Leveler,

Pearl Harbor was a direct attempt to get us out of isolation. Our gov had foreknowledge of pearl harbor.

Regardless, we werent as Isoloationist back then as we should have been. We were flying into China on secret missions, perhaps goading japan to attack.

Isolationism doesnt mean if attacked we dont fight back. if someone attacks us, after we have pulled our influnce out of thier countries and trouble them no more, we obiliterate them period for not respecting our isolation. other then that, if they aint buggin us, we leave them alone.

Look to pre world war 1 america to see the benefits and virtues of isolationism. it served us in our first 120 years of existance.

Will either be sucked into the same cesspool the rest of the world lives in and be destroyed and forgotten,or it will learn the lessons it did the first time around and once again become a force to be reckoned with.
I pray for the latter,I don't care what you think of my views,the majority of you are blinded by your wants anyway,your opinion is hazed by the blinders your life style installed on your head when you became addicted to it.
That would be,specifically,that your asshole blocks your view.

Yes America is in a no win situation but its in a situation of its OWN making. There is no need to point blame to any other country in the world.

We have heard people here talking about isolationism and that America should return to it. But America never LEFT it. Sure its imposed its military might and ecnomic might on some parts of the world.

But the people still have an isolationist mentality.
That "Might means right"
That "We have more material goods therefore we are correct".
That "Our political system is the best"
That "We know the way you should live"

Isn;'t it ironic that America promotes a form of democracy that it does not even have itself?

Isn't it also ironic that a country so desperate for oil drives some of the most petrol thirsty vehicles on the planet? That the hypocracy of owning a Hummer or SUV is entirely missed by most Americans? How short sighted and blinkered is the average American population?

The problem is not only isolation but its brother.. unilateralism. America still thinks it can go its own way in the world without having to compromise to match the viewpoints of the other 4 billion people on the planet.

If Iraq had been handled through the UN, in cooperation with other countires, like the first Iraq war was, then it wouldn't be in this situation its in now. This is a pit of its own making, you can't expect Gernamy, France, etc to come running to help in Iraq and having its own soldiers killed.

Don't forget in the end France was right, America had NO justification for the invasion.

America is in a hole of its own making, gues how it will get out? Through the good will of other countries? A little probably, but mostly through bribery, and economic blackmail of other countries to help it. Do you think the large group of Polish soldiers are in Iraq for the Weather and the holiday? Why do you think tha New Zealand has sudden'y decided to change and send peacekeepers? Nothing less than economic blackmail.

This unilateral coercive arrogent attitude that America brings to world affairs will eventually be the downfall of it.

Is in the trouble it is in by no fault of the population of america,only a small percentage of this country live the lifestyle which you accuse us of living.....Chicken.....
Those who enjoy living that lifestyle are imitating the european cesspool lifestyle ([poser liar types],Yes I dare say it,I don't care what you think,I know it's not PC,# PC),they are the minority,they are mostly government and big business.
This situation has very little to do with the majority here other than the fact we have to pay for the government's mistakes with our taxes.
Hope we get together and force a change here,so we can leave all you other arrogant little fellers to your demise without help from "the world police force",which is the US military.
Let the rest of the world rot , it's already ruined anyway,that must be why so many want to escape to the US.
???hmmm???

Ahhhh yes.....lets bash America.
Just what are you bashing when you use the term and word: "America," Netchicken? The people? Their way of life? Their beliefs? The governement?
Who lives in the "perfect" country? I know I don't.
Let's see....America is the land of the fat....
...the uneducated....
...the cowards....
...the poor....
...the ignorant....
...the arrogant....
...the land of illusionment...
...the land that every nation wishes to crap on...
...we dug our OWN hole so now we must live with the consequences....
I see.....
Thank you for your awesome and well felt feelings on "America."
Don't mind me though. I will slumber away and see if I can fit into one of those sub-categories, if not already in one, eh?

regards
seekerof

[Edited on 14-9-2003 by Seekerof]

It seems like Unbalanced is about the only one on the thread that sees things as they are instead of thru some propaganda induced metal fog.

Guess what, the U.S. Government has been hijacked and has been so since around 1948. It was starting even before then though but that's when the **** started hitting the fan. We don't elect our presidents they get appointed. Yes, a lot of Americans are really stupid but it's because of how they were raised. They were raised by baby boomers living in the idealistic world created from Reaganomics. All I see is advertising. They stoled our true happiness and now are trying to sell happiness through buying products. It's a freakin slave population. Corporate slaves that get taxed on wages and then give the rest back to corporations. The corporations don't make money from free energy or well made products. It's a scam. America is one big scam and I was just born smack dab in the middle of it. It's a scam of the ultra-rich to get even richer.

And once again how was it done? Divide and Conquer.

It's not Islam vs. Christianity. It's not Black vs. White. It's not Europe vs. Yankee. It's not muslim vs. the great white satan.

It's ultra-stupid ultra-rich old greasy satan worshipping families. They make up about .0001% of the planet. And guess what. The other 6 billion are so dumb, so blind, so much like cattle that they can't see. If only they could see they could unite. That's why these bass turds go slow with their world conquest. They know that if any small portion of the population unites against them they are done.

I could really care less if you want to put your forehead on the floor and say thanks to some ficticious being you read in a book. I don't care if you want to wear a cross in rememberance of some guy that may have lived a few thousand years ago. And I really don't care if you think you are the chosen race. Fact is we are all the chosen race. We are all human. Screw color. Screw religion. Screw everyone's mind created realities. If we don't wake up and unite soon we are all done. Do you really think these bass turds want 6 billion cattle taking up their beautiful planet??? H3LL NO!!!

And you know I'm not even mad at the ultra-rich robots. I'm mad at my fellow humans. You sold us all out. And you continue to do so. Thanks for making my life total crap. Thanks for making me a slave to people dumber than me. Thanks for being a bunch of easily hearded cattle. Thanks for being soooo shallow you can't see past color, race, religion or even location. Thanks for keeping all the soulless psychopaths in power. Thanks for believing what your government tells you. Thanks for screwing everything up. Thanks for allowing it to happen. We could still clean up this mess but when we are still fighting over what damn book has the best story of the best god, well, there's no hope.

Guess what, they are all WRONG. The Jewish story is wrong, the christian story is wrong and the muslim story is wrong. They were written to create wars. They were written to divide and conquer. And it's sickening that's it worked so well. I mean books. The whole world decieved by freaking ink on paper written by people you've never seen and never will. I just can't express how utterly moronic and stupid that is.

In a word: MOOOOOOOOOO!!!

Ohhh, the stick hurts when its poked in your ribs doesn't it uNBaLaNCeD and seekerof

Never mind that the same stick you gladly wield to condemn and abuse other countires just because they have the guts to disagree with you.

Maybe Ultra Phenox, Zion, John B and other people here like to learn that they live in a "European Cesspool". Never mind that you don't define the term, just use it (repeatedly) as a stereotypical objectification of a land with more history, culture and diversity than America ever has.

Hope we get together and force a change here,so we can leave all you other arrogant little fellers to your demise without help from "the world police force",which is the US military.

Here is the "myth" of the great altruistic amerian policeman. It doesn't exist. The reason America acts as a policeman today is to protect its own strategic investments. Its not to "help out the rest of the unfortunate world" its to safeguard its own interests first.

Let the rest of the world rot , it's already ruined anyway,that must be why so many want to escape to the US.

Yet another American myth. Who want to excape to your country? Only those from 3rd world countries, with people who would be happy to excape anywhere rather than where they are at present.

I don't see Canadians, Europeans, Australaians, etc all wanting to emigrate to America. Keep believing your myths, thats whats fed to you in your socialization.

Now to Seekerof.
Lets bash america?
I am only answering the topic, I didn't initiate the thread. If you don't like my sentiments then you are free to not read them.

What I say may go against what you are indoctrinated with, but thats because your society so successfully incorporates the American myth into its populace that you are often unable to discern the truth.

A good example is the following. Last night I was watching the 700 club (without much interest it was a friends TV) and they had a piece on a person who died in 9/11.

They interviewed the grieving wife who said how much of a hero he was and what a true patriot he was. Now thats OK except that they didn't know what he did! He was somewhere there and the think he "may " have helped in making the train move on from the station instead of stopping. But all that was conjecture.

The purpose of the set piece was to emphasise that becuase he was there he died as a hero and we should all be proud of him. He "Served His Country".

Once you have learned that its important to "serve your country" then what you actually do in the serving is only of secondary importance. You don't judge, analyse, or reflect on your actions, becuase you have successfully become a worker ant intent on"Serving your country". Your conscious is subsumed into the act of serving. Communist Russia, Nazi Germany etc all use the same principles. Don't think, just Do.

It was a contrived piece to invoke patriotism and nationalism. "WE sacrificed our great heros against THEM, the evil arabs, or the evil OTHER, who seek to destroy our lifestyle"

This same set piece was repeated ad nauseum on 9/11 rememberence day. it probably worked as well. I expect to get flamed from posters who will repeat exactly what they have been indoctrinated to say.

Yeah.....whatever Net....
ALL of us American's who live in "America" are indoctrinated, blind, media believeing, 700 Club watchers, etc...... Keep believing that. If it make soyu feel good when you go to bed at night thinking you know thats fact, so be it and more power to ya.

I bash no nation, except a dabble on France every so on. Check my postings Net. Your premise that I don't have to read the "truth" coming from you is also correct. Though, I do choose to.....I take no offense in your "truth." I question it though. You still have not answered what was asked....what is expressed by the term and usage of "America?"

But feel free not to answer it. I have gathered enough from your two postings in this thread to 'assume' that you are specifically talking about the people, etc. And that's where my problem lies..... You "group," classify and stereotype American's as ALL. Correct? No matter though, its a view that you and all the world can take. I, personally, feel that thats incorrect and such a stereotyping is false, but thats my opinion....it doesn't matter anyhow.

regards
seekerof

I have to agree that Isolationism is just a dream. We have never really fallowed such a plan and we never will. Maybe we are the "worlds police" as an unintentional effect of protecting our own interests. However does that matter? The only reason I support our continued troop presence overseas is because without it WW2 could easily happen again. They invade one country....ok, just dont invade another one please. They invade another one; ok i would appreciate it if you would stop. Then the aggressor invades the country asking them to stop. Suddenly Britian is the only nation left standing against Nazi Germany. Sound Familiar? Thats because thats history. Its also the history of things to come if we dont intervene when other countries invade thier neighbors. It sucks, but we are ALL in this together weather we like it or not.

Sorry I missed your question Seekerof. The debate is so huge that I just got sidetracked thats all.

So what is the "America" that I am condemning?
I suppose it is sociological america. The america of averages, of polls, and the america of popular media portrayal.

Of course every person has different views, but statistically, and sociologically they form a happy mean. And its that "average american" that I was referring to.

So if you don't consider yourself the average american, then don't feel affronted by my comments.

BTW the example above was just that, it was repeated throughout the mainstream media as well.

Sometimes it takes a person who is outside the culture to really be able to see what is happening. When you are immersed in it it can be a consuming experience. What you take for "normal" the excessive patriotism of flags everywhere etc, may be considered "abnormal" to other people.

But back to the topic, the America there I speak of is the "political America" of actions, and intentions obviously wielded by a small minority on behalf of the population. If you didn't vote for Bush then consider yourself not included in the condemnation. As our Prime Minister publically said of the Iraq situation "This wouldn't of happened under Gore".

Correction Net...
I said above: "I bash no nation, except a dabble on France every so on." I was incorrect....I also bash the country I live in.....America.

regards
seekerof

Why cant Americans wave their flags if they want to? I dont consider myself and 'average American' however I take offense to your words because I know "average Americans" and they are nice people. They have every right to live how they want to live. Define "normal", how do you know that your way is the right way? or the 'normal' way?

Originally posted by Netchicken
Sorry I missed your question Seekerof. The debate is so huge that I just got sidetracked thats all.

So what is the "America" that I am condemning?
I suppose it is sociological america. The america of averages, of polls, and the america of popular media portrayal.

Of course every person has different views, but statistically, and sociologically they form a happy mean. And its that "average american" that I was referring to.

So if you don't consider yourself the average american, then don't feel affronted by my comments.

BTW the example above was just that, it was repeated throughout the mainstream media as well.

Sometimes it takes a person who is outside the culture to really be able to see what is happening. When you are immersed in it it can be a consuming experience. What you take for "normal" the excessive patriotism of flags everywhere etc, may be considered "abnormal" to other people.

But back to the topic, the America there I speak of is the "political America" of actions, and intentions obviously wielded by a small minority on behalf of the population. If you didn't vote for Bush then consider yourself not included in the condemnation. As our Prime Minister publically said of the Iraq situation "This wouldn't of happened under Gore".

I can understand that view Net...really I can and I respect that. I was not 'condemning', per se', your view nor your opinion but I was questioning it. In respect to "this not happening under Gore," I'll reserve that comment based on one defining factor: Gore was, indeed, not President when the Iraq situation occurred and to make such an assumption that "this wouldn't have happened" under his "watch" is reserved for speculation.

I do respect your opinion and I do apologize if, in any way, I over stepped my bounds in responding to you as I did.

regards
seekerof

[Edited on 14-9-2003 by Seekerof]

Show me one other country that is as obsessed about their flag as America is....

But yes, you can wave your flag as much as you want
Hurrah for America !!

Originally posted by Langolier
Why cant Americans wave their flags if they want to? I dont consider myself and 'average American' however I take offense to your words because I know "average Americans" and they are nice people. They have every right to live how they want to live. Define "normal", how do you know that your way is the right way? or the 'normal' way?

Originally posted by Netchicken
Show me one other country that is as obsessed about their flag as America is....

But yes, you can wave your flag as much as you want
Hurrah for America !!

Originally posted by Langolier
Why cant Americans wave their flags if they want to? I dont consider myself and 'average American' however I take offense to your words because I know "average Americans" and they are nice people. They have every right to live how they want to live. Define "normal", how do you know that your way is the right way? or the 'normal' way?

Exactly. Explain to me whats wrong with that? I dont see why it is bad for Americans to wave thier flags in the face of 9/11. Or before for that matter.

Originally posted by Langolier
Exactly. Explain to me whats wrong with that? I dont see why it is bad for Americans to wave thier flags in the face of 9/11. Or before for that matter.

Oh no ... this could become very long and tedious

Other countries have more homogenous populations than America.

The populations can traditionally define themselves by their nationality on more levels. For example,

Australains know they are Australains because they eat vegemite, wear thongs, have barbies, lose at rugby, and have funny accents.

British know they are british because they all have a miserable climate, eat chips, complain about everything, and drink warm beer. These national charactoristics serve to give each population its distinct identity.

America doesn't have that, it needs something else to define it, and the flag serves that purpose. So you can have a whole bunch of sub populations totally diverse but they are all american because they wave their flag, and paste it all over any surface that will hold it. Your country NEEDS that as a tool to define who you are.

No problem with that at all. But it can look silly to the rest of the world.

Originally posted by Netchicken
America doesn't have that, it needs something else to define it, and the flag serves that purpose. So you can have a whole bunch of sub populations totally diverse but they are all american because they wave their flag, and paste it all over any surface that will hold it. Your country NEEDS that as a tool to define who you are.

No problem with that at all. But it can look silly to the rest of the world.

Well you've got every right to think its "silly". I dont see how its any more or less silly a way to identify yourself than losing at rugby or complaining about everything. Its how we identify ourselves. Its the only real thing that can apply to everyone here. Since we all eat different foods and live different lifestyles.

Originally posted by Leveller
I'm pretty sure that, looking at the average US citizen, the US would never survive on it's own. If you could survive on your own without leeching off the rest of us - then go for it. But the fact is that we have the money and the resources that you need and you just can't live without in The Rest of the World. You need to sell to make money to buy your TVs with and you need to spend your money on Japanese cars (let's face it - yours are crap).
Honestly - do you think that you can live without your market?

I'm pretty sure that, looking at the average Israeli citizen, Israel would never survive on it's own.

Let's face it, without US support of Israel, less terrorism.

Originally posted by Leveller
Do you think that the only reason they don't like you is because you have armed presence overseas? Or because you meddle?

Actually the only ennemy of america is terrorism, and the reasons for this are the troops stationned in Saudi and the support of Israel.

According to the fact that Bin Laden is responsible of 9/11.

[Edited on 14-9-2003 by Salem]

This thread has certainly gone in a new direction. Why shouldn't Americans wave their chinese manufactured flags? Why shouldn't Americans paste a 4 foot flag on the back of their SUV? It is what it is. It represents conquest by blood. Does that 45 year old soccer mom realize this? No. And who's there to tell her? CNN? HA! God forbid the coked out old hag research how many lives were lost to aquire those 50 stars.

The whole thing is a setup.

When you really look at it though only 105 million out of 205 million voters actually voted in 2000. I guess those 100 million are the only ones in the world that realize that voting in America is meaningless. Europeans haven't even figured that out yet.

So you see why our fake *ss leaders are still nice to us? They know there are a lot of Americans that are smart and are waking up. But I'm thinking it's too late. And America is the next Nazi Germany. Guess who will be safe from the gustapo? You got it, the sheeple. And when the smart ones are gone who's going to be there to stop America from doing what Nazi Germany couldn't? Is there anyone in the world that could stop a Nazi America? Didn't think so.

Good luck though. It's going to be a fun ride.