Are you good enough to get to Heaven?

I'm taking a poll!
How many people believe that to get into Heaven, you have to be a good person?

Salvation can only be found through Christ.

Originally posted by just me 2
I'm taking a poll!
How many people believe that to get into Heaven, you have to be a good person?

Salvation is found in Jesus Christ. Good deeds don't cut it. A person's sin must be completely removed, that happens through accepting Christ for the forgiveness of sins.

Originally posted by kinglizard
Salvation can only be only found through Christ.

Question KL, can you still find Christ while not going to church and worshipping him?

I think I'm going to go to Heaven because I know I'm a good person (some mods would disagree I'm sure ). I haven't stepped foot in a church or read the Bible in forever.

What say you?

Peace

[edit on 2-11-2005 by Dr Love]

"good" is such a broad term....

and by which religion? ours? someone else's?

A nutjob whacko who blows up a dozen innocent people with a bomb believes he'll go to heaven and get 40 virgins, and thinks he's "good enough" to go to heaven....???

I consider myself to be a pretty decent fellow, but if the Christians are right, then I'm going straight to hell...

Then again, I've never been all into worshipping someone for eternity, all that white just seems boring (and you just know those robes likely chaff something awful...), and I'm not too keen on playing a harp....

Salvation is found in Jesus Christ. Good deeds don't cut it. A person's sin must be completely removed, that happens through accepting Christ for the forgiveness of sins.

Ooohhh....my favorite...

So, given the above, let's see how it works in the real world.

Man A: lives in rural China. Never heard one word about Jesus. Lives a good life, is charitable, lives like a saint.

Man B: hacked up his whole family with an axe...but after years in prison, accepts Jesus as his savior, and then gets fried.

According to the quoted belief above...Man B goes to heaven, while Man A burns in hell. Personally, seems like better company in hell....

[edit on 2-11-2005 by Gazrok]

Originally posted by kinglizard
Salvation can only be found through Christ.

Originally posted by dbrandt
Salvation is found in Jesus Christ.

Presently being posted by junglejake
Salvation can only come through Jesus Christ.

Hey, I agree with them!

EDIT: As to this:

Originally posted by Dr Love
Question KL, can you still find Christ while not going to church and worshipping him?

I think I'm going to go to Heaven because I know I'm a good person (some mods would disagree I'm sure

). I haven't stepped foot in a church or read the Bible in forever.

What say you?

Peace

[edit on 2-11-2005 by Dr Love]

The initial post on this thread expresses what I think in that regard.

[edit on 11-2-2005 by junglejake]

So, any answers to my scenario? Do you think your "accept Jesus or go to hell" blanket idea is good and just? Do you think this would be the action of a kind and loving diety?

I am just so tired of this arguement. It is not how good you are, it is not how bad you are. It is what you have learned in each life you live through the ages. If you are bad you do not move very far along the path to ascending to the next plane. We all have live where are bad, then we have lives where we are good. Some are in between. We live so God the devine creator of the universe can experience all life though us, and so our souls can learn and experience every life.

God gave us reasoning and choice, there is no way God would send a human soul to hell forever for not playing ball a certain way. If you believe in God how in the world did you get talked into believing ho would send his children to hell for a belief? Oh I forgot. That same God cursed man for original sin.

The cursed typo sin!! Darn looks like I am going to hell!

[edit on 2-11-2005 by LoneGunMan]

Well, I don't really believe Christ is the only answer to get there IF you believe in a place in the afterlife.

There are many, many beliefs and many forms of worship. Other "pagan" religions were only labeled as bad or evil by the Chuch who wanted to convert everyone (that sure does wonders for the donation coffers).

What about the old-school God of smiting your enemies with a jawbone? Can I worship old-school style (he IS still God after all) and smite a few bad guys? Technically I could still get to Heaven, right?

Since so many people are saying it..."only through Christ", I am going to have to disagree. That just seems like a very narrow view based on centuries-old church propaganda "my religion good, yours is evil" type stuff.

Native Americans (Indians in my day and I'm an adopted tribal member) had a totally different worship system. Are you saying that due to geographical location and not being able to learn about Christ...they are all just screwed?

Seems a bit limiting...

Originally posted by ZeddicusZulZorander

Native Americans (Indians in my day and I'm an adopted tribal member) had a totally different worship system. Are you saying that due to geographical location and not being able to learn about Christ...they are all just screwed?

Seems a bit limiting...

Thats an interesting way of putting it, one I have always wondered about.

I dont buy into the heaven / hell outlook, I believe in an afterlife, but I have no clue what it is.

Originally posted by Dulcimer
Thats an interesting way of putting it, one I have always wondered about.

Makes you wonder, right?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sorry all you who were too far away to know about Christ, or those of you who's parents/elders didn't teach you about Christ.

When someone gets to Heaven and they look up your member profile it will say...

Zedd
[color=#FF0000]Banned Heathen

Sucks to be you, but you didn't pay strict attention to the Heaven T&C's.

Thanks,
GOD

Will God Condemn People Who Have Never Even Heard About Jesus?

A way of answering your question might be to answer the following: "How were people saved prior to Christ's crucifixion and resurrection?" People then were saved by responding positively to God's revelation. In other words, people are held accountable for what they know. How much light has a person received from God? Whatever that is, that is what they're accountable for. The same would be true for people today who have never heard of Jesus.

If someone lived in China prior to Christ's death and resurrection, how could they be expected to believe in Jesus' death and resurrection for the forgiveness of their sins? Obviously, they could not believe in something they had never heard. In fact, that's what the Bible tells us: "How shall they believe in Him whom they have not heard?" (Romans 10:14)

God doesn't expect people to respond to something they've never heard. But He does hold us accountable for what we HAVE heard. This idea is expressed by the following passage: "sin is not taken into account when there is no law" (Romans 5:13). If a person cannot respond to the good news of Jesus dying on their behalf (because they haven't heard that good news), what are they accountable to respond to?...

[edit on 2-11-2005 by kinglizard]

God doesn't expect people to respond to something they've never heard. But He does hold us accountable for what we HAVE heard. This idea is expressed by the following passage: "sin is not taken into account when there is no law" (Romans 5:13). If a person cannot respond to the good news of Jesus dying on their behalf (because they haven't heard that good news), what are they accountable to respond to?...

Convenient...but shoehorning.... Lets say Man A has heard of God, but was raised a Buddhist since birth. Still the same pious man, still the same great guy...and yet by such a limited outlook, he'd be damned... Sorry, but not by any god worthy of my consideration...

Hence the problem with most religions and the concept of "heaven"... Most religions insist on theirs, and (the key point here) ONLY their way being "right"...and thus entitling them (and ONLY them) to a "heaven"...

The real deal is....IF the Christians are right, then it means that God has already damned the majority of the world's population to hell, regardless of how they lived their lives...(as most in the world are NOT Christians...) That's a pretty bold move to make as a diety, just because they didn't appeal to your vanity by worshipping you... To believe one's god could really do this....is perhaps doing him/her a great disservice....no?

Gazrok you took my thoughts and put them into a very well written post! I was thinking the same thing, putting it together in my head so I could attempt to put it into words, hit refresh and boom! You beat me to it! lol

Originally posted by kinglizard
Salvation can only be found through Christ.

Is hitler in heaven? Or better, Judas?

And as far as your other response on not hearing of him, then jesus isn't the only way to salvation, no?

Also, what is so different about hearing about him and not accepting it and never hearing about it?


Also, how much is sufficient? If I've only ever heard that there was a guy who said there was one god and he was his son and that some people killed him, but that acoording to his groupies he came back to life and flew into heaven, is that now sufficient to require that I accept christ, in our hypothetical situation? Do you have to have read at least one full gospel? What about old testament stuff? Does our hypothetical chinaman get consideration for never having heard of 'god' in the first place? What if I've only ever heard about god from unscrupulous people, which would reasonably lead me to beleive that its as disreputable as they are, considering that we're saying getting the story in the first place is whats key?

Also, what 'makes' a person beleive? Is it a decision that the person makes? But why does man have this capacity, to tell the difference between the jesus mythos and say any other mythos? Man's a rational animal no? But there is nothing rational about faith no? So must not faith come from the beyond anyway, and must that not mean that faith comes from god? Or is it a more or less random decision, or a learned position (considering that most people have the faith of their parents, and surely no one's ever talked about jesus without having heard about him from someone else)? If the faith comes from god, then what do people have to do with it and why does it make a difference in terms of their salvation?

And does the faith always get put into people as strongly? Or are some people given very very strong faith? What if a strong willed person is given only a little faith from god, surely god would know that it wouldn't work no?

Originally posted by Gazrok
Convenient...but shoehorning....

Lets say Man A has heard of God, but was raised a Buddhist since birth. Still the same pious man, still the same great guy...and yet by such a limited outlook, he'd be damned... Sorry, but not by any god worthy of my consideration...

The real deal is....IF the Christians are right, then it means that God has already damned the majority of the world's population to hell

Yes man A ignored the word of God and will pay accordingly as he turned his back on God.

It's your choice to believe in his word, or to ignore it, he forces nobody to do anything. Your decisions in life are your own therefor you are the one that is held responsible for those decisions.

Yes there are laws...take a look at mans law. Lets say a Man commits a murder in today's society. He's caught and sent to jail. This man knew that killing someone was against the law but he decided to do it anyway. Who is to blame for his situation? Wasn't it he that sent himself to jail? Wasn't it his decision to kill?

So you see it isn't God that condemns anyone, it's man and the decisions he makes.

Nygdan, you have a lot of questions unfortunately for me and you I don't have all the answers but thanks for thinking I did.

I hope you are able to find the answers you seek, keep searching friend.

Originally posted by kinglizard
God doesn't expect people to respond to something they've never heard. But He does hold us accountable for what we HAVE heard. This idea is expressed by the following passage: "sin is not taken into account when there is no law" (Romans 5:13). If a person cannot respond to the good news of Jesus dying on their behalf (because they haven't heard that good news), what are they accountable to respond to?...

Good find KL, but still it has some inherent problems.

I mean I heard about God so I am out because I say, coveted a neighbor's wife. I go to the warm place. Meanwhile in heaven looking down are thousands of people that might have killed people and more. They managed to get saved due to a technicality because they didn't hear about God at the time?

Not to mention there would be hundreds of crusading knights who killed men, women and children simply because they had a different belief system.

Now that just sounds crazy.

Yeah Bud I don't know Zedd. You aren't condemned to hell because you sinned by "coveting your neighbor's wife", I mean we all sin well after we find and accept Christ as our savior, "We all fall short of the glory of God - Romans 3:23 ". I don't think anyone can say they don't sin...even on a daily basis because we are human.

Certainly it's your responsibility to try to follow the teachings of Jesus and try to live your life accordingly, we must ask forgiveness when we fall short and then try again. I believe this is the spirit in which a Christian lives his life.

Originally posted by kinglizard
Yes man A ignored the word of God and will pay accordingly as he turned his back on God.

Wait, wait... Buddhism is a religion of about 300 million people that started before Jesus was around. The whole goal of Buddhism is to lead a moral life, be mindful and aware of thoughts and actions, and develop wisdom and understanding.

Are you saying God would damn someone like that simply because he heard of God but didn't follow him? That seem pretty strong...not to mention then God seems a bit whimsical at times.

Originally posted by kinglizard
It's your choice to believe in his word, or to ignore it, he forces nobody to do anything. Your decisions in life are your own therefor you are the one that is held responsible for those decisions.

Yes there are laws...take a look at mans law. Lets say a Man commits a murder in today's society. He's caught and sent to jail. This man knew that killing someone was against the law but he decided to do it anyway. Who is to blame for his situation? Wasn't it he that sent himself to jail? Wasn't it his decision to kill?

So you see it isn't God that condemns anyone, it's man and the decisions he makes.

That would be man's laws though right and not God's laws? What about the old-school God's I mentioned above and the eye-for-an-eye stuff? What if I choose to follow that method? Someone kills a person, I kill them. They steal? I cut off a hand. I can still be saved then it seems.

Or this for example...
What if I totally follow God's rules and I never break a single one of the 10 commandments. I fondle kids as a hobby, but I still follow all the other rules. I mean people got married hundreds of years ago at very, very young ages. Man has set the limit of being an adult but I don't think God ever has. By your logic, I am still saved right?

See the point? Scary stuff. All rapists, murderers, child-molesters go to Heaven under technicalities. They would be laughing at God and being thankful they could grab Johnnie Cochran if needed. "If the sin don't fit, you must acquit."