Is America in a no win situation in the world?

Originally posted by Salem

Originally posted by Leveller
I'm pretty sure that, looking at the average US citizen, the US would never survive on it's own. If you could survive on your own without leeching off the rest of us - then go for it. But the fact is that we have the money and the resources that you need and you just can't live without in The Rest of the World. You need to sell to make money to buy your TVs with and you need to spend your money on Japanese cars (let's face it - yours are crap).
Honestly - do you think that you can live without your market?

I'm pretty sure that, looking at the average Israeli citizen, Israel would never survive on it's own.

Let's face it, without US support of Israel, less terrorism.

If the US had kept it's nose out of Middle East politics you would probably find that Israel would be flourishing. Most of the trouble that you see is due to US influence in the area over oil. Israel is there as a safeguard. The only white democratic nation overlooking the worlds main resource of liquid gold.
Do you think the Jews went there because the British allowed them to? Do you think that the most powerful country in the world would have been unaware what the fallout would be? Israel was put there by the major nations to do a job. Once you stop funding it, it will no longer be indebted to you and will be able to do what it wants.

If the US stopped funding Israel, it would have no say in Israel's foriegn policies. The Jews could wipe the Arab nations from the face of the map. They are entirely capable of doing so. Terrorism would go one of two ways. Either Israel would completely destroy it's enemies and in the process destroy Arab nations or there would be a long protracted war which Israel would finally lose and then itself be wiped from the map. And then what do you think is going to happen?
You've just advocated the destruction of an entire race (be it Jew or Arab).

So fine. Not your problem anyway is it? Ooops. Look at all those Jews and Arabs you have living over there.
Do you reckon that they are going to sit tere and thank you for it. You will be blamed for being the most powerful nation and sitting there and letting it happen. You will be blamed for starting it all in the first place. YOU WILL BE BLAMED. And when you get blamed you become a target.

You have no choice. You got involved and ARE involved. It's way too late in the day to turn your back. Every single ally would turn their back on you. You would become competition. You would become an enemy to everyone. Isolationism would be the death of America. The only reason that you advocate such a thing is through ignorance. You might have an understandiong of your own country but you have absolutely no understanding of the rest of the world whatsoever.



Finally Seekerof. I'm afraid that I have to agree with Netchicken. The plain fact is that the vast majority of the US population is totally and utterly ignorant about what occurs in the Rest of the World. They have no concept whatsoever about what goes on outside of their borders. I was in SanFrancisco a few years ago and bought a newspaper. Within that newspaper was one item regarding international news - everthig else was domestic. The TV was the same - everything domestic. This was whilst there were some massive political changes going on in Europe, wars in Africa and strife in Israel. Yet nowhere were the American people being informed. You're already facing a form of information isolationism. Unless you actually hunt down the news you never find it over there. And the vast majority can't see further than their own noses. You get comments like you have seen here - "let them rot in their own mess". It's based on ignorance. The fact is that we in the West look upon you with pity as you have everything but happiness. We live our lives in general, without the mass feeling of fear and hysteria that seems to come along with being American these days.
I know where I'd rather be.

It is the modern world that I think is in trouble only because
we have all become as dependant as children to lifestyle obsession. If any event of cataclysmic proportion threatened
our existence it would be the tribal few peoples that would
probably see higher survival ratios. Most rely on the technological
and mass produced handout and would suffer the ignorance we
now have of plant biology (what is edible and substantial), or
anything involving living from the Earth alone with no way of
preserving or wanting to, this way of life. Consumption with no
real per-capita production is assigned death in such a scenario.
The meek shall be rewarded in that their current oppression
have leaned to live without, make due and survive while I know
of people who have no concept of struggling for real to survive.
Self assigned fate? The American condition is also avoidable as
it is us and our attitude we must change, not the world in general.

Originally posted by Seekerof
Ahhhh yes.....lets bash America.
Just what are you bashing when you use the term and word: "America," Netchicken? The people? Their way of life? Their beliefs? The governement?
Who lives in the "perfect" country? I know I don't.
Let's see....America is the land of the fat....
...the uneducated....
...the cowards....
...the poor....
...the ignorant....
...the arrogant....
...the land of illusionment...
...the land that every nation wishes to crap on...
...we dug our OWN hole so now we must live with the consequences....
I see.....
Thank you for your awesome and well felt feelings on "America."

Don't mind me though. I will slumber away and see if I can fit into one of those sub-categories, if not already in one, eh?

regards
seekerof

[Edited on 14-9-2003 by Seekerof]

Well, Seekerof.. can you deny that this doesnt fit the "whole of the America", cause if you say so.. you are lier.

I dont deny that there isnt many fine people in US yourself included.. but your system and govermant are rotten.

1) Many are fat. (US is the "fatest" nation ever.)

2) Most are uneducated. (ignorant.)

3) You are cowards. (fighting defenceless 3rd world armys/gunmen from 5000m, with your bombers.)

4) You are arrogant. (US gov. has the "American century plan", also known as the NWO.)

5) The land that every nation wishes to crap on. (Is this a surprice to you when you look at the first 4 points?)

6) We dug our OWN hole so now we must live with the consequences. (Yes, and if i remember correctly this can be found from the bible.. and as "you" are the "chosen", so you must respect what is writen i the book. God bless USA! If you do evil things to others, you shall yourself "receive" evil acts in return.)

And you should also note Seekerof, that when people are "attacking" US here they (at least i) point their anger at the goverment or some of the false values / beliefs, and these are mostly because of your goverment so..

When we talk about "America" we mean: US goverment.. as i for one dont have any beef with any US citizens personally.. (well maybe with goregrinder.. but he is a an ignorant bottomhole.. so my dislike for him doesnt have anything to do with the fact that he is from US.)

Like i have been telling you it isnt people that i hate, it is evil acts.
US people and gov. should understand that 911 happened for a reason, OBL did what the whole world has silently wished for last 100 years, bring the war on continental US.. to give you a little taste what the war really is. But you failed to see the reasons for this act: your own evil acts in past 100 years, played the victim card and turned into even more violent.

This story is the one that most do not realise,the events leading up to the way things are today all over the world.
Unfortunately,the politicians have decided that it is "their world" and don't think the rest of us here have any real right to go against what they see as their duty to do,which is chasing around for a few years and retiring rich masquerading as servicing the needs of humanity.
I plan on collecting all of this info and writing the story out in my own words someday,but this author got pretty close already.
Read the whole article before you decide to counter,it sheds light on the truth,and those who are responsible.

redmoonrising.com...

Originally posted by FULCRUM
3) You are cowards. (fighting defenceless 3rd world armys/gunmen from 5000m, with your bombers.)

Like i have been telling you it isnt people that i hate, it is evil acts.
US people and gov. should understand that 911 happened for a reason, OBL did what the whole world has silently wished for last 100 years, bring the war on continental US.. to give you a little taste what the war really is. But you failed to see the reasons for this act: your own evil acts in past 100 years, played the victim card and turned into even more violent.

Cowards? What is wrong with modern warefare? It saves OUR lives. Screw the enemy combatants. It also saves civilian lives. Yes some die, but not as many as would die under old tactics.
You say you have nothing against the American people and that you dont hate them. Yet you say that you and the rest of the world was glad that we got a 'taste of what the war really is'. I believe over 2,750 INNOCENT people were murdered at the world trade center. So even if in your own twisted mind they were guilty of something.... you bassically saying evil justifies evil.

Net Chicken, what are you talking about?

Never left isolatyionism? Wrong. Do you even know what isolationism is?

It means, we stay out of your biz, you stay out of ours. Pure and simple. No more military in other countries. No more cooperations operating franchises outside our borders. It means, no more involevemnt in world affairs. Are you even talking about the same thing?

It means becoming slef sufficent and totally neutral in world affairs. No more involvement, No more wars in foreign lands that dont concern us. No more Koreas, no more Vioetnams, Gulf Wars, WW1, WW2, ect.

Unilateralism is nothing in the same boat as isolationism. Its FAR from it, almost the opposite. It means simple: US influences no one anymore, no one influences us. We stay here, we concentrate and work within our own borders on our own problems. What the rest of the world does, we simply dont get involved unless it affects us.

Being part of the UN, NATO, these things would end. Interests overseas would be brought back home.Our focus would be within our own borders. On our people, not what dip#s across the world want to do. If they wanna run amok and bomb each other, so long as they dont bother us, thats fione with me.

Im sick of US troops in other countries. Im sick of US jobs sent overseas to American factories in slave labor pools. Im sick of foreign aid. Im sick of the UN. Im sick of being the worlds policeman. These are all AGAINST the ideals of isolationism.

Everyone here can agree: The US interferes. the US has too many troops over seas. the US sucks up other peoples resources. The US coorperations are taking oiver the world. You wanna stop it? Thats what isolationism is about. Everything American retained within American borders. No more involvment with other nations period, except for basic diplomacy.

Leveler, Israel sucks up 3 billion a year. Would they survive without US aid? probably. Do I care? No. The US didnt create Israel. The british started letting Zionist settlers in that region long before Israel was ever a state. You also created Iraq, which was a mistake, taking a country of a bunch of seperate groups and tribes that ahted each other and put them under one banner. Europe did that with the whole middle east practically. Big mistakes. And now were over there opening the wounds deeper.

Isolationism must happen if we are to avoid the fate of Rome. We will lose everything if we dont. The survival of this country is more important than the wealth of this country, or its power.

America must remain strong unto itself, and take care of itself, become self sufficent, even tho it may cost us our exxessive wasteful lifestyle. So long as we remain strong enough to defend ourselves from outside interference, influences, and other noisome things, then we shall be fine, even if nopt rich, at least well be stable and able to take care of ourselves without depending on foreign resources.

Originally posted by Leveller

Originally posted by Salem

Originally posted by Leveller
I'm pretty sure that, looking at the average US citizen, the US would never survive on it's own. If you could survive on your own without leeching off the rest of us - then go for it. But the fact is that we have the money and the resources that you need and you just can't live without in The Rest of the World. You need to sell to make money to buy your TVs with and you need to spend your money on Japanese cars (let's face it - yours are crap).
Honestly - do you think that you can live without your market?

I'm pretty sure that, looking at the average Israeli citizen, Israel would never survive on it's own.

Let's face it, without US support of Israel, less terrorism.

If the US had kept it's nose out of Middle East politics you would probably find that Israel would be flourishing. Most of the trouble that you see is due to US influence in the area over oil. Israel is there as a safeguard. The only white democratic nation overlooking the worlds main resource of liquid gold.
Do you think the Jews went there because the British allowed them to? Do you think that the most powerful country in the world would have been unaware what the fallout would be? Israel was put there by the major nations to do a job. Once you stop funding it, it will no longer be indebted to you and will be able to do what it wants.

If the US stopped funding Israel, it would have no say in Israel's foriegn policies. The Jews could wipe the Arab nations from the face of the map. They are entirely capable of doing so. Terrorism would go one of two ways. Either Israel would completely destroy it's enemies and in the process destroy Arab nations or there would be a long protracted war which Israel would finally lose and then itself be wiped from the map. And then what do you think is going to happen?
You've just advocated the destruction of an entire race (be it Jew or Arab).

So fine. Not your problem anyway is it? Ooops. Look at all those Jews and Arabs you have living over there.
Do you reckon that they are going to sit tere and thank you for it. You will be blamed for being the most powerful nation and sitting there and letting it happen. You will be blamed for starting it all in the first place. YOU WILL BE BLAMED. And when you get blamed you become a target.

You have no choice. You got involved and ARE involved. It's way too late in the day to turn your back. Every single ally would turn their back on you. You would become competition. You would become an enemy to everyone. Isolationism would be the death of America. The only reason that you advocate such a thing is through ignorance. You might have an understandiong of your own country but you have absolutely no understanding of the rest of the world whatsoever.



Finally Seekerof. I'm afraid that I have to agree with Netchicken. The plain fact is that the vast majority of the US population is totally and utterly ignorant about what occurs in the Rest of the World. They have no concept whatsoever about what goes on outside of their borders. I was in SanFrancisco a few years ago and bought a newspaper. Within that newspaper was one item regarding international news - everthig else was domestic. The TV was the same - everything domestic. This was whilst there were some massive political changes going on in Europe, wars in Africa and strife in Israel. Yet nowhere were the American people being informed. You're already facing a form of information isolationism. Unless you actually hunt down the news you never find it over there. And the vast majority can't see further than their own noses. You get comments like you have seen here - "let them rot in their own mess". It's based on ignorance. The fact is that we in the West look upon you with pity as you have everything but happiness. We live our lives in general, without the mass feeling of fear and hysteria that seems to come along with being American these days.
I know where I'd rather be.

Totally wrong, if US stop funding Israel, the Israel gvt wont be able to use their military strenght and opress the palestinians, they will have to resolve the palestine problem like any good minded nation, they will have to do concession and it will lower the support of palestinians for Hamas and Al Quaeda. Yes i'm advocated in the extermination of a race, but not the jews, the arabs, and i want it to stop right now, my jew and my muslim friends are bored to see their alter ego massacring each others because that the two gvt ( palestinian/israeli ) are not even wiser than 11 years old kids.

You will be blamed for starting it all in the first place. YOU WILL BE BLAMED. And when you get blamed you become a target.

Nobody will be blamed, because it wont start anything.

You have no choice. You got involved and ARE involved. It's way too late in the day to turn your back. Every single ally would turn their back on you. You would become competition. You would become an enemy to everyone. Isolationism would be the death of America. The only reason that you advocate such a thing is through ignorance. You might have an understandiong of your own country but you have absolutely no understanding of the rest of the world whatsoever.

No i'm not taking that position because of ignorance, far from it, i'm taking that's position because in my country jews muslims and americans are aside each other, so I can get their points of view.

Seeing that we can all read the current American trajectory, what happens when America "loses"?

WWIII? Severe worldwide economic depression? Civil War ala John Titor-style? Should we kill our selves now?

If America goes isolationist, it wont have to happen like that.

In order for this to happen, the public desire for withdrawal from world affairs needs to be fostered. It wont happen now in its current state of things. But that doesnt mean things wont and cant change overnight. Our lives changed in one day in Sep of 2001. One incident can change it again.

Americans are already losing thier prosperrity. the middle class is disappearing, and the s;ave collar of debt is strangling people. In order to have alot of nice things in large amounts, it requires debt. Now, even daily living expenses require burdensome debt.

Whether they want it or not, they will lose thier toys and objects of interest. They can do it in a way that in the long term will benefit them, or they can do it when its all ripped from udner thier fat asses. Thier choice.

I would think that would be the sane reaction to financial collapse,I would think that such an occurrence would steer people away from running up huge debt and allowing governments to do what they do now.
It is a shame how dependent people have become on not-essential for survival technology.

Originally posted by Salem


Totally wrong, if US stop funding Israel, the Israel gvt wont be able to use their military strenght and opress the palestinians, they will have to resolve the palestine problem like any good minded nation, they will have to do concession and it will lower the support of palestinians for Hamas and Al Quaeda.


Nobody will be blamed, because it wont start anything.

Pah!! You fool. You can't see further than the end of your own nose.
Don't you understand?

IT'S TOO LATE!!!!

The Israelis have all the military technology they need and Hamas have all the support they need.
You're trying to lock the stable door after the horse has bolted!!!

Originally posted by Langolier
Cowards? What is wrong with modern warefare? It saves OUR lives. Screw the enemy combatants. It also saves civilian lives. Yes some die, but not as many as would die under old tactics.
You say you have nothing against the American people and that you dont hate them. Yet you say that you and the rest of the world was glad that we got a 'taste of what the war really is'. I believe over 2,750 INNOCENT people were murdered at the world trade center. So even if in your own twisted mind they were guilty of something.... you bassically saying evil justifies evil.

Your lives arent any different, yet it seems that you think they are.. why is that?
If the rest of us are just 'scum', and it is ok to kill us, without of danger to be killed by yourself, you are both a coward and a racist / US supremist.

And what comes to the victims of 911:

Most of those people in the hijacked planes were totally innocents.

But those in Pentagon werent. As Pentagon has the highest "body count" of all.
(is respossible for more human lives taken than "anyone" else.)

And also WTC is/was a HQ of WTO.. one of the most sinister organisations since SS-VT, since WTO turns whole nations to concentration camps.

Unfortenately there was also innocents at the WTC, as the 'high and mighty' do need their places cleaned and cafes served.

Even many Americans know this, or have you forgotten for examble Seattle riots?

So, there were also other evil people killed in 911 than the hijackers.

... So now you think 9/11 was a GOOD thing huh? Dude, you REALLY need some frontal lobe work...

P...
m...

I see a lot of responses of denial aimed at stifling or avoiding the truth in many of these threads.
Denial that there is a possibility that the lifestyle they enjoy may have something to do with the state of affairs in the world today.
Denial of the possibility that they have become dependent on their corrupt governments.
Denial of the possibiltiy that they may just be posers.
If you have loyalties for material things,that is loyalty is wasted loyalty that should be given to your family and fellow man instead of a "thing".
The people in the WTC were not innocent,there were a lot of innocent people in the crossfire.
The "terrorists" were not innocent,either.
I am so tired of trying to dance around the subject of the truth,the majority do not want to hear that they are not a legend in their own mind as they believe they are,it's easy to be successful and pretend that everything you do is right at the expense of others without giving any thought to the damage they are doing to others.
Go watch Star Trek,count your money and give no thought to what it cost someone else to make you so comfortable.
And you can blame yourself when you see what you thought was a light at the end of the tunnel is actually a freight train.

Originally posted by Springer
... So now you think 9/11 was a GOOD thing huh? Dude, you REALLY need some frontal lobe work...

P...
m...

You need some STFU! Dont treathen me.

And i didnt say it was a good thing, i just think that i was somewhat just.

Against Pentagon and WTO.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't....

It's not the US that's in a no-win situation, it's the current administration....

Let's see....America is the land of the fat.... A: Yet we constantly do well in the Olympics, and have more diverse pro-atheletes and sports than anyone...
...the uneducated.... A: Yet people come from all over to attend our schools
...the cowards.... A: Yet we are the first called when a nation is bullying another
...the poor.... A: Yet many come here for opportunities of a better life
...the ignorant.... A: Yet our technology is second to none...
...the arrogant.... A: Not arrogant....proud....pride in our accomplishments, and in our nation's power.
...the land of illusionment... A: Yet others strive to live as we do
...the land that every nation wishes to crap on... A: Maybe they should reanalyze their feelings toward their homeland, as to why they are lashing out.
...we dug our OWN hole so now we must live with the consequences.... A: We dig these holes, because the ones who should be digging them, don't have the balls to do it...

I think it is the African Americans that do the sports in US..

Not that it has anything to do with anything, but still.. they are Africans, formely your slaves..

People that were kidnapped from their native countries..

think it is the African Americans that do the sports in US..

Not that it has anything to do with anything, but still.. they are Africans, formely your slaves..

People that were kidnapped from their native countries..

What's the second word? (oh yeah...Americans).

Slavery? You're seriously bringing up slavery? I try not living more than 100 years in the past myself.... As if we were the only ones who practiced slavery.... Others started that long before America did...hell, before the US ever even existed.... They aren't Africans, any more than I'm Irish or English. They are Americans.

How unimportant things like sports and all come up as a defense for the US.
They worked really good to distract you from what was happening to your country while you were distracted,racism and pride and all.......
The current administrations passing will make no difference,even in the event a third party ran to and won,the electoral college would have the last say and anyone who is going to make any big changes who would not suit their interests would never get in.
Stop living in la la land,the elected officials don't mean squat,the real decisions are made by people who won't leave when the current administration goes away.
Study law and human nature,the problem here would become obvious then.
The scriptures of most faiths warn us of this,gee,I wonder why they wanted the ten commandments out of that courthouse?,must have been so that the bad guys didn't have to pass by them and think about what they do for a living.
The compartmentalisation of the educational systen plays an important roll in making sure that no one can see the truth about what is going on,and so does the compartmentalisation of most businesses.
They don't want you to know too much,you might pry open your third eye then....

Im just saying that dont take credit for something that doesnt belong to you.

America is a place, not a nation, you are just mixed collection of people around the world, people who really dont even get along with each others. Let alone with rest of the world.