How to find women (and helping them find you)

This thread grew out of another one, called "No Finance, No Romance."

What business do I have starting this thread?

Well, for starters, I found me a woman, and have been lovingly married for seven years. But seriously, everyone who has questions, answers, or tacky comments, please put them here.


First, I'll begin with this website, which appears to actually be an advertizing major's resource. But hey, that is the business of romance, isn't it?

changingminds.org...


Seriously, I do NOT believe that only rich or muscled men can get women. I defy the hypothesis that you must settle for less.

Brother (or sister), Have you been getting enough sex?

If not, then someone out there has been getting all the love that was intended for you!

YES! someone has been stealing your sex life!

So let's work together, to take it back now!

First there's the "propinquity hyptothesis."

That is a two-dollar title for the theory that you will fall in love with someone who is around you, that you will probably not marry a 70 year old tibetan woman, unless that is your crowd, and you happen to have been born and raised in tibet.

Obviously, you will probably "hook up" with the ladies from your town, in your state, whose paths you happen to cross.

So first, let's try to increase the number of women with whom you interact socially.

Second, we'll need to find a method for "threshing out the chaff," avoiding the women you probably aren't interested in. For instance, if you are a strident Democrat, then there's no point in hanging out at republican rallies, (unless you plan to do a standout routine.)

But first things first. how to cross paths with women.

Basically, this will boil down to doing stuff you wouldn't otherwise do.
You begin by figuring out where the frauelines spend their times, and you go there.

For instance, most women shop at the grocery. True, they don't shop for men there. But then, we want to catch them off guard, rather than vying for their attention in a meet market (bar) where only the richest and best looking will go home with a new friend.

So, ask yourself, what kind of women do you like? and where do they hang out?

When I was a freshman in college, my answer was easy. "I like real live women." And I figured the closest concentration was the girl's dorm. While the other guys were doing the whole panty-raid angle, I was getting invited into the girls' dorm. See, they had an overflow, so they took one dorm, and put guys on the first floor, and girls in the higher floors. Only, there was one vacant room on the second floor. They moved two MALES ONTO THE 2nd FLOOR, TO FILL THE ROOM. Two shmoes, at that. I mean, a couple of engineering students.

Guess who my two best friends instantly became: engineering students!
Now, how hard was that. And before the first month of school, every girl on the second floor knew my friends. And more importantly, they knew me!

There's just one example.

Find a niche, a room, an activity, where you'll be one of the only males. Now, I'm not saying you should do something you consider "gay," like ballroom dancing.

But what about going to the symphony? Lots of girls there. More than guys. And lot's of them are clean and well-educated, too.

Oops, boss is calling.

Stay tuned for lesson II.

What if I have a friend who I like, alot. We have been friends since 1st grade and do all kinds of things together, but she is just a friend. I don't do well with meeting new people and well, Sandy isn't a demon or anything, I just don't know how she would react if I asked her out on a actual date, as in boyfriend/girlfriend. We went to a Halloween party together, her as the late 50's business man and me as the 18 year old trophy wife, and we had fun, but it was as friends. We go out to eat, or to movies, but as friends... I don't know what I'm trying to say, just thinking about asking her on a real date fuddles my mind up, but well, Mr. Romance, you know what I am trying to ask? I sure don't.

Ahh....the infamous cross from friend land to boyfriend land....

One of the most difficult bridges to cross, but if it is done, it can lead to the most rewarding kind of relationship imaginable...

Sounds like you need to assess where her head is at. This is most easily accomplished by mutual friends (if you have them). Thing is, a lot of girls who are in this position may eventually feel romantic towards you, BUT the key is WHEN this shift occurs. You don't want to strike too early and blow it.... It's better to know where he head is on the question of romance...

For example, say you're talking to a mutual friend (especially one of her girlfriends)... "Hey, the other night, I kind of got this vibe that maybe she wants to be more than friends...but I can't be sure. I'm not sure how to react to that. Has she said anything or given you any indications that might shed some light on it?" If the response is no...you can always play it off as maybe the mood of the movie, setting of the restaurant, etc.

Even if it IS no, you can pretty much bank on this getting back to her, where it can either be a good thing, or you can play it off in much the same way. Either way, it plants the seed without really impacting the friendship.

basically, you must weigh the cost of never knowing what it would be like to date her, versus hacking her off permanently, and losing a friend.

Not knowing you (or her), my advice is "don't do it."

She has you in her world-view as a friend. Especially as a childhood friend. That would be like her brother or cousin asking her out.

Here is my suggestion. (bwa-hah-hah-ha) *cue organ music*

Go out of your way to be "friends" with her. Don't lie or decieve her in any way. Just make a point of spending time with her. If you are comfy enough being honest with her. I'd tell her about that "I have some social engagements (like perhaps the party), and I don't have a girlfriend. So would you please, as a friend, accompany me on these social outings, so that I don't look like a dweeb who cannot get a girl?"

My guess is she will be flattered, or at worst, indifferent. If she says yes, then arrange some gatherings, family events, church, whatever (symphony is good), and take her. Always be a gentleman. Never hit on her.

See, unless she starts something, you'd be best to forget about her. But I'm guessing that if you are attracted to her, then I bet she has hot friends, too.

Hang around with her so you can meet her hot friends.

Do not use her. Do not disrespect her. But go with her to her social events. And hangout with her friends, sisters, cousins, whatever.

Now, here comes the finesse:

The one thing you are allowed to do, is point out whenever a man is looking at her body. Always point out when a man is leering at her, smiling at her or whatever. One of the most primitive emotions is to appreciate when the opposite sex is competing for us. So, pointing out that others find her attractive implies that you do, too.

ONCE YOU HAVE ACCOMLISHED THIS, you may tell her, if it is not lying, that you notice more women look at you when you are with her. That you seem to be more attractive when you are sitting with her. She will take this as a compliment, trust me.

If you will ever click with her, it will be now. If she will ever consider you sexually, it will be now.

DO NOT tell her that you've wanted her since you were a little kid. Or that you've discovered these feelings for her, or that you think about her when you shower.

WAIT until she expresses that she feels sexy when she's with you. IF she never says something at this point, then DO NOT PROCEED because you will loose her as a friend.

however, if she says something sweet . . .


DON'T say anythng stupid. Anything is stupid, right now.

Kiss her. softly.



[edit on 3-11-2005 by dr_strangecraft]

Ok... Well IDK, would rather have her as a friend then lose her because I made her mad. Thanks for the advice from both of you.

Although... Reading your advice reminded me of something that happened a couple weeks ago. We were at the mall, me basically carrying the things she was buying, and saw a guy who had to be in his 40's looking at Sandy's rear end, so I asked him "Like what you see?" He acted like he got his hand caught in the cookie jar. Don't think Sandy heard or she probably would have stomped on my foot.

[edit on 3-11-2005 by Full Metal]

Dear Dr Romance

This is a great idea for a thread! I applaud your efforts and your ability to share your advice with others who sorely need it. Also, it may help stop the 'Women are only after my money' or the 'She must be ugly if she doesn't want me for my cash' threads.

You have voted dr_strangecraft for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have two more votes this month.

I think your comments on the seduction of 'Frau Doctor' should illustrate to others, that women tend to look for men who are smart, funny, confident and who know how to express themselves in a thoughtful manner without resorting to calling us opportunistic gold-diggers.

Since there is no icon for bling, here is a dancing banana for you.

Do more women notice you when you are in the company of your friend?

By all means, if it is the case, point it out to her. Even if you two remain platonic friends, you can probably learn from her insight into what drives women.

And, always point out to a women when some male is checking her out. Even if it's your sister or whatever. Watch and see how she responds to the information.

Does she freak out, and go "ew, gross!" or just blush in shame, or ask you to go get the old man's phone number? Learning to read any woman's reaction will help you when your life depends on it; that is, when YOU are trying to figure out whether some girl likes you.

One of the saddest factors of our dorky little society is that men are ashamed if they have too many female friends. For my part, I suspect that the guys griping about "gold-diggers" don't have any female friends . . . probably not too many male friends, either.

All of this just reinforces

Lesson I

In order to attract females, you need at least one sincere friendship with an attractive female.

Female friends are essential:
- free grooming advice.
- they are friends with girls, some of whom will be of interest to you
- help choosing appropriate gifts. You will need this help for holidays like Christmas, Valentine's Day, Birthdays, and Anniversaries. (see lesson IX)
- Giving you advice on love notes, flowers, choice of interesting date locales, etc.
- Making you look "safe." This is probably the second most important factor. Other women will trust you, because axe-murderers don't have female friends. Ergo, you must not be an axe-murderer.
- Making you look "sought after." No woman watching the two of you will know that this is not your lover. Which is just fine. because women want what other women have. For all I know, it is just as true of men. But we're not worrying about that here.

Sure, a newcomer will figure out fairly quickly that you and your "female friend" are not romantically linked. But by that time though, you should be able to work your magic on her.

IDK, Sandy usually stomps on my foot if she thinks I am "goggling"(Her words, not mine) women. She does it to all of us(her male friends) so it isn't just me. Although problem with part of your advice, she has one female friend, and it is my male friend's little sister. She doesn't "like" other girls since she says they get to wrapped up in clothes and makeup when there is so much more out there.

Kind of a controller, isn't she?

Hmmmm. maybe there's more to that than meets the eye.

Personally, if I wanna look, I'll look. Unless she's wearing my varsity jacket (or carrying my pocket protector, or whatever), she's got no say in what I look at.

But, maybe that's just me.

I'm sure she's fun. But if you went everywhere with Sandy, you'll never meet other women. And that's not the goal of this thread. I understand she'd your friend and all, but it sounds like she's kind of got a harem of men.

not cool.

Guess you could call it that, harem, isn't that a whore house in like Arabic? I also was talking to her at school and tried to get some info about why she hardly ever dates, and she said "WHo needs boyfriends when I have you guys?"

Maybe you right, not cool, but she still my friend.

Edit: When is Lesson II? Lol, got you distracted with my problems.

[edit on 3-11-2005 by Full Metal]

In some ways, maybe several, she sounds like "one of the guys."

But you know, it's also about the definition of "friend."

My friends don't control me, and I don't try to control them. I definitely register it when I think they are out of line in some way. But I don't tell them how to behave. Or who they can be friends with.

Not that there's anything wrong with that.

But in that case, you still need to find the kind of female friend I'm describing. One who is a genuine friend, who wants you to be happy, and won't mind helping you find the right girl for you. In exchange, she'll probably want your help meeting men.

Real friends want you to be happy, and "hooked up" with a person you love.

Do you spend most of your time with "sandy and her guys?" If so, it is probably keeping you from meeting other women.

.

Well, we usually do stuff together, go to Mike's or the Mall or wherever as a group. I tried going to the mall or the local bowling alley on my own, ever hear the term "To close for comfort?" That was darn uncomfortable. I don't do well around new people/ones I don't know. Also, Mike has a g/f and Sandy doesn't do anything bad about it, so it's not like she controls us to worship her, she isn't Quinn Morgendorffer.(From Daria she had 3 guys worship her, did whatever she told them to) It's just she doesn't think we should "goggle" girls in general, even if it is just Alex or Jass looking at a girl when at Milke's or the mall or wherever.

Also, kind of making Sandy look bad, could you U2U me? even though she doesn't come here don't want to make her look bad behind her back.

[edit on 3-11-2005 by Full Metal]

I will u2u if you want me too.

But let me say in public, I don't know this person. just talking about one aspect of the relationship as told to me, and reaching some conclusions for myself.

But only YOU can have any say about the relationship you have with that person. I have no doubt that she is an honest friend. Sorry if it sounded judging, what I wrote. not meant towards her as a person, just saying some aspects of the relationship would be unacceptable to me.

You have to decide for yourself how you will be treated. I WAS in an unhealthy relationship for years. Part of my getting free was to realize that I am not responsible for other people's insides, and they are not responsible for mine.

You train people how to treat you.

That said, it sounds to this outsider like you ought to look elsewhere for romance.

Please pull through, and pay at the next window.

Well, thanks for the advice, but like I said, I don't do well with new people. I get very uncomfortable, but feel ok around Sandy, but that could be why I feel like this. It's like having 1 choice and calling it a choice. Maybe, IDK, brain fuddled again since getting hungry. Mmmm, cooking time.

More about meeting women.


Part A.

I think a lot of guys suffer from not meeting enough women.

If you don't have a g/f, you should be meeting someone new at least once a week. Otherwise, you'll never get anywhere. Schedule time for it. Your friends will not respect this time, and so you'll have to insist on it. They will want you to 'hang out' with them, in other words entertain them. But leave your circle of friends occaisionally and spend some time in a different clique.

Frau_Dr suggested over dinner that young men ought to look at singles ministries at their local churches. She says her girl friends all complain that they go to these things, and there's nothing but women there. Did you hear that? Nothing but women as far as the eye can see, and all of them looking for a relationship. She said that the girls who go there are not prudes by any measure, they just figure that there should be clean-cut-looking guys at those deals. She didn't say what to do if you're not religious. Anyone have a suggestion for secular settings like that???

I had a 'female friend' in college who was really a wonderful person, but a bit homely. I told her to come to my chess club. Guess what: Nearly a hundred guys (including some from the football team), and one girl. And man, did she ever suck at chess. But I basically never saw her again after our freshman year. When I did, she always hadda man. So learn from her, and find an event that has a high female quotient, and head out.

I used to go to the library. Museums were good, too (and cheap). My roomate, the one with the hot girlfriend, always used to say the symphony was a great place to meet girls. Never worked for me, but he was a lot bolder than I was.

Anyway, pick someplace where women are, and thinking about romance, or at least liesure time. Have you noticed how many bookstores have cafes in them now??? That's because so many people hook up in there. Don't spend time looking at porn; go instead to the language or travel aisle.


Part B: Striking up a conversation.

Force yourself to talk to a new woman at least once a week. Find something humorous and non-threatening to talk about. The best topics are ones that refer to something you both have in common, like waiting in line at the gym for a treadmill. Just an example. Waiting for the elevator.

Some girl hit on me about a week ago when I was in the travel section of the bookstore, looking at stuff on Eastern Europe. She kind of moved into my space, and then mentioned that I was looking at a foreign phrase-book. She asked me if I had ever been to the country, and I said yes. She was going there for the first time at Christmas, to meet relatives from behind the iron curtain. Could I please give her some advice on which books was best, how to act in a foreign country, etc. I had to say " well, my wife always says . . ." after a few minutes she took the hint.

You can do what she did, too.

Also, if a woman talks to you when she doesn't need absolutely need to, SHE'S FLIRTING WITH YOU! FLIRT BACK!!!!

There are basically three levels of conversation (write this down, it'll be on the test):

1 - Talking about stuff.
This is talking about things, like Poland, or how to make crepes, or why the elevator is slow. It is the most neutral conversation two primates can have. Start here.

2 - Talking about opinions.
Start slow, and voice an opinion that is non-threatening, and you won't be offended if she disagrees: "I like spaghetti over linguini better than I do over angel-hair pasta." Yes, that's really inane. But if she likes you, she'll act like you just gave her a stock tip. Or else she'll correct you and say the opposite, like she was giving YOU a hot stock tip. "Hee hee. You're wrong. Vermicelli is better than both."

3 - Talking about you or me.
This is where it gets delicate. If you lose her, it will be in phase 3. You reveal something about yourself, or ask about her. "I wanted to study linguistics, but I went to a small high school." Or something a bit more personal. But not too personal: "the way the sunlight falls on your hair reminds me of the fields of wheat back on the farm where I grew up." That's TOO personal, in the first meet!

Basically, you will screw up more of these than you will get right. So plan to do a lot of talking with different women. You may have to talk to 10 or 20 women before you get well into stage 3 with one of them. But so what? What else are you doing tonight, besides going home alone?

After you've done well in level 3, it is time to take it into the next level. Write this down:

The next level is to succeed in holding onto the contact, but switching locations.

Now, ultimately, you're thinking about a BIG location switch. Like her place. But don't get carried away.

Most public spaces have several "micro-environments" invite her to switch locations in a small, non-threatening way.

examples:
- "would you like to sit down, there's a bench over there . . ."

- "Are you hungry? Let's go get some fries at the food court"

- "This party is too loud. You want to go get a cup of coffee?"


The further the switch of locations, the greater the risk of ending the conversation, but the more it means if she says "OK."

Basically, there is something subtly important about moving out of the location where you met. It says this relationship, however inconsequential, is more than a momentary conversation.

And the final phase to building a new friendship: Agreeing about the future

from giving her your number, to asking her to asking her to marry you, every real relationship has some commitment to the future, even if it's just an understanding that we attend the same class: "see you Friday," etc. So, the ideal end to a conversation is an agreement to meet again.

These days, women need to protect their privacy. So don't ask for info. Offer them yours. Back in the 90's, we all carried pagers, and if you decided she was a nutjob, you could just ignore her page. Maybe exchange emails or something. A hotmail account is good for this.

[as an aside, if you work for an employer who will let you make business cards in your name (or better, who will pay for them) by all means, use those. Seriously. Most women will like that they know where you work, even if it is running the copier down at KopyMart. It says that you have nothing to hide. Where you work is less important than being unashamed of it, and open to letting her into your life a little.]

Personally, I believe it is best to set a non-threatening appointment. NOT A DATE. Don't call it a date. Don't think of it as a date. And don't make an evening appointment. Make it for a different time of day than when the original meeting took place. In other words, a switch of time AND location. I used to go for "Brunch at (-) Deli on Sunday: they have the best eggs benedict." Or coffee on tuesday before class. If she says "are you asking me on a date?" You're answer is always "of course not." Of course not.

Tune in next time for Lesson III: asking for a date.

Female friends are essential

I'll DEFINITELY second this one.

I was always the friend they cried on, and I learned a LOT that way....

As for the church singles socials....that is probably THE best new way to hook up. Even if you aren't that religious. Think about it... What gal doesn't want to tell her parents "I met him at church" over "I met him at a bar"....????

She didn't say what to do if you're not religious. Anyone have a suggestion for secular settings like that???

unitarian churches my friend....more like self-help than fire and brimstone....and just avoid the topic of religion and remember why you're there! Find OTHER topics to discuss....

None of this stuff is set in stone. If someone has comments or critiques, by all means, post them.

When it comes down to it, your presentation when you "pop the question" is pretty critical. Here are some rules of thumb I've come up with, based on my own painful experiences, input from friends, and from my wife.

Ask youself a couple of questions before you ask her out:

1. Does she expect this from you? (if you catch her off guard, she'll say no.)
2. Does she trust you? Does she have a reason to?
3. Do you think she is interested in you?

Unless you can say yes to these, back up and "meet her" again for a "non-date," until you are confident that you have at least a fighting chance.

1. Ask for a date at least 2 days in advance.
If you ask for a same day or next day meet, you increase the chances of getting a "no," in part because she may have already made plans. On a deeper level, a short-notice date implies that you expect her to be available on short notice.

Suppose you say to her, "Look I've got two tickets to the Autobahn concert tonight. Wanna go with me?" If she says yes, you don't know whether she likes you, or if she just wants to get to the show and will go with anyone to get there. For her part, she has got to suspect you a bit, too. Why are you asking at the last minute? Did you "first choice for the date" reject you, and she is the runner up?

Show her some respect, and ask with enough advance notice that she can plan for the date and get ready however she needs to.

2. When asking for the date, make a specific offer.
In love, as in business, it is always easier to reject a vague offer. The worst possible way to ask for a date is the way most young men do it today; they are trying to be nonchalant, but comes off sounding like they are unsure of their own desires:

Hey . . . would ya . . . ever wanna . . . go out with me . . . . sometime?

See, that's horrible. If she says no to this request, she's saying "NO!" to you forever. You give her a specific request like this:

I really enjoyed our conversation about classical music the other day. Did you know that there's a quartet of musicians from the symphony that will perform a benefit concert in the park on Sunday? It will go until 5 p.m. I've got tickets, and I would like to take you to the performance. Would you like to go?

Now, that's a bit much. But it illustrates a couple of key points:

-You have spent some time planning a date around her interests.

-She knows exactly where you plan to take her, and for how long.

-She can say no, without ending the friendship.

3. Do not apply pressure
If she says she wants to think about it, or says "no" outright, then accept it and move on. Do not beg, urge, or wheedle. Show her the respect of letting it go if she isn't interested.

4. If she says declines the date, accept it gracefully, but listen carefully.
This is one of those moments when you are able to refine your technique. If she doesn't volunteer her reasons for declining, fine. But if she does, pay attention. If she says she has to attend her uncle's birthday party, it may be the truth. If she seems uncomfortable with you, or like she didn't expect to be asked, then you need to work on that part of your technique.

5. Pick a date that optimizes the time you can spend interacting with her
A movie is a really poor choice for this. You will sit in the dark, where you are not supposed to talk for 2 hours. Much better is an art show, tickets to a museum, an auction, or some activity where skill isn't critical. This is why miniature golf is so popular. Especially if you are confident and funny.

When I lived in Austin, there was a steak place called " U R Cooks." One of the happier dates I've had was taking a girl there, and cooking steaks for both of us. You picked your steaks from the fridge, with a butcher who explained the cuts of meat. Each couple had a brick barbecue pit, ready to cook, and you seasoned it yourself, etc. She had never grilled a steak before in her life. Me, I grew up grilling steaks alongside dad in the back yard, but at the time I lived in an apartment where I had no grill. It was a near-perfect evening. We both laughed so much that our faces hurt. She just kept hugging on me, laughing at her lack of skill and my "expertise" in the kitchen. (I knew from a prior conversation that she liked steak, but was unschooled about how to cook one.)

See, that was a good experience, because we got to know each other over a non-critical activity that we could laugh at. Picking a good date is kind of like writing the plot for a sitcom. Choose something that she will be good at, or that you will be good at (and she will be interested in), or else something that neither of you knows the first thing about.

Pick something you've always wondered about but never tried. If niether of you has ever been rock-climbing (but are fit), then an afternoon at a training course might work. Or the filming of a local TV show. Maybe a croquet tournament or a trip to the carnival.

Best are events where the two of you can talk about your respective tastes and opinions, and learn about each other in a neutral or light-hearted environment. A wine tasting (you don't get drunk, you spit it out if you want), or a fashion or painting show. If she is an art conniseur, ask for a tour of the local museum.

Be careful about picking stuff YOU are interested in, but she may not be. Also, don't take her to YOUR favorite bar, restaurant, etc. Take her someplace she has never been before, but neither have you.

6. A date should last 4 hours, max. Hopefully, with an option to end it sooner.
One of the things I used to do was pick an event (say, a concert), with coffee afterward. That gave me a chance to talk about the event with the girl. If the evening wasn't going well, I'd have an alternate restaurant planned, one with faster service. Or maybe none at all if the date went REALLY bad. On the other hand, if we hit it off, we could sit and talk over coffee for an hour or more.

7. The date should end with both of you wanting "more."
Don't drag it out until your urge to be together is sated. Plan it so that the evening should end on a positive, upbeat note.

8. Don't try to kiss her "good-night" on the first date. If she is pressing, give her a peck on the cheek.
That's my style anyway. The one time I broke this rule was with the girl I eventually married. And I asked permission before I kissed her.

9. Don't press her for a commitment to another date.
Let the evening stand on its own. Don't say "this was fun, can we do it again next week." if she expresses such a sentiment, wanting to make plans for the next meet or date, say simply, "It's been fun, hasn't it. Can I call you tomorrow?"

10. Call the NEXT DAY. and do a telephone debriefing.
The purpose of this phone call is to thank her for the date. Even if it was a total effing wreck, find something nice to say about it; just don't lie. Say something you liked, tell her that you hoped she had a nice time (or is recovering nicely, whatever), and wish her a nice day.

Generally, I would not plan on setting up the next date. If she asked me if I wanted to go out again, I'd probably say yes (if true), and then tell her I'd call her in later in the week with a definite plan.

If you get shunted to voicemail, I'd probably say "I'm just calling to see how you're doing. I had a nice time last night, and just wanted to thank you for the evening. Talk to you later." I'd give it one more try, and if I got voicemail again, I'd feel like, hey. I tried, right?


By that point, I think a young man ought to be developing his own style and sense of what works for him. And wouldn't need to read crap like this written by pontificating, self-satisfied old barnacles like me anymore.

I figure I probably erred by only asking girls out when I was pretty darn shure they'd say yes. If I was doing it over again, I'd have asked a lot more women, even if the odds were long that they'd go out with me.

I probably got a "yes" 40-50% of the time; I probably should have been asking out twice as many women. I figure it wouldn't have changed by odds much; I just would have gotten an active social life a lot faster.

Figure that if you want to get women, more than the men around you, you will have to apply yourself more than the rest of them do. You'll have to spend time studying women, learning their likes and dislikes, and learning to meet those desires.

Just like with any endeavor, the people who commit themselves to excellence will meet their goals consistently.

Lucky you.

This is what I will become. Now they hate but soon they'll love.

You probably don't understand this.