Is America in a no win situation in the world?

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posted on Sep, 13 2003 @ 08:20 AM
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What do I mean. I seem to hear the world talking out of both sides of it's mouth. For example in Somalia and Liberia, the US were slow to act and get involved, and many complained that they weren't involved and should have gotten in there and helped and been an influence.

Yet in many countries they are telling the US to leave them alone. We see this in the Arab nations. America goes in and frees the Iraqi's (and I recognize this is a byproduct of the US ulterior motives for going in there) and everyone tells the US to leave them alone and let them suffer.

So, I see this and just raise my hands up in the air and wonder. What is the US to do? It seems they are in a no win situation. Are they really in a no win situation?




posted on Sep, 13 2003 @ 08:24 AM
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First of all, the best thing to do in any situation if you have problems of your own is to not get involved in other people's problems. The U.S. has not been following this way of life. If you go into a situation under any pretense and find you have strong opposition, your best bet is to just leave or face continued consequences from your presence.

The U.S. brings these things upon itself. They are definitely in a no-win situation when it comes to matters such as these.



posted on Sep, 13 2003 @ 08:32 AM
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Problem is,it isn't the citizen's fault that the governments are idiots.

The Constitution was written to keep what is happening right now form happenig like it is right now.(they obviously pay no attention to that little detail anymore.)

I think the american public has been slumbering for too long.

I just hope that it isn't too late for us to wake up and fix what the government messed up.

Isolationist,separatist=GOOD.



posted on Sep, 13 2003 @ 08:33 AM
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Yes you are, you should (the US) leave the rest of the world alone..
and if you fail to do that, the rest of the world will take gigantic dump on you.

What is America: 250-300 million people?
Rest of the world: 6000 million.



posted on Sep, 13 2003 @ 02:46 PM
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I think an isolationist policy would be fine and dandy. No matter how a county beggs for our help I say screw em. It IS a no-win situation. Unless we pull out of the game alltogether.



posted on Sep, 13 2003 @ 02:54 PM
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An isolationist policy would totally screw the US.
It needs resources and trade from the Rest of the World and it could never survive without affecting the real world anyway!!!

But let's say that it could survive. Do you think the militants, fanatics and fundamentalists are just going to sit there and let the US hum along on it's own merry way?
If you do, you're living a pipe dream.
Once you have something good there will ALWAYS be others who either want to destroy it or take it for themselves.

The US can win the War on Terrorism if it's people are firmly behind the principle. It doesn't matter who the government is - this is as much a Democrat war as a Republican one and as much a Western war as an American one.

Those in the US who just sit there and say "Let's do nothing because everyone will hate us otherwise" would probably have said "Why do the Japanese hate us? Let's do nothing" after Pearl Harbor.



posted on Sep, 13 2003 @ 02:57 PM
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The problem is that America is not in a no win situation. America always wins, and always comes out on top and at an advantage. If they didn't they wouldn't get involved. People in the rest of the world do not like the way America tends to look after it's own interests. Obviously a hypocritical view as those who seek American help are acting in their own interests.

Part of the problem is that nobody else has the power to do what America does, and that nobody is really capable of doing what is asked of the US.



posted on Sep, 13 2003 @ 03:00 PM
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The US is in a no-win situation because the government has initiated a culture of "Me First", "Me Best" and "Me Bigger Than You". And whats worse is, we are in the situation where the more the US government screws things up, the more screwed up the entire world becomes. Lose-Lose situation



posted on Sep, 13 2003 @ 03:04 PM
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Originally posted by Leveller
An isolationist policy would totally screw the US.
It needs resources and trade from the Rest of the World and it could never survive without affecting the real world anyway!!!


No one is talking about ending economic trade. We are talking about ending our PERMANENT military presence in countries across the world, and pursuing a policy of non-aggression and non-interference except when in complaince with U.N. regulations, the U.S. Constitution, and deemed thoroughly necessary. Military, not economic isoloationism.

"Equal and exact justice to all men, of whatever state or persuasion, religious or political; peace, commerce, and honest friendship with all nations,entangling alliances with none; the support of the State governments in all their rights, as the most competent administrations for our domestic concerns, and the surest bulwarks against anti-republican tendencies; the preservation of the general government in its whole constitutional vigour, as the sheet anchor of our peace at home and safety abroad."

Thomas Jefferson



posted on Sep, 13 2003 @ 03:31 PM
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Originally posted by Sanders


No one is talking about ending economic trade. We are talking about ending our PERMANENT military presence in countries across the world, and pursuing a policy of non-aggression and non-interference except when in complaince with U.N. regulations




Jefferson wrote those words for his time.

As for keeping the US oar in other countries economies yet not taking part in military ops? Get real dude. You've got to guard the money!!!
If you've got a bank with no guards, it will get robbed!!!

And the US is such a major player. By playing around in other countries economies, it will affect all aspects of those countrie's societies. They're hardly going to trade with you on such a one sided playing field are they? They're hardly going to let you leech from their societies whilst they get no safeguards in return. There would be revolutions, unrest and turmoil everywhere. Every crackpot group would be flying jets into US interests. You guys would get the blame for even more!!!!
You can't have your cake and eat it without affecting others.
And what about UN treaties like Kyoto? It's OK to say you will adhere to UN regulations but what is to stop the Rest of the World enacting regualtion after regulation that directly harms US interests? Are you gonna comply then?
The only way you can become isolationist is to stop trading with the outside world and cut off all ties. Including economic.

And that ain't gonna happen. Whine all you like. You need them as much as the need you - if not more.



posted on Sep, 13 2003 @ 03:57 PM
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Originally posted by Leveller
Jefferson wrote those words for his time.


He wrote those words for his country. They apply just as well today as they ever have.


Originally posted by Leveller
As for keeping the US oar in other countries economies yet not taking part in military ops? Get real dude. You've got to guard the money!!!
If you've got a bank with no guards, it will get robbed!!!


What is our "oar" doing in other country's economies? They can guard their own money. We don't need to be meddling around in the financial affairs of other countries. You don't see me sticking my hand in your wallet do you?


Originally posted by Leveller
And the US is such a major player. By playing around in other countries economies, it will affect all aspects of those countrie's societies.


Um... yeah. This is why we *shouldn't* be "playing around" in their economies.


Originally posted by Leveller
They're hardly going to trade with you on such a one sided playing field are they? They're hardly going to let you leech from their societies whilst they get no safeguards in return. There would be revolutions, unrest and turmoil everywhere. Every crackpot group would be flying jets into US interests. You guys would get the blame for even more!!!!


I don't know where to start. Countries trade and exchange goods for economic gain. I don't know what "one-sided playing field" you're talking about. We need certain products and services from one country and they need others from us. They are ideally exchanged in mutually beneficial circumstances. No one "leeches" anything. However, when one goes in and attacks and invades for economic gain, such as our oil exploits in Iraq, THIS is what breeds hate and terrorism. Yes, that is called leeching. And yes, it is causing crackpots to crash jets. Good job... I'm glad you can see it.


Originally posted by Leveller
You can't have your cake and eat it without affecting others.


Once again, not sure what you're talking about. Maybe in your limited view of reality there's no such thing as mutually beneficial trade on benevolent terms. Well, there is, and it is quite easily obtainable.


Originally posted by Leveller
And what about UN treaties like Kyoto? It's OK to say you will adhere to UN regulations but what is to stop the Rest of the World enacting regualtion after regulation that directly harms US interests? Are you gonna comply then?


I'm not sure what this has to do with anything. The Kyoto was a commitment that leaders across the world agreed to with the idea of bettering the planet for everyone. This really has nothing to do with anything.


Originally posted by Leveller
The only way you can become isolationist is to stop trading with the outside world and cut off all ties. Including economic.


Wrong. Do you see France or Germany or Sweden or Switzerland stirring up # across the globe and stationing their troops in sovereign nations? Attacking other countries for resources? Toppling governments and political figures for economic or political gain? Hardly. Are they successful first world countries? Yes.

Costa Rica has NO standing army. Are they a successful nation? Very much so. Are they getting attacked by terrorists? No. Do they import and export peacefully, with mutually beneficial results? Yes. Every single day.

I rest my case.



posted on Sep, 13 2003 @ 04:27 PM
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Leveler,

yes, the US COULD live in isolation. It would require a massive change in our who system, a massive change in how we operate. But it could be done, and SHOULD be done.

First step is getting off Mideast oil dependance. Thats the big killer. Next step is bring manufacturing back to the US, or simply re instating it. lessen our imports. produce for ourselves. Bring all forces back home. Bring our interests back home. Once we bring our interests back home, we will not need troops to guard them. They will be here guarding thier homeland where they belong and where they WANT to be. Less involvement in world affairs, cutting off economic aid period.

let the world deal with its own stupid messes. Massacres, geneocide, I dont care. Let those countries deals with those issues. Im tired of babysitting idiots in the Blakans, middle east, africa, or asia who cant #ing pull thier stupid heads out of thier asses and get with the program. It is NOT in our interests to stick our nsoe there, its in THIER interests. Even that is debatable.

The US looks out for its own interests. OF COURSE! Who elses interests should we be looking out for? I wasnt aware that we were supposed to be the worlds gentle benefactor. Were a country. We have interests we need to look out for. Were not doing it. See isolation. THATS our best interest.

What happens to the rest of the world after a full US pullout is not my concern, thats thiers. I dont even believe in the UN. UN bad. US should simply pull out of UN on its way out of the world. Screw NATO, screw UN, screw screw screw them all. NATO is outdated, the cold war is over. Europe will be happier once US military leaves, and American soldiers will be even HAPPIER!

As to what the rest of the world thinks, I stopped caring long ago except when certain attiudes threaten our security. The rest of the worlds opinion of what we should be doing does not count. We need to come back home and build up here.



posted on Sep, 13 2003 @ 05:48 PM
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You are both dreamers.

Your people could never give up their luxuries. You use more resources than the Rest of the World put together. Do you think you would be prepared to live without them?

I'm pretty sure that, looking at the average US citizen, the US would never survive on it's own. If you could survive on your own without leeching off the rest of us - then go for it. But the fact is that we have the money and the resources that you need and you just can't live without in The Rest of the World. You need to sell to make money to buy your TVs with and you need to spend your money on Japanese cars (let's face it - yours are crap).
Honestly - do you think that you can live without your market?

You suck up more oil than everyone else. You use more power than everyone else. You are a society of waste.
Do you think GWB's Texas is going to supply you with all the oil that you need?

Sure, pull out of NATO, pull out of the UN. Pull out of every international group you can think of. Do you reckon that once you're on the outside of the World you will be able to stop every single one of those who want to destroy you? You think that just because you don't have an armed presence, they won't see you as a threat.

There are those out there that see the US people as "godless". It doesn't matter what you do or where you go - until you believe in their God you are only fit to be destroyed by them.

So go ahead. Take your finger off the pulse. Take all of your defences to your own borders. And whilst you're doing that, your enemies will be able to grow unhindered. Or do you expect us to stop them for you? You will have to turn your country into a prison. Nobody will be allowed in and nobody out. Everyone whom you don't know will be a potential enemy. The very control that you scream about will come crashing down on your head with a vengeance.

You would get eaten alive from without and within.



posted on Sep, 13 2003 @ 06:08 PM
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You missed the whole point leveler.

The key word here is CHANGE. the entire way we live would have to change, our economics, our society MASSIVE change. But it can be done.

Corn we grow enough for fuel. TVs can be built here. Society will have to change. the economy will have to change. We shall have to make massive readjustiments everywhere. But it can be done.

Americans have a choice: give up thier excessive luxuries now and live a more resonable, balanced life, or have this lifestyle ripped from underneath them when the US collapses from its own excessive weight.

Americans can change, because they have in the past, and adapt to another way of life. We have done it several times in the last century.

If we work it right, we shall not have to depend on foreign resources. We shall have enough ehre to provide. Feeding our population will be no problem, since we export so much damn food.

Our enemies would grow weaker through isolation, because, without us to unite them against us, they would return to killing each other off. And since we actually have or continue to fund our enemies generously through aid and trade, our enemies would have to find new hosts to parasite off of.

Since when has Europe fought off our enemies in the past? last time I checked, we got pulled into two wars over there, creating for us new enemeis that never existed before.

Bush wont be in power forever, thus, his adminstration is only a concern now. Americans before 9/11 were favoring more isolationist tendancies anyway. The 90's made alot of people start wanting less involvement in the world. especially the mess in the Balkans.

We must ebcome more efficent, more self sufficent in all our needs. New energy must be utilized. Petroleum needs to be moved away from.

When America was isolationist, she had no enemies, except for interferance and manipulations through banking and foreign powers. We were still young and an undeveloped country with little means of defense. Our only problems were with Mexico.

Now that we are a world power, the whole world slowly unites against us. When we are out of the picture, they will have no big satan to curse for interference. They will no longer have anything really to unify themselves, so they will return to infighting again, and start thier own warfare back up. Not my concern. So long as they keep it to thier corner of the world, then they can do whatever they want.

You stay on your side, well stay on ours. Sound policy if I ever heard of it.



posted on Sep, 13 2003 @ 06:29 PM
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Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
You missed the whole point leveler.

The key word here is CHANGE. the entire way we live would have to change, our economics, our society MASSIVE change. But it can be done.




No, I understand your point.
But there is a major problem. You're talking about regressing. Without the resources and the money that comes in from outside, your society will regress - maybe not intellectually, but economically and socially.
What do you think will happen outside? Europe will have the resources that you control now.
Europe already finds it a lot easier at integrating nations and it's never going to have the problems that you face now. You will be left behind both economically and socially. You might have the resources to survive - but that's all you will do. You will never flourish as you have done by trading and taking from the Rest of The World.

Do you think your people could live like that? Dude, you're not even united when you've got luxury!!!! What the hell are you gonna be like when you have to work for a living and you see those outside your borders doing better. What happens when you're not Numero Uno??? You reckon that you guys could live with that?

You think that your enemies will fight themselves when you're not around?
Do you think that the only reason they don't like you is because you have armed presence overseas? Or because you meddle? No!!! They don't like you because you are infidels. You have no right to breath the air of this planet. It is their duty to wipe you out. They've seen your culture, your people, your power. It's way too late in the day for you to say sorry and turn tail.
And just because you hide doesn't mean that they're going to forget about you.
History says the opposite. Without keeping an eye on them, they will unite, become stronger. You are never going to be too far away for them to hit at. It's not like the old days - a few miles of ocean can be easily traversed. Or do you expect your enemies to say "OK, the Yanks have pulled out. Let's call it quits"? It ain't gonna happen. Hiding behind your own borders will be all you can do. And if you've got to stop these people who want to hurt you from coming in, then you're equally going to have to stop people from going out. You'll be a society of prisoners.

Isolationism won't work on so many levels. Your own people won't be able to accept it and your enemies won't care.

If you could stay on your side and they could stay on their it would be perfect. But there are always going to be those of them who want to come over to your side to hurt you. The only way you can prevent this is by dealing with them. Burying your head in the sand will only make it worse.



posted on Sep, 13 2003 @ 06:31 PM
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Skadi, I think full economic isolation would be a little extreme and unnecessary. What harm would there be in importing coffee from Columbia and cars from Japan, while exporting some of our products to other countries? This is a much better way to do business rather than exporting weapons to Israel and funding dictators in the middle east. Like everything else, economic trade is neither good nor evil, it's all in how you do it.



posted on Sep, 13 2003 @ 06:35 PM
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Originally posted by Leveller
Do you think that the only reason they don't like you is because you have armed presence overseas? Or because you meddle? No!!! They don't like you because you are infidels. You have no right to breath the air of this planet. It is their duty to wipe you out. They've seen your culture, your people, your power.


I believe you've been listening to too much of George W Bush, as these statements are patently false. How many terrorists do you know of who were running around prior to our involvement in world affairs in WWI?



posted on Sep, 13 2003 @ 06:39 PM
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I don't understand how anyone could think that there would be any regression involved with isolationism in the US.
Morally this country is more bankrupt than financially,a little hard work won't kill you,but the amount of work we have to do to just get by right now will,the whole population of the US is suffering so that a few rich guys can get richer off of the rest of the world.
If you are young you probably don't see it yet,but you will when you get older,and you will hope it changes.
The US needed immigration when it was developing way back when,but not any more.
The US doesn't need anything from the rest of the world,all the resources we need are right here,waiting to be harvested and put to use.
We have just become lazy.
This country is STILL the least densely populated land mass on earth,excepting of course,places that are just a hunk of useless waste,like saudi arabia....



posted on Sep, 13 2003 @ 06:42 PM
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Originally posted by Sanders
I believe you've been listening to too much of George W Bush, as these statements are patently false. How many terrorists do you know of who were running around prior to our involvement in world affairs in WWI?



You're going back a century. Your enemies had no technology. You hadn't even physically discovered them!!!
Move forward in time to your dabble with isolationism. Remember a little thing called Pearl Harbor?



posted on Sep, 13 2003 @ 06:58 PM
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Ahem, Leveler. Americans DO work for a living. In fact, we work some of the longest hours for the least benefits in the Industiralized world. Unlike Europe, we dont get vacations, sometimes we get healthcare, few other fringe benefits, few holidays and days off, little sick leave, and dont get paid all that much. You fall prey to the assumption that most Americans are well off working fat jobs for fat pay. There are many like me who work lesser jobs, drive beat up old cars, and have very little expendable wealth.

Regression? depnds on your definition of the word. Were not going to be third world. But of course, this rampant fat matrerialism and how many toys you own has to go. People dont need 5 SUVs and flat screen TVs in every room of the house.

Isolation requires us first of all to take this absurd chunk of cash we spend on foreign aid and occupation, and spend it on devlopment of new technology and the like. It will require all military be removed from foreign lands. Dimplomcay must remain neutral. defense beffed up signifigantly at our own borders. Switzerland had little problems remaining neutral for centuries. We can do it too without having world banking in our country.

Cars switched from petroleum birning hogs into ethnol or other feul consumers. With adequate funding and emphasis on devlopment of new sources of energy, we could become self sufficent. Conservation incentives and measures introduced. california once was a very big hog of ebergy. After months of blackouts and hiked up rates, Califorinians suddenly became conservers by necessity. I went there a year ago to visit my family. My reletives chewed my ass for leaving lights on, cooking food when I didnt have to, ect. Americans will have to learn conservation whether they want to or not, because someday they will be forced to regardless out of necessity.

Europe is full of infidels too. You think Europe will go marching in the middle east and take what they want, and seize the resources? You need a military for that. is Europe gonna have to divert money to build up its onw military? Do you think that they will negotiate with you once we are gone? Youre infidels too. And you did engage in the crusades. the Muslim world has not forgotten.

of course we will continue to be hated once weve puleld out. So? With better security, and without the US funding thier govornments and economies, they are gonna have one hell of a time comming to get us. With better security they will have even less sucess.

Before we arrived in saudi,the Iraqis, iranians, ect were all at each others throats, either militarily or diplomatically. Everyone hated saddam Hussein. Now that we are there, they have forgetten briefly thier hatred, and supported the defense of Iraq from American agression. Once we are gone, yes, they will return to fighting amongst themselves. Some will still hate us and want to come after us. But they will no longer have nearly the support and unity they once had.

preventing suspicious entry into this country should be something that is taken care of regardless. If we became Isolationist, we would have to screen them better. who enters, who leaves. leaving the country wouldnt necessarily be so tough, but getting in would. Since Sep 11, many people are in favor of this.

Europe would be forced to assume the mantle of world leader for a time, if China or japan dont yank it away. Even Europe might not be able to handle it much. To be on top, you need a military. Is Europe gonna make the sacrifice of building up a huge military machine? The costs? Already your social system is heavyily taxed.

Theres little fear of Americans becoming envious of Europe. I have been over there. even with your higher standard of living, your society and govornment are suffocating. Nothing is worth that cause. if thats what you call social advancement, Ill stay in the dark ages, thank you much
.

Americans will, whther they want to or not, lose our excesses. Regression you say? Ill tell you this, what is better: to be a rich man with AIDS, or a blue collar worker with full health?

id rather take a cut in our wealth in sacrifice for self sufficency, freedom from foreign entanglements, and stability of our country, then I would to live a short time at the top, only to crumble to ashes like Rome did.

Sanders, trade wouldnt necessarily stop, but we really need to move away from foreign imports, especially with our huge trade defecit. We need to make stuff here, period. We feed potential enemies like China and make them stronger by sending manufacturing there.





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