It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

Iran to buy Chinese aircrafts to equip its fleet

page: 1
0
<<   2  3 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Jan, 2 2006 @ 12:39 PM
link   

Iranian charge d'affaires in China, Farhad Asadi said that talks are currently underway between Iran and independent states such as China on the prospect of purchasing aircraft to equip the country's air fleet.

In response to a question on whether Iran will use Chinese planes in its air fleet, he noted that Iran intends to procure its requirement from independent and friendly countries. He added that talks are currently underway on the issue and that any kind of cooperation in this respect will be welcomed.

Concerning collaboration and mutual relations in 2006, Asadi said that the two states currently enjoy the most favorable ties and referred to China as Iran's best trade partner.

"Iran and China have potentials for long-term collaboration based on mutual confidence and safeguarding each other's interests.

Full Article >>

Iran and China both have very authoritarian and often oppressive regimes on power. Both are in Unkil's bad books as well. It appears that China is collaborating with Iran for oil, gas, etc. It will be interesting to see which chinese airplanes they choose. My best bet is on the rather cheap but effective J-7 (Mig-21 copy). Perhaps they might be interested in the FC-1 as well.




posted on Jan, 2 2006 @ 01:11 PM
link   
not quite sure, They have actually preordered 70~80 fc-1 s. as soon as I find the source, I let u know.

There is no point of buying j-7 when iranian aerospace industries could build more capable planes.

Just an update on the iranian Shafagh fighter (russian I-2000 project, or whatever the name is), apparently, the first prototype has already made its debut fly, 2 years ahead in the project.


RESPECT

[edit on 2-1-2006 by proprog]



posted on Jan, 2 2006 @ 01:11 PM
link   
If I was in charge of buying aircraft from China for Iran I think I'd go for the J-10. Thyere would be no merit at all in buying the J-7 when China itself is doing its utmost to get rid of it.

[edit on 2-1-2006 by waynos]



posted on Jan, 2 2006 @ 01:15 PM
link   

Originally posted by waynos
If I was in charge of buying aircraft from China for Iran I think I'd go for the J-10.


I doubt if the J-10 is on sale. Otherwise Pakistan (largest user of Chinese weaponry and close ally of China that helps China by illegally transferring F-16's and what not to China to Rev Eng.) would have surely bought J-10's instead of the 70 odd F-16's that they have commited to buy.



posted on Jan, 2 2006 @ 01:19 PM
link   
Not necessarily, and who is to say they wont buy it at some future time? Don't forget a large part of military buying is politics driven. How else might Pakistand cozy up to the USA if it refused to buy F-16's and bought J-10's instead?

As for China refusing to export the J-10, why would they? They themselves are importing Su-27's and will be perfectly aware of the state of the art in the Aerospace world so thay can hardly think they are protecting some major secret technology. Also the £$£$billions that exports bring in help to pay for the next generation.



posted on Jan, 2 2006 @ 01:38 PM
link   
apparently, there is no credible source for this, but according to numerous posts on different military forums, Iran has pre-ordered as many as 80 FC-1s.

If I was in charge of buying aircraft, I would have ordered 2 sqds of Su-30MK from russia. chinese are importing russian planes.


RESPECT

[edit on 2-1-2006 by proprog]



posted on Jan, 2 2006 @ 10:42 PM
link   

Originally posted by Stealth Spy
that helps China by illegally transferring F-16's and what not to China to Rev Eng.


Was that nessary?. Or should i say can it be proven without google?

-------

This is most likey training aircraft K-8 or JL-9 or maybe the L-15. The irainas already have their own fighter programs and are already russian aircraft buyers.

The iraians have the money to buy the aircraft so i think they would choose a more capable expensive aircraft like the Mig-29(which they already have) And possibly in the process of getting more instead of a unproven aircraft like the FC-1 or J-10 which uses a russian engine which cannot be exported. The J-10 is in the class of the Mig-29 and i wouldn't think the iranians would buy two different aircraft with similar capabilites. Changing missiles or buying two sets of missiles would be quite hard also

The article does not say for a military purpose because china also sells civillain aircraft and could be used to modernize irans civil airliners. It didn't mention military purposes in particular

So the most likey bet would be inexpensive trainers like the K-8 which can be produced under license or civil aircraft which could also be produced under license.

------------

I've seen this article floated around in different forums casuing a sir but the bottom line is it does not mention military aircraft nor are they going to buy any. But the word that stands out is co-opperation

[edit on 2-1-2006 by chinawhite]



posted on Jan, 3 2006 @ 12:58 AM
link   
@ chinawhite : Are you trying to say Pakistan did not lend China any of its F-16's ?


Also - I would not be surprised if Iran transfers a few F-14's as well



posted on Jan, 3 2006 @ 01:14 AM
link   

Originally posted by Stealth Spy
@ chinawhite : Are you trying to say Pakistan did not lend China any of its F-16's ?


What do you think i was trying to say
. I remember it was first mentioned in a US white paper when models of the J-10 were first seen and has developed since to pakistan, thailand and even some point chinese engineers in south korea. Notice when you google things like this it is a brief mention without any proof it it actually happening.

The funny thing is. Pre-tiananmen the US was going to give china the technology it needed under the peace pearl project. Then 89 dawned and after that china went the soviet way with them offering technology which surpassed the performance of the AN/APG-66 and similar avonics eg Phazotron Zhuk-8II.

What could possibly china want with the F-16 that needed it to be shipped to china that couldn't be inspected in the country by a team of experts.



Also - I would not be surprised if Iran transfers a few F-14's as well


Yes, china could really use some F-14s


----------

If you a planning to answer me with a flood of googled articles dont bother. You come with a picture or you come with some type of confession

[edit on 3-1-2006 by chinawhite]



posted on Jan, 3 2006 @ 02:32 AM
link   
Well, I support Chinawhite.

If Rassian know China would export J-10which use their engine, they will do their best to push their Su-30 to Iranian.
I don't think Iran will think to buy J-10 seriously, because Iran couldn't get any material suppot from China when they get trouble with US by any possibility, but Rassia.
On the other hand. Even a foolishman can make out that FC-1 has no capability to competit with any other 3'th generation fighter aircraft. So there is no chance to think that Iran will buy FC-1, but if I am a Pakistanian, I will consider seriously to import J-10 to in stead of FC-1 whereas Rissia has no chance to cumber this trade.

[edit on 3-1-2006 by emile]



posted on Jan, 3 2006 @ 02:45 AM
link   
A Pakistani Brigadior that confessed in an interview to Pakistan lending China (this issue was common knodwledge earlier as well) one of its F-16's in exchange for a discount on M-11 missiles that Pak bought from China.


One Pakistani military officer, reportedly at one-star level, noted on April 18, 2002 : "China has added several features [to the FC-1/JF-17] that were directly reverse-engineered from a US-made F-16 Falcon jet fighter provided to Beijing by Pakistan. The Pakistani F-16, sold to Islamabad during the 1980s, was given to the PLAAF as part of a secret military trade deal between Pakistan and China. In return for the US-made F-16 jet, Pakistan received a deep discount on the purchase of Chinese-made M-11 ballistic missiles. The new Chinese J-10 supersonic fighter is designed to take on and defeat US-built F-16 and F-18 fighters that make up the bulk of American airpower."

link

I dunno what exactly China did with it, however several internet links say it was used for the J-10 projects, however several chinese aviation experts remark that it was used more for the China-Pakistan FC-1 project than the J-10.

This is an open secret that is not confined to "googled articles" as you describe it. It has even found mention in Jane's and in several US Govt research papers and is logically credible as well. A lot of credible sources like Kanwa, FAS.org, globalsecurity, Jane's, Asia times, say the same thing. Heck even this USAF site says the same thing.

The USAF site reads

...China received a single F-16 from Pakistan ...

www.airpower.maxwell.af.mil...


The J-10 could have benefited from U.S. technology in two ways. First, the Israeli LAVI was greatly influenced by access to General Dynamics F-16 technology. Israel passed on the knowledge of some of this technology, which may have included avionics, advanced composite materials, and flight control specification,27 to Chengdu. Fly-by-wire technology may have been shared as well. ....J-10 benefited from PLA access to Pakistan's F-16 fighters.

www.globalsecurity.org...


FAS says >>

..a single F-16 provided by Pakistan..

www.fas.org...

Asia Times says the same >> atimes.com...

Wiki's article reads :

In addition, the PLA has attempted to build an indigenous aerospace and military industry with its production of the J-10, which currently is in production. It reportedly contains technology supplied by Israel from its Lavi fighter program as well as technology reverse-engineered from an F-16 reportedly given to the PRC by Pakistan.

link

Asia Week says >>

It borrows technology from the America's front-line F-16 fighter, believed to have been acquired via Pakistan

www.asiaweek.com...

Febuary 2005 issue of Kanwa says :

Pakistan loaned a single F-16 to China for technical evaluation,the aircraft give deep impression on pilot and engineers alike

www.centurychina.com...

Another ..

The 1992 sale of the 28 Falcons to Pakistan was canceled during the last days of the Bush Sr. administration because Islamabad had openly purchased nuclear weapons technology from China. The sudden appearance of Chinese nuclear-tipped M-11 ballistic missiles brought a swift embargo of U.S. arms sales on Pakistan, including the previously ordered F-16 Falcons.

link

Google will give you hundreds more links about the same thing ... but i wont post it here.

Now dont tell me your word is more credible than half the internet and some of the best defence websites and Journals like Jane's, Kanwa, globalsecurity, FAS and US Govt and USAF studies.
_____

Getting to the Iran issue, i doubt if Iran would buy L-15's (which are nothing more than Yak-130's) when Russia is alredy said to have transferred the Yak-130's technology to Iran (just like it did with China's L-15) for Iran's AJT programme.

If Iran wanted to improve numbers - the new J-7's seem to be a good idea. Chinese cargo transporters and helicopters cannot be ruled out as well.

[edit on 3-1-2006 by Stealth Spy]



posted on Jan, 3 2006 @ 02:58 AM
link   

Originally posted by emile
If Rassian know China would export J-10which use their engine, they will do their best to push their Su-30 to Iranian.
I don't think Iran will think to buy J-10 seriously, because Iran couldn't get any material suppot from China when they get trouble with US by any possibility, but Rassia.
On the other hand. Even a foolishman can make out that FC-1 has no capability to competit with any other 3'th generation fighter aircraft. So there is no chance to think that Iran will buy FC-1, but if I am a Pakistanian, I will consider seriously to import J-10 to in stead of FC-1 whereas Rissia has no chance to cumber this trade.


Well both the FC-1 and the J-10 use Russian engines. I dont think Russia would have any toruble in approving engine sale to Iran .. given Russia's relations with Iran. I expect the Shafagh and the Iranian Yak-130 based AJT to be powered by Russian Al-55's or RD-93's.

Hmmm...now i am wondering if NPO Saturn's relucatnce to provide Al-31F engines for the J-10's played any role in Pakistan not buying the J-10 (Considering that India is Saturn's most important customer and has several on going multi-billion $ projects ongoing with India)


There is no assurance from the Russian side that it would provide Pakistani FC-1's with RD-93 engines after it announced that it would not do so a few months back.



posted on Jan, 3 2006 @ 03:14 AM
link   

Originally posted by waynos
There would be no merit at all in buying the J-7 when China itself is doing its utmost to get rid of it.


Far from the truth. China is churning out newer variants of the J-7 every now and then incorporating new technologies into it. The J-7MG for instance is a pretty good airplane. China's J-7 production lines are very much open and are rolling out new J-7's as we speak.

However it appears that China is looking to get rid of the hundreds of J-6's (Mig-19) in its inventory. FC-1's and new J-7's would make for good Mig-19 replacemants.



posted on Jan, 3 2006 @ 03:31 AM
link   
Clap Clap Clap...Excellent Excellent

Once again you prove you can only use google

now can you tell me where the evidence of pakistan giving a F-16 to china from? None of your sources mention where or even when it was done. Both sides have denied these claims and where is the F-16 bits located on the FC-1 or what technology on the F-16 is located in the F-16. With hundreds of sources on the internet i excepted a how essay about the simillarities. The other possiblity was the trade of the M-11 missiles for the F-16 which i doubt because the US was offering F-16s like hot cakes in the cold war. But at the time china did not have the money to equip its fleet with the F-16 so it decided on a upgrade program rather than buy american. Only after the collapse of the Peace pearl program did chian start getting serious about the J-10.

But then It was the Su-27 and Zhuk-8II radar instead of the american radar. China at the time had no use for the F-16


Originally posted by Stealth Spyquote: One Pakistani military officer, reportedly at one-star level, noted on April 18, 2002 : "China has added several features [to the FC-1/JF-17] that were directly reverse-engineered from a US-made F-16 Falcon jet fighter provided to Beijing by Pakistan.


Ahhh....SS

Maybe you should look inot that sites source
. I'll give you the heads up. located at the bottom is As noted in the chat-room on www.pakistanidefence.com. Now are you going to try pass that off again as a reliable source of information?



Google will give you hundreds more links about the same thing ... but i wont post it here.


It seems thats the only way you know how to do. I aviod talking to you in other threads when i could have easily replied but you have made all these snip comments about such and such.

The rest of your sources are all quoting each other. Which one is the earliest is the one which was reading to much white papers. Thats the problem with your type of argument they are based on Articles which use second hand sources

Here is my list of your sources that i higlighted because you missed out on some words

"J-10 benefited from PLA access to Pakistan's F-16 fighters"
Global
I never said china did not have acess to the F-16. I said china did not recieve a F-16

"The plane is reportedly a hybrid of the U.S. F-16 A/B"
www.airpower.maxwell.af.mil...
Something you missed out when you googled

"F-16 reportedly given to the PRC by Pakistan"
Some reference site you said was wikipedia

"believed to have been acquired via Pakistan"
Asia week

"Febuary 2005 issue of Kanwa claim that PLAAF is copying F-16"
I can't believe you use Kanwa as a source

And quoting newsmax??. Whats with that. Its a free to air website with excesive pop-ups


Now dont tell me your word is more credible than half the internet and some of the best defence websites and Journals like Jane's, Kanwa, globalsecurity, FAS and US Govt and USAF studies.


Well FAS has a picture of the Mig-1.44 as the J-10. Kanwa reported that china was buying the rafale and has a F-16 copying program all the way to 2005 even through the J-0 entered service in 2003. You did not mentioned janes nor do i think its creditable

The government reported every chinese in america was a spy or had some connection with spying. They also said china was building a 80,000ton carrier in shanghai by 2010. 1000 missiles at taiwan by 2006. 100 ICBMs in the 90s, defence budget at 90billion dollars The list goes on....



posted on Jan, 3 2006 @ 03:47 AM
link   
As you nouted that China has been going to import some engines that taken from Falcon which Pakistan import from US. Have you thought where these engines will be used? If those were used in J-10, what relative with Rassia? If J-10 used some engine that just copy with some improve from F100 F-16 used, why Rassia has trouble with India? All of things Rassia can do only is sale more Su-30 to India to get balance. Don't forget J-10 was developed from Lavi so there is enough space/capability to fit any engine F-16 could used.
I just laugh at Pakistanian how stupid they are just join FC-1 that only a dismoded aeroplane

But if Pakistan factually move on J-10, that will enough to cause your India getting nervous



posted on Jan, 3 2006 @ 03:51 AM
link   
Nothing China has is a serious threat to the US, so I don't see how this is at all usefull.

They'd be better off saving their money, because the only AFs they are going to be fighting any time soon are the USAF and Isreali AF, both of which they stand no chance against.



posted on Jan, 3 2006 @ 03:53 AM
link   
Anyway information about th F-7MF


Its more of a upgrade in the works program but i wouldn't think it would fit the Irains defence needs seeing as how they need more of a Anti-shipping aircraft than a short range aircraft with a small load. It might be cheap but it is less capable while iran needs more capable fighters which can perform more tasks. The most important thing is it is not developed yet and the other J-7s do not have BVR capability which would be a must for iran

The irains already have a aircraft program which is better than the J-7 because A) Its cheaper B)It has BVR and C)They have control of production

Any chinese fighter at the momment is unable to furfill this task and the russians are more than able to fill that task with the Mig-29 upgrads and possible Su-27 variant of some sort. China cannot deliver the FC-1 nor J-10 and the only country that could is russia. But I think most of you guys are talking about this with out knowing the russian iranian relationship. THey are more closer than china and iran as a hint.

China at this point only has sol iran obsolete tanks and Anti-ship missiles as a stockstake sale to get rid of surplus weapons and doesn't really need nor want to sell a fighter which is more needed for the home market. Maybe in 20years or so chian will export fighters but right now china needs them for its own moderization program which is evident in its purchase of the Su-27.


Originally posted by Stealth Spy
Well both the FC-1 and the J-10 use Russian engines. I dont think Russia would have any toruble in approving engine sale to Iran


Yes iran is a friend but more importantly a customer. If you give away your sales your not going to have sales. You get it?. RUssia is not as friendly as you think


Considering that India is Saturn's most important customer and has several on going multi-billion $ projects ongoing with India


China is saturns most important customer. More aircraft = More engines =more money


just like it did with China's L-15


You would think that wouldn't you. But the systems on the L-15 as indegenious. I am not talking about russian help and such i am talking about 100% chinese designed. The Yakovlev company lent assistance with the design of the plane not the systems. or google otherwise?

Thanks to ImageShack for Free Image Hosting



posted on Jan, 3 2006 @ 03:55 AM
link   

Originally posted by American Mad Man
Nothing China has is a serious threat to the US, so I don't see how this is at all usefull.


Now coming for the american. Never has any chinese stated that china was going to export any aircraft and i even outlined why and my personal objection to the iranian sale.

Please troll somewhere else AMM



posted on Jan, 3 2006 @ 04:00 AM
link   

Originally posted by chinawhite
Now coming for the american. Never has any chinese stated that china was going to export any aircraft and i even outlined why and my personal objection to the iranian sale.

Please troll somewhere else AMM


No trolling here, just facts.

Fact #1 - Irans biggest air threat comes from the US and Isreal

Fact #2 - Nothing in Chinas aircraft inventory will be able to counter Isreal or Americas air superiority.

Thus, I think any purchase by Iran would be wastefull, as the money spent would be wasted if the aircraft were ever needed.



posted on Jan, 3 2006 @ 04:03 AM
link   
And i didn't outline that already?. If you want to bash china do it somewhere else

PS: Nothing in chinas inventory? If you want to twist the rules china can export thousands of Su-27s.



new topics

top topics



 
0
<<   2  3 >>

log in

join