U.S. stopped Israeli raid to seize Arafat

Originally posted by Fry2
Backpedal anyone?

"The decision [to remove Arafat] that we took two days ago was not for immediate action," Shalom said. "We are taking into account our allies and our friends, and that's the way we are working."

www.cnn.com...

Good find Fry.
But it leaves me to imagine that the US "pressured" Israel.
Then, "how" long will the pressure hold them at bay?
Israel wants Yassir gone so bad that they can virtually taste it....I'm having visions of the US holding a leash on a "foaming-at-the-mouth" dog.
Thanks for the find Fry.


And Fulcrum...I agree, but does it really matter to Israel? I mean, they feel they can take on virtually anyone in the Middle East and win....why would they care about increased hostility....no...I think it is far broader than that.

regards
seekerof

Money, yes.

If israel wants to call itself sovereign and its onw nation, then it needs to start by not taking any more US aid, period.

Its like this. You have your own house. You have alot of money, nice cars, nice clothes, ect. This comes in aprt from the huge amounts of money your uncle is sending you. Now, your uncle is sneding you this money because he wants you to say, be his protoge, or whatever. He sends you this money as long as you follow his guidelines. One day you decide youre tired of your uncles dictating things to you, and do something to piss him off. Should your uncle give you any more money? NO! We are not morally nore legally required to give Israel money. Israel is not required to take said money. But because Israel takes said money from the US, Israel is gonna have to do what the US says. Period. Any nation who takes our money and then bitches when we tell them to do something is a hypocrite. Dont want the US telling you what to do? Then stop taking US money, and go find another sugar daddy, or make it yourself!

of course its hypocritical. This we know! The world is a big smelly stew of hypocrisy! But thats the way things work.

You want to make your own way in life, and be your own master, that means youre gonna have to work at it on your own, and not take handouts or aid from people, because someday, thsoe people will call in thier markers and make you return the favor.

Arafat will probably disappear after the whole Iraq thing comes under control,and the surrounding countries agree to inspections and agree to bahve themselves.
If that ever happens it will be a miracle.

There is NO QUESTION that the US was fully behind this 180 in Israels stated intentions. I do agree with you that we should not tie the hands of the IDF while working within their own territory. Cross border incursions by Israel will have MUCH broader implications for the entire region. Like it or not we have been ASSIGNED the moderator position in this one.
All I can say is Arafat owes Powell a big ass fruit basket right about now.

Originally posted by DaRAGE

Originally posted by Seekerof


Here's some thoughts from me:
1) It's their country.

2) He's a bloomin' terrorist.


Comments?

regards
seekerof

Erm... Didn't you know Sharon massacred a heap of arabs years and years ago when he was in power, the israelis then threw him out and he went into exile, then he came back with a few henchmen and went the the mosques where arabs muslims/arabs were praying, they got kinda upset as you can imagine, they started getting a little violent, his henchmen stepped in and got violent also, and Israels wondered wtf to do, so they elected Sharon to put an end to the crisis that he created. Is Sharon a Terrorist? too right he is. So go shove ya "Arafats a terrorist" up ya bumhole. Sharons a Terroist too. It's terrorist vs Terrorist out there.

Hey DaRAGE: "It's terrorist vs Terrorist out there."

News Flash buddy.....if Israel and Palestine are considered "terrorists"...guess who would win if the "leash" was taken off Israel. How about "shove" that up your bumhole and smoke it too.

regards
seekerof

[Edited on 15-9-2003 by Seekerof]

Just found this article....
Posted by the Jerusalem Post.
Will have no link due to being a required password.

Article:
"US may be open to Arafat exile"
JPost ^ | 9-14-03 | JANINE ZACHARIA

"The Bush administration has indicated to Israel that it may be open to the idea of exile at some stage for PA Chairman Yasser Arafat if it is not done through force, despite public comments by senior US officials that Washington adamantly opposes the idea, diplomatic sources said.

"There is wide agreement (between Israel and) the administration that he has to leave the scene. But the question is a) how and b) the timing," a senior diplomatic source said Monday.

The source said that American officials, and even a few European countries, are "open to the idea," though they are concerned that an immediate deportation could trigger a Middle East flare up at a moment when Iraq is still unstable.

Another source in contact with Bush administration officials said the idea of exiling Arafat seems to be "gaining a bit of traction" in Washington. But several sources cautioned that despite the administration's deep frustration over Arafat's success in undermining the former US-backed Palestinian prime minister, Mahmoud Abbas, the US is not yet trying to negotiate a peaceful exile for Arafat.

Another Washington source said that US officials have quitely told Israelis that if they accompanied the exile with some very strong positive measures for the Palestinians and ensure "things would get better" they would in fact "welcome" the exile.

On Sunday's "Fox News Sunday," US Secretary of State Colin Powell said: "The United States does not support either the elimination of him or the exile of Mr. Arafat. It's not our position, hasn't been. The Israeli government knows it. And I think the consequences would not be good ones."

But later in the interview, when asked if he believed any leader in the region thought the region would be worse off without Arafat, Powell said: "The question is how Mr. Arafat departs from the scene. And if he departs from the scene as a result of Israeli action, I do not think that would help the road-map process."

That comment seemed to suggest Washington might be open to the possibility of Arafat leaving the scene by some way other than Israeli force.

A State Department official, when asked for clarification, said: "I think his quote is pretty clear. I think his comments speak for themselves. For him to be forcibly expelled wouldn't serve a useful purpose."

Some analysts have suggested that a negotiated exile would be the right course. "It would be far better for the United States to secure Arafat's exile through diplomacy rather than for Israel to achieve it through force," Robert Satloff, director of policy and strategic planning at the Washington Institute for Near East Policy, wrote in the Los Angeles Times on Friday.

And William Kristol, editor of the Weekly Standard, on Fox News Sunday, said, "if the US does not want Israel to remove him, why doesn't America make it a precondition of further dealing with the Palestinian Authority that he leave?"

"What did we do in Liberia? If you want our help, President Taylor has to go. So we can tell the Palestinians, 'If you want out help, and we're happy to give a lot of help, Yasser Arafat has to go,'" Kristol said."


regards
seekerof

Originally posted by DaRAGE
Erm... Didn't you know Sharon massacred a heap of arabs years and years ago when he was in power, the israelis then threw him out and he went into exile, then he came back with a few henchmen and went the the mosques where arabs muslims/arabs were praying, they got kinda upset as you can imagine, they started getting a little violent, his henchmen stepped in and got violent also, and Israels wondered wtf to do, so they elected Sharon to put an end to the crisis that he created. Is Sharon a Terrorist? too right he is. So go shove ya "Arafats a terrorist" up ya bumhole. Sharons a Terroist too. It's terrorist vs Terrorist out there.

If you�re not embarrassed, you should be. Learn something of the subject.

Originally posted by Fry2
In theory it works. In reality it would cause MANY more wars.
Here is why

the Jewish state with Jerusalem as its capital.

The Muslims (even moderates) would never stand for this. The whole #ing problem is the rift in religion!
I say we evacuate EVERYONE from Jerusalem and just nuke it(can't believe I just said that). Problem solved, NO ONE gets it.

Let's do that. No I'm kidding, it's true that Jerusalem is a problem ... And it has been a problem since many years ago. Solution ? maybe give a part of Jerusalem to the arabs ? It can work...

But what ever we do, as long as Sharon and Arafat are in power, their will be no hope for peace, you can't remove one without the other.

I personnaly don't think that Arafat and

[Edited on 15-9-2003 by Salem]

And this just in:
"US ambassador to UN: Washington won`t support assassination or expulsion of PA Chairman Arafat"
09/15/2003 2:54 PM PDT

Link: www.haaretz.com...

US reeling that "leash" in......

regards
seekerof

[Edited on 15-9-2003 by Seekerof]

Perhaps the Isrealis have a method behind the madness, per se'.....
Just found this:
"No Forced Exile for Arafat - Yet"
Link:
debka.com...

But get this from the article...excerpt:
....."Arafat seized on the PR gift presented him by the Israeli cabinet. Surrounded by media crews, he grabbed a microphone and shouted: �I�m not moving from here!� His followers took to the streets to shake their fists.

Aside from the ado about nothing, does Sharon�s game plan? After all, Israelis have been reduced to a nightmare existence of constantly looking over their shoulders for Palestinian suicide killers who could be lurking at any street corner, school, bus or shopping center, restaurant or park.

What was behind the sudden stationing of Israeli commandos and lookouts Thursday on tall buildings around Arafat�s government headquarters in Ramallah? Twenty-four hours later, they climbed down and left.

According to DEBKAfile�s intelligence and counter-terror sources, the explanation is this: Israel is finally going to start hitting the men at the hard core of Palestinian terror, the terror chiefs assembled under Arafat�s wing at his own offices in Ramallah. Until now, Israeli counter-terror operations focused on the Islamist groups, the Hamas and to a lesser degree the Jihad Islami. The Fatah, Tanzim, al Aqsa Martyrs� (Suicides) Brigades were barely scratched and the group sheltering in Arafat�s headquarters left untouched.

The first actions may begin next week. Their initial targets will be three men who appear on a select Israeli list of 13 wanted terrorists.

They are Kemal Ghanem, Khaled Shawasha and Jamil Tirawi � cousin of the notorious terror master Tawfiq Tirawi.

They will be informed that their names have been added to the dark catalogue of Hamas terror activists relentlessly targeted for assassination. Wherever they may be, Arafat will no longer be able to protect them.

The remaining 10 wanted terrorists will be taken out next.".....

Seems Israel will leave Yassir alone for the time being and start hitting Hamas where it really hurts.

Thoughts or comments?

regards
seekerof




[Edited on 16-9-2003 by Seekerof]

LOL....just found this also......
Seems Yassir has some plans of his own.......

"Arafat Plots Mega-Terror, Pushes PM-designate Qureia out of His Way"
Link:
debka.com...

Excerpt:
....."This time the source of the violence is not Hamas. The latest intelligence reaching Israeli quotes Arafat, who sits with his circle at a table in his Ramallah headquarters around the clock, as saying: �The struggle against the Israeli aggressors must not be influenced by what happens to me. Carry on with your sacred mission.�

These words were interpreted by his henchmen as an order to go all the way and carry out an attack so disastrous that it will force international intervention in the Palestinian-Israeli conflict and show the world that he, Yasser Arafat, is the sole Palestinian interlocutor.

Ahmed Qureia, his candidate for Palestinian prime minister, will not be allowed to get in the way of Arafat�s domination of any dialogue with the five big powers of the UN Security Council. He has therefore been thrust into the wings. Arafat calculates that a truly horrific terrorist outrage will bring home to the world�s leaders that Yasser Arafat, and he alone, holds the key to Middle East stability. His removal would also remove the Palestinians as a party to any diplomatic process. It is him or no one.

If he succeeds in this maneuver, Arafat will have undone the Bush-Sharon peace strategy and brought his confrontation with Israel to a successful conclusion, while also achieving his longstanding ambition to internationalize the dispute, downgrade Washington�s role and tip the international scales in the Palestinians� favor.".....

As the world turns.....in the Middle East....

regards
seekerof

Haha.

What do YOU think is the singlemost damaging thing to the roadmap? What do YOU think is holding back peace? What do YOU think should be addressed, so as to bring about a lasting peace agreement?

1) Yasser Arafat
2) 38 years of illegal occupation
3) The construction of an Apartheid-style fence
4) The continuing construction of Israeli settlements on Palestinian land

It's insulting to me to see Arafat trotted out as the main obstacle to Israeli/Palestinian peace. If you knew anything at all about the situation, you would be insulted as well.

To boil it all down to one idiot is the height of lunacy.


jakomo

Wow....LOL....thats like 'typical' Jakomo....
Israel is a nation...and Palestine is what? Illegal? BS....try mandated by the UN. Take your problems to them.
You got problems with Sharon...do something....cause Israel is setting the stage to ultimately do something about Arafat. I know alittle more about events over than then you think, be assurd of that....does it matter anyhow? NO.
Arafat will go soon enough...count on it. What will you do? Continue to cry foul? Please.

regards
seekerof



[Edited on 16-9-2003 by Seekerof]

I'm not surprised. Israel will do whatever the U.S. tells it to do.

Seekerof: "Israel is a nation...and Palestine is what? Illegal? BS....try mandated by the UN. Take your problems to them. "

Is this an argument? ?

" I know alittle more about events over than then you think, be assurd of that."

Haha, thanks for the laugh. What you "know" is the pro-Israeli, anti-Palestinian doody you constantly parrot. They're not your own ideas, they're repeated.

I live in Montreal, we have a HUGE Jewish population and an equally huge Arab-Muslim one. Every single week I hear someone with good ideas on either side, and I learn more...

You spend little time on these boards talking about ideas, you talk about JUSTIFICATIONS.

What you don't know about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict could fill a dumptruck.

The fact is, if the Israelis pulled out of all the Occupied Territories and stopped building illegal settlements, it would be the biggest move towards peace in the Middle East that has ever happened. Jews agree with it, Arabs agree with it.

And yet, by saying this, some would cry "Anti-Semite"!

And THOSE are the people who know the LEAST. It's all black and white for them, with no gray. Well, live a little longer on this earth and you'll learn that EVERYTHING is gray.

jakomo

With all due respect Jakomo....learn a little respect and you might recieve some in return. Did you read this thread fully through? Did anyone use the term: "anti-semite?" Whats your problem? There was no real putting down of anyone nor their comments till you entered into this topic....what gives? You got a problem with me...handle it with me....send me a U2U, but to come out in the open a verbally blast me for a stance shows just how much you "seem" to understand, eh?!
And, if you have no real imput into this topic or thread, as pretty much indicated by your two posts.....you need to be thinking about not posting.
There was a direction to this thread: the direction was why is the US being "hypocritical" with its foreign policies, in regards to Israel implementing it's own in taking out or expelling Y. Arafat, verses the US having and implementing a foreign policy to the contrary?
Again Jakomo.....did you read the thread before you decided to give your interpretations based on what? The subject and a few comments aimed at removing Arafat? What? Your points are, somewhat, already made on various other topics dealing with Israel and Palestine....what are you presenting that adds to this topic and information within?
You can contradict me and "hahaha" and belittle all you want....it really makes no difference to me Jakomo....but what others see, will make a difference on how they percieve you.

Present your solutions here....I and others would be interested in reading them. I have presented a few in various topics dealing with the issue of Palestine and Israel....long before you were here, as others have presented plans. irregardless though, just becuase someones opinion does not agree with yours....get a grip and have some respect. You blast away as if your opinion is correct...is it?! Prove it but it do it with respect, not belittlements. Your points will be recieved and go further than they currently are....

regards
seekerof



[Edited on 16-9-2003 by Seekerof]

Seekerof: Um, yeah. I did read the thread. If you need me to specifically answer each of your original points, I will. It seems to be your main point that the US is two-faced, and I'm in 100% agreement on that, it's not even worth arguing about.

""The United States does not support either the elimination or the exile of Mr. Arafat," Powell said. "It is not our position and the Israeli government knows this. There would be rage in the Arab world and the Muslim world. And I don't see this moving forward the roadmap.""

""Here's some thoughts from me:
1) It's their country. " So they're free to assassinate other countries leaders? The U.S. has no right to do it (though they did).

"2) He's a bloomin' terrorist. " He's not the main obstruction to peace, illegal settlements and political assassinations of Palestinian leaders is.

"3) Keeping him there isn't any help to the idiotic roadmap. What's more important, Powell? Israel's security or your precious ill-conceived roadmap. The Arabs are already raging and the Muslims hate Israel. Your roadmap, even if its idiotic goals could be achieved, would never bring peace."

Considering how Israel has been ignoring many of the points in the roadmap (continuing to build settlements and snubbing the US over the Separation Wall), what is your point? So if keeping him there is not helping, he should be killed or exiled? Do you think that would solve Arab hatred of Jews or increase it? Which is more helpful? Increasing hatred or lessening it?

"4) I am really confused about our Israeli policy. We are not allowing them to fight terror the way we are fighting terror. Just think if some Palestinian bomber blew himself up on a bus in NYC. Do you think we would hesitate to kill Arafat? The duplicity is mind boggling and downright disgusting. The road map is dead and it's high time the administration recognize that."

So if the US can go in and unilaterally invade another sovereign country, contrary to the United Nations, then Israel should be allowed to as well? Based on what moral superiority? Why can't every other country in the world do this? Can't Russia go in and slaughter any "suspected" Chechen rebels they want to?

"5) President Bush removed Saddam from power after
only 12 years of negotiation, why was there such a rush, if we are willing to negotiate with Arafat for more than 30 years, maybe 50 years?"

Considering how both of these situations are totally different (Iraq was not systematically imprisoning and terrorizing American citizens), your point is invalid.

And 12 years of negotiation?! What is your definition of "negotiation"? Do you consider sanctions as negotiation? No Fly Zones? The US didn't initiate ANY dialogue with Iraq since 1991. Look it up.

"6) There are two possibilities to this: 1) no matter what the U.S. says, Israel will do what is in Israel's national interest; and 2) no matter what Powell or anyone else says PUBLICALLY (and I don't trust the source), there might be a quite different message being transmitted privately. Judge it by the actions, not the verbiage."

I agree.

"7) This amounts to the US being "two-faced." WE have "our" policies but 'Lord forbide,' you can't implement your policies cause they will endanger our own. Hypocrites! I'm disgusted, but where can we go? Dean? Hah! "

Yep, the US is two faced on many issues. MANY MANY.

But again, you're going under the assumption that if the US can do something, so can Israel.

So why can't Lebanon? If they get a hold of an attack drone why can't they just slaughter Sharon and his cabinet? They can say it's an imminent threat and ignore the UN and go in and invade Israel. I mean, the US did it, right, so fair's fair.

Why can't North Korea? Iran? Jordan?\

Wouldn't this make the whole world more dangerous? Kind of like a global Wild West? It may be well and good for the 5 most powerful countries in the world but what about the other 180?

If you try and find ANY parallels between Iraq-US and Palestine-Israel then you're quite possibly delusional. The only thing in common is the fact that it's a Top 5 Military Power attacking a Third World country with no Air Force or large army. And it war against Arabs. A war against Arabs based on the perceived need to kill a few militant, fundamentalist wackos.

My whole point was that NONE OF THIS IS HELPFUL. To kill Arafat would be the worst thing they could do, it would breed more hatred and anger amongst Arabs and every other free-thinking person on the planet. Is this helpful to the Israeli cause?

Or if he's exiled, is it in Israel's best interest to have him jetsetting around the world talking to Putin and Chirac and, hell, Castro?

In this instance, the US is dead-to-rights in condemning this. Arafat is not the main obstacle to the roadmap, Sharon's administration is.

And I apologize, Seeker, if you found my post to be a little inflammatory. It's absolutely never my intention to personalize any of this or to perceived as lashing out at individuals on ATS. But, unfortunately, I'm fallible, like we all are. So again, sorry.

But I still do believe that boiling this all down to the need to remove Arafat is ludicrous. Once he's out of the picture everyone will be throwing flowers at each other?

jakomo

I think you guys (seekerof and jakomo) should get a grudgematch going.

I agree that killing arafat would be more trouble than it's worth Jak. I disagree with you on one point though. You say that assasinating political leaders on Israel's part is an obstruction to peace. Unfortunately those people who have been on the receiving end of these strikes aren't political leaders. Last time I checked the high-ups of Hamas weren't elected or appointed political leaders. They are terrorists. There is a difference.

If they conducted targeted assasinations on Arafat, Abbas and that sort, then I would be with you on this 100% Jak.

Jakomo....apology accepted and I offer mine as well. I should have handled my last post as a U2U but I "assumed" that you would see/take it wrong and I am sorry for that.

I enjoy your comments Jakomo.....Gore trying to stir up some debate bullcrap, which I want no parts of...but, nonetheless, you speak with alot of wisdom. Do I agree with that 'wisdom' all the time...no. Do you agree with all mine? No. We have opinions. I try to be tactful when I can but if I do offend anyone, as most can atest here at ATS, I will not hesitate to apologize for it.

Your comments were appreciated and I thank you sir for them. Well answered. In issues like this, with Israel and Palestine, even discussions can revert to argumentitive stances. My hopes was that this would stay away from that, and pretty much, it has. I thank you again for your comments and hope to see more Jakomo.
Got to run...classes.
I hope you will accept my apology for any wrong doing or provocation I had given you. Stay cool Jakomo....

regards
seekerof