine with a counterfit political doctrine and made it to look as if it was Christian doctrine. Many preachers are in on it..either knowlegably or ignorantly after being indoctrinated in this in bible colleges and seminarys. This doctrine was unknown before 1830.

Obviously I am not pro Israel of today. I am also not pro muslim for I know what they are about also.. Most Christians havent a clue about this..they are asleep at the wheel here and our education,media, and political institutions are helping to keep Amereicans asleep at the wheel.

What I am is anti ignorance and pro American.

Find out what the Sampson complex is ..look it up on the web..and you will discover a excellent reason for keeping American troops out of Israel. Thinking Americans will be shocked to learn what it is. You will not hear this on the news media ..which is "looking out for you."
I dont worry so much about a civil war in America over this issue. I have also learned to be very dubious about what passes for news and information here in America. I learned this long before home computers when I used to listen to Shortwave radio broadcasts when other nations would broadcast in English. Most peoples in America would be surprised to find how heavy a paper curtain is actually over America in the news and information format ..if you listen to only the major networks on the tube or the radio. I suspect this discovery is why so many are giving up on the major networks...CBS,NBC,ABC, CNN, and even Fox. They are going to the web for news and information...though one must be careful here as there is also alot of rubbish on the web.

I dont worry about our troops being executed for desertion. I reall Norman Schwartzkopf saying that policy is what demoralized the Iraqi troops in the first Gulf War. The Iraqis shot many who did not want to fight. One does not endear ones troops to ones self by executing them. Not bright to do this type of conduct..executing ones troops. Especially among Americans who still have a independent streak of which you speak. This is a thorn in the side of the NWO type thinkers. Americans still have this independent streak. Most Americans would rather give you the social "finger" than listen to alot of Un American drivel ..if you push them to far they will give you the end of a gun barrel to illustrate their point. NWO types havent quite figured out how to work thier way around this as of yet.

One more thing Vagabond and others ...this red state/blue state..rubbish is a political scam to divide Americans on artificial lines for political reasons..not for reasons of Americans. Both sides ..Republicans and Democrats are playing this red/blue state scam.
Another scam and very irresponsible too is this term "flyover states". It is the same type of scam.
My point is this is dividing ..not uniting. This is not "Leadership"!!! Understand?? It is not leadership by both partys. It is division. Americans ought to be smarter than this. If you are a Marine you understand Leadership from the Jump Start. Leadership is not a foreign concept to you. This is embodied in the very term Semper Fi. My understanding of U.S. Marines is that they know leadership from the lowest to the highest rank. They instinctively know to fill the gap irregardless of rank when conditions require and finish the job. This is not what you find in many of the other branchs of the military. It is definitely not what you find in the body politic. All Americans should know and understand this in regards to Leadership. Obviously many have forgotten this lesson.

Thanks to all for your posts.
Sorry for the length but I though it something that needed saying, especially about knowlege and leadership.

Orangetom



posted on Jan, 18 2006 @ 04:29 PM
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Thanks for the reply orangetom.

What concerns me is not so much what the true doctine is (seems kind of irrelevant to me as an atheist) but rather what the majority of Christians in America buy into. Whatever the religious implications of Israel regaining the temple may be (which I do not believe is even a necessity for such a scenario as I have suggested to play out) anything which might serve to put America at odds with Israel, in my opinion, can turn the alarming rift between Conservative Christians and less religious factions into an actual fracture in the unity of America.

The Red-state Blue-state phenomenon is crap to be sure, but it's popular crap. Never underestimate the power of bad ideas, especially bad ideas with good PR people. There's this mistaken notion that there are "two Americas" one consisting of the Great Lakes, North East, and West Coast, and one consisting of everything in between, and that the two are polar opposites. The people buy that crap, and what's worse, some of them don't have the common sense to realize that these ill-concieved "two Americas" can't survive without eachother.

I fully agree that the divisiveness is a bad idea. Leadership has been replaced by manipulation in American politics, and while it's best to lead a cohesive group, it's easier to manipulate a divided one. I'm not saying any of the stuff I'm talking about is a good idea, I'm only saying that I see America falling for a lot of dirty political tricks which could, in time, turn that independent streak of ours against one another, and send one faction or another looking to outsiders- even traditional enemies, for help (not unlike when the colonists turned to France during the revolution because they'd come to a point where they felt the greatest offense to their independence was coming from their own government).

It should even be remembered that there was talk of succession in New England during the war of 1812, and the South turned to Britain for help during the Civil War (The North was aided by the Russian Navy in that same war).

When Americans seek independence even from America, they usually look without for support, and this could be very dangerous if it were exploited, and it could be the answer to the problem the NWO faces.


Last but not least- I'm familiar with the story of Sampson and with the "if we go down, everyone goes down- regardless of involvement" thinking that has often been suggested to be Israeli policy. Personally I think it would be a dang good idea for America to draw up plans for that event, and be ready to wipe out Israel's nuclear forces at the drop of a hat if push ever comes to shove, because I for one don't want to die for Israel- even if Pat Robertson thinks they have a right to do whatever the hell they want.



posted on Jan, 18 2006 @ 05:38 PM
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Might I suggest this link I found on the Sampson Complex or more specifically, the Sampson Option.

Sampson Complex/Option




---warpfactor9



posted on Jan, 19 2006 @ 12:55 AM
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Thanks for your speedy reply. Great points you make in your post. I too do not want Americans to die for the Nation called Israel today. I think we use Israel to be a thorn in the side of the muslims ..sort of to be a check on them ..keeps them occupied. I also dont think the Israelis have much choice in the matter. I also dont think we are allies per se..more a relationship of convenience. It is this way with many of our so called allies.
I will also tell you this about most of what passes for Christianity today. Many Christiains to me are some of the dumbest and uninformed people Ive seen. Not all of them mind you but a great portion. To many of them buy into what their preachers tell them without checking up on it. By the way I am not far from Virginia Beach where Pat Robertson has his CBN Network. I think he should retire before he shoots his mouth off to many times. The last time he did that he got audited by the Government under Ronald Reagan. Im wondering if he will ever shoot his mouth off enough to get his 501c status revoked.
Agree too that the redstate/bluestate stuff is rubbish ..and popular..which makes the point again that alot of people dont think outside the boxes shoveled to them as excellence now days. It is useful for putting people on a string. I have been saying in some of my posts that I am insulted by this idea that all there is to America is either California/hollywood and the New York..this is the whole of America..nothing else counts. This cheap default setting played by the media and PR people really burns my backside. As if nothing else in America counts.
Also , Vagabond, your point about it is easier to manipulate a divided group is well stated. My term for this kind of manipulation by the body politic is " Occult" Hidden concealed. This kind of manipulation goes way back into ancient history and has religious implications. Most Christians dont know this either.

Wow...Great that you know about the Russians coming to our aid in the Civil War. Once again ..most Americans havent a clue about this. As I recall at one time the Admiral of the Russian Navy was a American named John Paul Jones. I believe he found himself out of a job and got one in Russia. Another piece of missing history from most history books.
There were and still are alot of olde family historys ..with strong ties to England. This is also not known by most Americans.
I am aware of the connections both in the North and the South to Great Britian..both in the War of 1812 when this nation was still on shaky footing and also in the Civil war.
You know , Vagabond , I am not far from Colonial Williamsburg here in Virginia. It burns my backside again to see Prince Charles or Margret Thatcher come to this area and make stops at the College of William and Mary. They have some olde ties to this college going back to the Colonial times. It is as if thier connections are part of a olde fiefdom or entitlement.
I have concluded that a portion of the college is sort of a British think tank..sort of like the Aspen Institute.
Obviously I am not a Anglophile. I have a great respect for history and the history of the British Nation and the Empire...but have no ambition to be a British Subject.....nor a UN Subject.
As to Pat Robertson and his beliefs..they dont represent me..in this. I think Pat and others are way off the mark here and are not teachnig Christian Doctrine but pharisee doctrine and trying to pass it off as Christian. It is not. This in similar fashion to what the Pharisees were doing to the olde testament nation of Israel ...substituting another doctrine for the Law of Moses and attempting to pass this off as the Law when it was no such thing. This is in some arenas called counterfitting or whoredom. Most Christians havent a clue about this.

YOu do have one point about a civil war that I have known for many years. In certain studys of Geo politics..it is known that nations which cannot be easily attacked ..the method is to arm their neighbors..to take them on for you while you are quietly steering the war from concealment and often managing both sides of the conflict. This is the role I predict for India ..to take on China if China defaults on the loans and technology given by the west. In similar fashion that the Japanese turned on their handlers..and loans leading to WW2.
The other way of taking on a nation to big for invasion is to divide it against itself...a Civil war. This one has been used many times in history. It is just not the way most history books read.

You are correct when you state that leadership has been replaced by manipulation in America. I believe this has been going on much longer than most even suspect. Technology has only enabled more of this manipulation.

Thanks for a great post,
Orangetom





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