U.S. stopped Israeli raid to seize Arafat

Perhaps this is a good sign. Quoted by Jakomo...."The fact is, if the Israelis pulled out of all the Occupied Territories and stopped building illegal settlements, it would be the biggest move towards peace in the Middle East that has ever happened. Jews agree with it, Arabs agree with it."

Just found this:
"US Acts on Israeli Settlements"
Link:
www4.arabnews.com...
*note: slow loading*
Excerpt:
" OCCUPIED JERUSALEM, 17 September 2003 � The United States yesterday said it would penalize Israel for constructing settlements in Palestinian areas as the Jewish state rejected a fresh Palestinian appeal for cease-fire.

The State Department said Washington would deduct the amount Israel had spent on constructing and supporting Jewish settlements in Palestinian areas from promised loan guarantees.

The deductions � the amount of which has not yet been determined � will be made in accordance with US law from a first tranche of $1.6 billion in loan guarantees that the department expects to announce this week, it said.

State Department deputy spokesman Adam Ereli told reporters in Washington: �The precise amount is still being determined but will be an estimate based on a range of Israeli government expenses associated with the settlement activity.�....


Perhpas this is a good sign indeed....lets hope.

regards
seekerof

I can see it now...

Oh, That settlement only cost us $1 to build. It was already there, we just took it.
This is really just a bit of posturing by the Bush admin. I don't see it making a bit of difference in the every day activities of either side.
This whole situation is going nowhere fast and I don't expect to really see any progress until someone truly put's a foot down in the middle of it all and says "ENOUGH!!!!". Even that is probably doomed to failure since the religious rift is never going to go away.
The divide is too deep and wide at this point to keep pussyfooting around like everyone has been since the 40's. It, unfortunately, looks like an all out war is the only thing that will settle this and the result is bound to be genocide, one way or another.

Originally posted by Jakomo
Haha, thanks for the laugh. What you "know" is the pro-Israeli, anti-Palestinian doody you constantly parrot. They're not your own ideas, they're repeated.

That sounds like you, only in reverse.

Originally posted by JakomoI live in Montreal, we have a HUGE Jewish population and an equally huge Arab-Muslim one. Every single week I hear someone with good ideas on either side, and I learn more...

You spend little time on these boards talking about ideas, you talk about JUSTIFICATIONS.

Ditto with you.

Originally posted by Jakomo
The fact is, if the Israelis pulled out of all the Occupied Territories and stopped building illegal settlements, it would be the biggest move towards peace in the Middle East that has ever happened. Jews agree with it, Arabs agree with it.

And if the Palestinian-Arabs dismantled their terrorist organizations, started arresting their own war criminals instead of inviting them to become part of their government, that would be the biggest move towards peace in the Middle East that has ever happened. Jews agree with it, Arabs say they agree with it, yet it never happens.

Originally posted by JakomoAnd yet, by saying this, some would cry "Anti-Semite"!

What nonsense is this? How many times have you been called �anti-Semite� in these conversations?

Originally posted by Jakomo
And THOSE are the people who know the LEAST. It's all black and white for them, with no gray. Well, live a little longer on this earth and you'll learn that EVERYTHING is gray.

What hypocrisy is this? You repeat historical slanders that have been thoroughly debunked, you repeat propaganda from ElectronicIntifada, and you have the cojones to claim someone else can only see black and white?

In some degrees Fry, I would have to agree with what you are saying, but my interpretations of the article suggest that perhaps the US recognizes that the Israelis need to give back currently held occupied areas that belonged to the Palestinians. Just as Israel and Palestine had agreed upon. No more give here but building a 'settlement' there.

I'm hoping that this is a 'pressure' move by the US on Israel to motivate this. The US has already cut about 1.9 billion off the current funding/aid package to Israel and this may be why.

regards
seekerof

[Edited on 17-9-2003 by Seekerof]

FOund this article to support the "monies" or parts of it that is being denied to Israel for such actions as described above:

"US 'to withhold funds' over Israeli actions"

Link:
news.ft.com.../StoryFT/FullStory&c=StoryFT&cid=1059479841688&p=1012571727102

Excerpt:
"Published: September 15 2003 18:06 | Last Updated: September 16 2003 1:03


The US intends to withhold part of a $9bn loan guarantee package for Israel because of its actions in the occupied Palestinian territories, US officials said on Monday.


US officials refused to say how much would be withheld from the total approved by Congress to help Israel get through its economic crisis. If the amount proved to be significant then the Bush administration, faced with a collapse of the Middle East "road map", would be taking the first concrete action to express its disapproval of certain actions by Israel.

Officials would not specify why the US intended to make the financial deduction. However, the US has criticised Israel's security cabinet for threatening to "remove" Yassir Arafat, its failure to halt expansion of Jewish settlements in the West Bank and Gaza, and the government's construction of a security wall through Palestinian territories."......


regards
seekerof

Mycroft: If Israel pulled out of the Occupied territories and dismantled the Apartheid Wall and stopped building settlements, all these Palestinian terror organizations would have very little to do. It would take away any relevance they have. They'd learn how to play bridge and Kanasta.

For now, they have ample reason to protest (though they should do it in a peaceful manner rather than a violent one). They're being illegally occupied. Once that occupation is over, if they continue on terror attacks, they couldn't blame the Occupation, they'd have to find another cause. Probably some of them would do it to kill Jews. THEN they would be widely and summarily condemned by the international community and could be taken care of with the SANCTION of the rest of the world.

Without the occupation, most of their entire raison d'etre would be gone. Palestinian terror acts happen BECAUSE of the Occupation, take away the Occupation and they would stop, or at the very least slow significantly and eventually peter out. Makes for a safer world for Israelis AND for Palestinians.

Seekerof: (By the way thanks for the kind words) I read the same article about the US withholding aid, I gotta agree with it. It's not as if there are millions of starving Israelis who are dependant on US aid, it's more the military.

I have a feeling this will be widely perceived as a good thing to the Arab world, and frankly, it's about fricking time the US realized that maybe once in a while they should placate them. A little bit of even-handedness goes a long way.

Of course it remains to be seen if it'll be done. For every step forward, the US takes three steps back.

msnbc.com...

"Palestinians said Wednesday that an American veto of a U.N. resolution demanding that Israel not harm or deport Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat showed that Washington had lost its credibility as an honest broker in the Middle East and was turning its back on an international peace plan....

Meanwhile, Prime Minister Ariel Sharon postponed a decision on the path of a security fence through the West Bank, a minister said Wednesday, a day after Washington warned Israel might lose part of $9 billion in loan guarantees over the barrier...."


I believe the word I'm looking for is:

Oi.



jakomo


[Edited on 17-9-2003 by Jakomo]

I found this article late last night on the Oslo Accords and the effects of. I didn't post because I was extremely tired so I sign-off.

Posting it today....First off, here is the "1993 Declaration of Principles (Oslo Accords)"
Link:
www.iap.org...

And the article from last night:

"Oslo Accords Brought 10 Years of Conflict, Analysts Say"
Link:
www.cnsnews.com...\Politics\archive\200309\POL20030916e.html

Excerpt:

"September 16, 2003

Washington (CNSNews.com) - On the 10th anniversary of the Oslo Accords between Israeli and Palestinian negotiators, analysts in Washington said recent history has shown what many saw as the beginning of a peace process to be little more than a Palestinian Trojan Horse designed to undermine the state of Israel.

Ambassador Jeanne Kirkpatrick, the U.S. representative for the U.N. Human Rights Commission and director of foreign and defense policy studies with the American Enterprise Institute, said almost nothing positive has resulted from the Accords, from Israel's point of view.

"While the Palestinians as we know gained a great deal from the Oslo Accords - they gained control of all the major cities in the West Bank, for example, and they gained more status in the international world, a larger voice in the international world - the Israelis gained nothing, just nothing, except more death and destruction," Kirkpatrick said at a lunch discussion at the Hudson Institute.

Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat and then-Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin signed the Accords on Sept. 13, 1993, on the White House lawn in the presence of then-President Bill Clinton."......

Another excerpt from this same article:

"The Palestinians promised in the Oslo Accords a clear recognition of Israel's right to exist in secure borders in accordance with U.N. Resolution 242 and U.N. Resolution 338, as well as the clear renunciation of terror by the Palestinian leadership, Kirkpatrick noted."

"U.N. Security Council Resolution 242"
Link:
www.cnsnews.com...\Politics\archive\200309\POL20030916b.html

"U.N. Security Council Resolution 338"
Link:
www.cnsnews.com...\Politics\archive\200309\POL20030916c.html

And yet another excerpt:

"In addition, Krauthammer called for completion of the controversial security fence between Israel and the Palestinian communities. "Separation today is the only possible answer, and it's also the only way to advance the process," he said."

"Proposed Israeli Security Fence"
Link:
www.mideastweb.org...

And....

"Israeli Security Fence or Apartheid Wall?"
Link:
www.mideastweb.org...

Any comments or thoughts?

regards
seekerof








[Edited on 17-9-2003 by Seekerof]

Well, I mat be a bit 'biased' in this situation but here is another problem to true peace between Israel and Palestine.....Saudi Arabia....just one among many. But here is what Saudi Arabia is doing....:

"NY Times: Saudi donations make up half of Hamas budget"
Jerusalem Post did the article and I have no psw to give out to link:
www.jpost.com.../P/Member/Entry&finish=ContentServer%3Fpagename%3DJPost%2FA%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull%2526cid%3 D1063771636965

Excerpt:
Jerusalem Post ^ | Sept. 17, 2003 | Yaakov Katz


"US and Israeli officials estimate that at least 50 percent of Hamas's current operating budget of about $10 million comes from people in Saudi Arabia, the New York Times reported Wednesday.

The Jerusalem Post cited senior intelligence sources a month ago saying that Saudi Arabia is striving to make the peace process fail and finances close to 60 percent of the annual Hamas budget.

Former Israeli Ambassador to the United Nations Dore Gold told the Jerusalem Post that it is encouraging to see that US intelligence sources verify Israel's claims that Saudi Arabia supports the Hamas terror organization.

"The New York Times demonstrates that all the Saudi denials about funding Hamas don't hold water," Gold said. "In fact, Israel found a handwritten letter by Mahmoud Abbas dated September 2000 that was sent by fax to Prince Salman, full brother of King Fahd and governor of Riyadh in which Abbas complained about Saudi funding to Al-Jamia Al-Islamia, a charity which Abbas explicitly stated 'belongs to Hamas'."

Analysts estimated the Saudi donations as amounting to $5 million a year in cash, making it very difficult for Saudi and American authorities to track.

The report quoted American officials and analysts as saying that after the attacks on Sept. 11, 2001, the Saudi portion of Hamas financing grew as donations from the US, Europe and other Arab countries came to a stop.

According to the newspaper report, senior Hamas chief Khalid Mishal, who was recently added to the US Treasury Department list of terrorist financiers, attended a fund-raising event in Riyadh where he talked at length with Saudi ruler Crown Prince Abdullah.

The Times quoted a summary of the meeting compiled by a Hamas official, according to which Mishal and other Hamas representatives thanked their Saudi hosts for continuing "to send aid to the people through the civilian and popular channels, despite all the American pressures exerted on them."

Saudi officials denied the report, saying that their government's support for Palestinian causes goes directly to the Palestinian Authority. "It's a ridiculous accusation; no Saudi government money goes to Hamas, directly or indirectly," said Adel al-Jubeir, the foreign affairs adviser to Prince Abdullah. "Why on earth would we not stop this kind of funding? Why on earth would our crown prince say we do not want to support Hamas and then allow people to do this under the table?"

regards
seekerof

Originally posted by Jakomo
Mycroft: If Israel pulled out of the Occupied territories and dismantled the Apartheid Wall and stopped building settlements, all these Palestinian terror organizations would have very little to do. It would take away any relevance they have. They'd learn how to play bridge and Kanasta.

What in history makes you believe that? Israel was being attacked from these lands for twenty years before they took them in 1967. What�s changed?

Think on this: The Palestinian Liberation Organization was formed in 1964, three years before Israel took Gaza and the West Bank in the war of 1967. What part of �Palestine� did they want to �liberate� and from whom?

Originally posted by Jakomo
For now, they have ample reason to protest (though they should do it in a peaceful manner rather than a violent one). They're being illegally occupied. Once that occupation is over, if they continue on terror attacks, they couldn't blame the Occupation, they'd have to find another cause. Probably some of them would do it to kill Jews. THEN they would be widely and summarily condemned by the international community and could be taken care of with the SANCTION of the rest of the world.

In the previous paragraph you said these terrorist groups would learn to play Kanasta, yet in this paragraph you�re already assuming that the terrorist attacks would continue?!

I think you�re wrong to assume that Palestinian statehood would suddenly create international condemnation for Palestinian-Arab terror. Where was the international condemnation prior to �67? Where was the condemnation for the terror for the past 36 years?

Originally posted by Jakomo
Without the occupation, most of their entire raison d'etre would be gone. Palestinian terror acts happen BECAUSE of the Occupation, take away the Occupation and they would stop, or at the very least slow significantly and eventually peter out. Makes for a safer world for Israelis AND for Palestinians.

Uh-huh. And you could turn that around and say that without the terror, the entire reason for the occupation is gone. Take away the terror, and the roadblocks would come down, the troops would withdraw, and there is no more reason for the wall. How come you can�t see that side of the argument?

There is a fundamental flaw in suggesting that Israel should give in to terrorist demands as a way of ending terror. There is not a nation on this planet that makes it a policy to negotiate with terrorists, yet somehow we expect it from Israel. This is wrong.

We can expect civilized behavior from the Palestinian-Arabs. To suggest that they are not capable of it would be anti-Arabic racism. History has proven that non-violent protest works. They do not need to give up their struggle to end violence and progress towards statehood.

It seems to me that the Israeli's are provoking Hamas and the Palestinians to strike back at them. Recenlty Israel has been targeting a lot of Hamas members and Hamas member homes. I have a feeling that Israel is doing this is get Hamas angry, so that Hamas can do a suicide bombing in retaliation, and thus, giving Israel the excuse to assassinate Arafat. Yes? No?