Al-Zarqawi the Superterrorist - Who Can Prove He Really Exists?

Here's the latest from the AP:



* The mysterious "al-Qaeda Internet posting" saing four Iraqis including a husband and wife carried out the bombing wasn't even correct. I guess this guy had to get out quick smart and correct the bungle by restating that, despite the inconsistencies, yes, it was indeed al-Zarqawi and al-Qaeda.

* The website address has not been released for public scrutiny.

* The evidence cited in this article is, "The conclusion has arrived."

Well, for example Jordan says he exist

He was born Ahmed Fadeel al-Khalayleh, an ethnic Palestinian, 38 years ago and grew up in poverty in the grim industrial town of Zarqa in Jordan.

On his return to Jordan (he went to fight in Afghanistan in the 1980s) in 1992, he has been jailed for six years.

Is the Hashimite Kingdom of Jordan just a bunch of liers?

tzk,tzk,tzk...

Originally posted by Riwka
Well, for example Jordan says he exist

Ooo, well that settles it then.

He was born Ahmed Fadeel al-Khalayleh, an ethnic Palestinian, 38 years ago and grew up in poverty in the grim industrial town of Zarqa in Jordan.

On his return to Jordan (he went to fight in Afghanistan in the 1980s) in 1992, he has been jailed for six years.

So where's the evidence that he is masterminding all these attacks, limping from nation to nation and running the show? For all you know, he may have died in prison before making his "escape". Where even is the evidence that he masterminded these latest bombings?

Is the Hashimite Kingdom of Jordan just a bunch of liers?

The entire kingdom? I doubt it. But their intelligence heads? Maybe. Or perhaps they're just repeating information given to them...

tzk,tzk,tzk...

No evidence, just restatements. tsk, tsk, tsk...

[edit on 2005-11-13 by wecomeinpeace]

@ wecomeinpeace

Question has been to proof his existence - legal term for professionals would be suspected mastermind, right?

It is Jordan's close ties to the West that made it a target for the attacks

Yep.

GID (Jordan's General Intelligence Directorate) has become the CIA's most important and effective counter-terrorism ally in the ME (Jordan is a partner to the American policy of "extraordinary renditions" ) . Jordan receives annual military and economic aid from the U.S. totalling $450 million. (Analysts believe the sum does not include the U.S. financing of Jordanian intelligence).



[edit on 13-11-2005 by Riwka]

Originally posted by Syrian Sister
That's not hear say,

It is hearsay, iraqi police arrested 2 inocent british army soldiers.

that what your own puppet police said on camera. Puppet police which have no reason to lie about this because they actually gain privellages through the US and british occupation.

The police are activly known to be infiltrated by the insurgents, but ofcourse you and I know this.

And as for respecting "representitives of the law", do you expect the french to respect the vicci french government and it's security aparatus? If that is, you know what vicci french means.

Afraid not, care to explain?
BTW, are you trying to say something about the french security services? If so...why??

Originally posted by Riwka
Question has been to proof his existence - legal term for professionals would be suspected mastermind, right?

Firstly, no one has produced anything other than "Jordan says so" as proof of his existence, so "proof" of his existence has not been shown. But even if someone produces something to show that this man indeed existed (honestly I don't doubt he did), all we have proof of is that there was a person by that name who was in a Jordanian prison for conspiring to overthrow the monarchy. That's it. However since his alleged release and disappearance into the shadows in 1999, his name has become the quintessential bogeyman of Islamic terror, consecutive to the escalation of terrorist attacks around the globe. Within minutes of an attack, a connection to this bogeyman is cited and splashed all over the media. What's to say this guy didn't die in prison and they chose his identity as the "face of terror"? (By the way, has anyone seen The Usual Suspects with Kevin Spacey? This guy reminds me so much of Kaiser Sozei.) So where's the proof that he is the mastermind of all these acts? I wouldn't be asking the question if the propaganda machine weren't so transparent, if there weren't so many laughable inconsistencies in reports about him, if he weren't credited with everything under the sun, and if the evidence were anything more than a) postings on "Islamic extremist websites" that no one ever gets to see, and b) intelligence officials citing other intelligence officials citing other intelligence officials.

Let's take a look at an average propaganda piece concerning Zarqawi:



And on and on it goes. Have a read through the article and you'll find it's simply "officials" and "aides" saying they "believe" this and "believe" that, and citing each other in an endless loop. A cites B, who cites C, who cites A, and a legend is born.

What about Powell's speech to the UN Security Council?

"We are not surprised that Iraq is harboring Zarqawi and his subordinates. This understanding builds on decades-long experience with respect to ties between Iraq and al Qaeda."

This has been completely debunked. Iraq had no connection to al-Qaeda. "Decades-long experience" Colin? So where did the intelligence that Powell cited come from? It was fabricated, just like the intel for the rest of his WMD speech. Whether Powell knew he was lying or not is moot. The point is intelligence agencies are not telling the truth. I could go on for ages about Powell's speech, such as his "dirty bomb threat", which the FBI later caught the CIA out as having fabricated.

GID (Jordan's General Intelligence Directorate) has become the CIA's most important and effective counter-terrorism ally in the ME (Jordan is a partner to the American policy of "extraordinary renditions" ) . Jordan receives annual military and economic aid from the U.S. totalling $450 million. (Analysts believe the sum does not include the U.S. financing of Jordanian intelligence).

So what's your point? That Jordan is in bed with the CIA? You're not helping here.

If people find proving his connection to all that he is credited with too challenging, and I can understand why because he's alleged to have done A LOT, then let's first focus on the latest incident in Amman, Jordan for starters. What is the evidence that spurred the global media and Jordanian intelligence to start telling the world that al-Qaeda and Zarqawi are behind it within hours or even minutes of the attack.

Originally posted by wecomeinpeace

GID (Jordan's General Intelligence Directorate) has become the CIA's most important and effective counter-terrorism ally in the ME (Jordan is a partner to the American policy of "extraordinary renditions" ) . Jordan receives annual military and economic aid from the U.S. totalling $450 million. (Analysts believe the sum does not include the U.S. financing of Jordanian intelligence).

So what's your point? That Jordan is in bed with the CIA? You're not helping here.

My point? This has been an answer to your news source



Indeed, Jordan is exactly the kind of country that al-Qaeda would especially enjoy targeting. It is a Muslim nation that does not subscribed to its nasty misinterpretation of Islam.


Zarqawi's Jordanian Agenda is interesting:

Zarqawi was involved in a plot to target hotels frequented by Jewish and American tourists in Amman during millennial celebrations.

In October 2002, Zarqawi planned and facilitated the assassination of U.S. diplomat Lawrence Foley in Amman.

One of Zarqawi's most successful operations targeting Jordanian interests was the bombing of the Jordanian Embassy in Baghdad in August 2003.

In April 2004, Jordanian officials announced they had thwarted a major plot to attack various locations in Amman, including the Jordanian General Intelligence Department (GID) Headquarters, the Prime Ministry, and the U.S. Embassy.

Jordanian authorities maintain that the twenty tons of explosives intended for the multiple coordinated attacks contained more than ninety-two chemicals and would have resulted not only in a large explosion but a chemical cloudd [...] the bomb had the potential to injure 160,000 people.

[ emphasis added]

AND... the Jordanians (...such lovely people.... - emphasis added in the article)

.....seem to believe it was Zarqawi...

In Zarqa, Munder Moomeni, a 38-year-old former soldier who lives next to Zarqawi's house, 13 Ramzi Street, described his former neighbour as "a bastard";. "By killing Jordanians here in Jordan, civilian Jordanians going to a wedding, they did something that not even a Jew would do," he said.

Jordanians turn against al-Qa'eda leader over bombings

[edit on 13-11-2005 by Riwka]

i gave u my last vote for the month wecomeinpeace
due to the fact you rock it

i believe that there probably is no evidence; and this is just a Psychological operation

i have this perception of the US/NATO/Anzac military machine as being ultimately powerful *they all work togeather often*

thats why i dont think you will ever see any "Good" evidence, nor will I

well; i think of it this way

"IF Zarqawi exists; and is actually a bad guy ; than the CIA sucks, the NSA sucks, the DIA sucks, the MI6/MI5 sucks, the KGB sucks, Moussad sucks

you get where im going right?

Cuz Zarqawi has totally outsmarted and outfoxed all of these Agencys, among dozens of others.

So, your telling me we spend HOW MUCH Tax $$$ to make these agencys NOT SUCK, and all they can do is make up excuses for SUCKING?

Sounds to me like the CIA/NSA/DIA/etc etc etc is LYING/BS'n/Pullin My Leg

They have satilites that can photo my licence plate number from earth orbit; IR thermal NV Xray among many other methods of viewing

They contacts in every nook an cranny on earth
They have access to the most sophisticated forensic science ever devised in the history of mankind
They have been Allegedly Searching the ME for years now; and yet he gets away every time

well theres only 3 options here *maybe theres more but i dont see em yet*

Option 1
Zarqawi really exists and is truely the most crafty SOB ever; probably the greatest genious of all time; IQ maybe 500 to 1,000
*Keep in mind he always outsmarts the entire CIA/NSA/etc etc*

Option 2
Zarqawi really is a fabricated scapegoat for Classified CIA operations

Option 3
The human race is extremely stupid; and incapable of figuring anything out.
Mixed Reports , contradictions, referancing someones referance of a referance of a referance back to yourself
Yes; on the outside of the box it can appear as a
"Totally Random Mix of Unfortunate Events with a Dash of Common human stupidity"
So basically

option 1- CIA is stupid / Zarqawi smart
option 2 - CIA is way smarter than they pretend 2 be / Zarqawi on payroll
option 3 - We are all stupid and hallucinating

Remember; we Could just be inmates at an insane asylum, and THIS "reality' is just our massive hallucinations...

im just speculating and rambling here; its late
lol ill shut up

Hey i just realized

Since this zarqawi fella seems 2 be the uber genious

why dont we fire the CIA and NSA for incompetance and Hire this Zarqawi dude? obviously hes better fit for the job

He is always 2 steps ahead of the CIA *according to "news agencys"*

Well how to make the CIA better? FIRE all these nincompoops and Hire a true intel-spy-type dude; Zarqawi!

Anyone that can hide from CIA for this long obviously deserves to be ina top position in the CIA

National Security here guys; he knows stuff we dont
We need him for our own security; hes got an IQ of 887!!
And hes remarkably lucky!

Thats exactly what the CIA needs; someone with a BRAIN!
Ha Ha Ha Ha



but then agian...i feel that he dont even exist either anymore
if he does exist HIRE him!!
smart buisness move...
if u cant beat em. hire em

Can we just be honest here and admit there is no amount of evidence that would make you change your mind about this? You have a conspiracy theory and anything that doesn’t fit into that little box will be dismissed. It’s the 9/11 conspiracies all over again.

I mean, your best evidence seems to be some random Iraqis who said "he doesn’t exist!” Which seems to trump government's intelligence, documentation, provable lineage and even confessions from the very people you claim don’t exist.



[edit on 13-11-2005 by Dronetek]

Originally posted by Dronetek
Can we just be honest here and admit there is no amount of evidence that would make you change your mind about this? You have a conspiracy theory and anything that doesn’t fit into that little box will be dismissed. It’s the 9/11 conspiracies all over again.

I mean, your best evidence seems to be some random Iraqis who said "he doesn’t exist!” Which seems to trump government's intelligence, documentation, provable lineage and even confessions from the very people you claim don’t exist.



[edit on 13-11-2005 by Dronetek]

It would be rather easy to prove Zarqawi is real and behind all this.
Get an actual factual confirmation of his involvement for starters.
Get at least a picture of him that isn't 10 years old or clearly doctored(the last one of him in circulation is a rahash of an old photo with a new background pasted into it, has been shown here on ATS very clearly).
Get someone to withness hes actualy behind this. Not some unnamed Western source or unnamed Middle Eastern or his name being chanted by people that get their info from the same sources we get it spoonfed(Media/Govt sources) and definatly some withness report that comes from torture. Information recieved from torture is the most unreliable information you can get.

Seconds after something happens its claimed "Zarqawi did it" (just like in 2001 seconds after something happend "Usama did it").

In the last few years, no matter what happens, there is never a shred of evidence or facts delivered for anything. All we get is media and govt sources making statements that we are blindly supposed to believe and take as fact.

[edit on 13/11/05 by thematrix]

Originally posted by Riwka
My point? This has been an answer to your news source

www.cnn.com...

It is Jordan's close ties to the West that made it a target for the attacks .

Please visit the link provided for the complete story.

Indeed, Jordan is exactly the kind of country that al-Qaeda would especially enjoy targeting. It is a Muslim nation that does not subscribed to its nasty misinterpretation of Islam.

What do you mean "to answer my news source"? No, no, you're missing the point. Earlier in the thread I said that Jordan gets much of its WoT intel from the West and the Zarqawi super-being myth is thus propagated. Seekerof stated that this was untrue. And now, you are coming out arguing that Jordan intel is deeply in bed with the CIA and has all these close ties to the West. Thank you for pointing this out, because I wasn't aware of the extent to which they are in bed together. Now it makes perfect sense why this identity they have apparently chosen is Jordanian. By arguing this point, you're actually helping the case that you're trying to refute.

AND... the Jordanians (...such lovely people.... - emphasis added in the article)

.....seem to believe it was Zarqawi...

In Zarqa, Munder Moomeni, a 38-year-old former soldier who lives next to Zarqawi's house, 13 Ramzi Street, described his former neighbour as "a bastard";. "By killing Jordanians here in Jordan, civilian Jordanians going to a wedding, they did something that not even a Jew would do," he said.

More "the Jordanian people believe it was him" after the fact. A neighbor says, "he's a bastard". Come on, I've been nice in asking for just proof of the Amman hotel connection for a first step. Is this the only evidence? His neighbor thinks he's a bastard?

I've only glanced at them but I'm sure you've read the news reports and must be aware of the evidence that caused them to start shouting his name. What is it exactly? WHY does his neighbor say he's a bastard. What did he read or see? Don't be shy. Lay it out.

I WANT TO BELIEVE!

Originally posted by Dronetek
Can we just be honest here and admit there is no amount of evidence that would make you change your mind about this? You have a conspiracy theory and anything that doesn’t fit into that little box will be dismissed. It’s the 9/11 conspiracies all over again.

I've seen the footage of real planes flying into the real buildings. They have video captures of Atta at the airport. They say they found his bags with all sorts of airplane and Jihad goodies in them like airline uniforms and a "How to Use Boxcutters for Dummies", etc etc. He and his devout Islamic die-hard buddies were boozing it up at a stripclub boasting about their upcoming mission, remember? One guy's passport even survived the hellfire of an exploding airplane and landed a few blocks away. Now THAT'S reasonable evidence. Easily planted, sure, but reasonable. So where's the evidence of Zarqawi's masterminding all these attacks?

I mean, your best evidence seems to be some random Iraqis who said "he doesn’t exist!”

I never cited that. Must have been someone else. Besides, I'm not trying to prove he doesn't exist. As I said, proving a negative is impossible - can you prove the Easter Bunny doesn't exist? All I'm asking is that those who are screaming for his blood prove that he is behind all these attacks.

Which seems to trump government's intelligence

Intelligence citing intelligence citing intelligence. What's the evidence that sparked this merry-go-round?

...documentation...

You mean those bogus letters addressed to him, or more intelligence citing intelligence? What documentation are you referring to?

...provable lineage...

So we have a name. This is good. It's a start at least. Personally, I believe the man behind the name DID exist. A lot of extremists exist, or existED. So why aren't you calling for their blood over the Jordanian bombing. How do we know it wasn't the MEK?

Or me?

Or YOU?

...and even confessions from the very people you claim don’t exist.

Confession to what, exactly? Where? Who? The Nick Berg beheading? Link please. And if he was making videos back then, but hasn't since, then wouldn't that support the claim of the "random Iraqis" which you cited?

I want to believe, really I do. Because the alternative is very, very scary.

[edit on 2005-11-13 by wecomeinpeace]

Originally posted by wecomeinpeace

I've only glanced at them but I'm sure you've read the news reports

I did not only this, wecomeinpeace.

Jordan is not only popular with Israeli tourists, lots of Israeli citizen have friends and also buisiness partners in the city - and so do I have.

We all spent that night ringing around to find out whether our friends, buisiness partners and relatives (thank G-d non of my family has been over there at the time of the bombing) are still alive.



[edit on 13-11-2005 by Riwka]

Originally posted by Riwka
We all spent that night ringing around to find out whether our friends, buisiness partners and relatives (thank G-d non of my family has been over there at the time of the bombing) are still alive.

I'm glad to hear that your friends and relatives were untouched by the disaster, and I mean that.

I take it this is all part of the conspiracy?

www.foxnews.com...

AMMAN, Jordan — Jordanian security forces on Sunday arrested an Iraqi woman whose husband is suspected of blowing up one of three Amman hotels after being tipped off by an Al Qaeda claim that a husband-and-wife team participated in the attacks that killed 57 other people.

The woman failed to blow herself up during a wedding reception at the Radisson SAS hotel on Wednesday night after apparently struggling with the cord on her explosives belt, Deputy Prime Minister Marwan Muasher said. Her husband saw her fumbling and "pushed her out of the ballroom," he said. "Once she was out, he blew himself up."

Edit: CNN just ran the video taped confession fromt his woman also.

[edit on 13-11-2005 by Dronetek]

Originally posted by Dronetek
CNN just ran the video taped confession fromt his woman also.

Excellent, now they can interrogate this woman and find the location of the elusive mastermind, Zarqawi, right? Should be easy to trace from the combination of the website and this woman's testimony, combined with all the other intelligence and documentation. So I guess this will all be over within a few days and the world can rest easy. Or did he give her the orders Impossible Mission style? "This message will self-destruct in five seconds...praise Allah."

Hopefully it doesn't turn out that she knew nothing and was just going along with hubby, who is unfortunately in pieces now and unable to reveal details about Zarqawi.



[edit on 2005-11-13 by wecomeinpeace]

Can we just be honest here and admit there is no amount of evidence that would make you change your mind about this?

How about a high quality video with a close-up of AZ's face as he details an attack BEFORE it happens fllowed by him showing the front page of the days newspaper being posted on a reputable western forum with timestamp?

I know we can't just call him up on the cell phone, and ask that he do such things, but do you really think that [if he exists] he does not understand how to confirm times, proof of foreknowledge, and that showing his face would really help people believe he exists?

Originally posted by ArchAngel

Can we just be honest here and admit there is no amount of evidence that would make you change your mind about this?

How about a high quality video with a close-up of AZ's face as he details an attack BEFORE it happens fllowed by him showing the front page of the days newspaper being posted on a reputable western forum with timestamp?

I know we can't just call him up on the cell phone, and ask that he do such things, but do you really think that [if he exists] he does not understand how to confirm times, proof of foreknowledge, and that showing his face would really help people believe he exists?

If that evidence surfaced you would claim in was done in a studio by the CIA.

You kick some serious but!!! You remind me of me!

* The evidence cited in this article is, "The conclusion has arrived."

Logical analysis. glad to see there are still people in this world that think 2 + 2 =4 .

anyone ever wonder why these websites are completely anonymous, and why they are sometimes from Canadian or american proxies, ever wonder why they seem to always disapear the next day?

Ever wonder why the US and other world governments is taking something from the internet as positively true?

Aren't we all taught in school the internet is not a reliable source?

I case we can't expect much from people who came to the UN with a faked dossier lifted right off the net.