Open Letter to Amnesty International on the Iraqi Constitution

Originally posted by Souljah
Fine - suit yourself!

No problem.

I bet there are some True alegations against your country men, but HEH they don't get reported either.

I suppose there are a few , frankly those that do are shameful and well dont get tolerated by the MOD.

Well - if your fellow countryman (the UK with mister Tony in charge) are the best allies of the US, then its pretty much obvious Who your enemy is, we don't have to "define" anything.

Thats not true.
Argentina in 1980s was UK's enemy but not americas.

Yet again we need to define who the enemy is..

Choices based on What? On some Lies? Some rambling of a crazed US president?

On intel supplied from most of the world, unless your denying that most of the worlds intelligence services believed what we believed?

Also, BTW, there was WMD's there just in VERY small amounts, forgotten cahes or being destroyed.

And do you still think that? Do you still think that Saddam was a "massive threat to the world peace"? Do you still think he had WMDs? I don't. You know WHO is the Massive Threat to the World Peace? Yea, you guessed it. The "Coalition of the Willing".

I still believe he was.
BTW, everyone is a threat to world peace, just some are bigger than others.

How do you know that? Were you there? How can you be so Sure of that? Are you an Iraqi? Did you see that with your own eyes?

How do I know?
I've spoken, worked and lived with UK troops.
I've also read and researched about iraq.
We respect civilians and we do not use them as shields.
Period.

Hmmmm... How come that this LAW can define that Saddam was breaking it, but it can not "define" the US and UK breaking it? Strange...

Simply, I am not denying we broke the law to go into iraq.
But just because we broke one doesnt mean we continuely break the rules.

DU is a Radioactive Ammunition (the word DEPLETED means, that it has been used once, and that it was severly radioactive). The problem with it is, that its an extremly great material for ammunitions because of its penetration capabilites and no other element in the Period scale is capable of doing that. And there is alot of it laying around. Chea, Effective - Who CARES if its radioactive! I am sure that veterans from first Gulf war that have the so-called "gulf-war-syndrome" will have alot to say about it. But ofcourse - you belive the Pentagon and Downing street. Fine. Belive them then.

Yet again, your going off topic, you want to complain about DU go ahead.
DU amunition is simply ONE FORM of chemicals used in combat.
Every weapon is chemical, unless of course your trying to break the laws of physics and chemistry?

Well - you would not have this problem if the invasion never occured. And I wonder who used this words: "Bring It On!". Hmmmm.... Your Friend and Ally?

Oh so its the old "you wouldnt have the problem if you didnt.." Argument huh?
Guess what that doesnt fly with me.
Yet again, show me the difference between a civilian and a REGULAR SQUAD LEVEL insurgent or "resistance" fighter.

Again - HOW can you be so SURE of that?

Because the SAS is not designed for that kind of combat and I think I might know about my countries own damm military thank you.

Who did the Iraqi police catch then in Basra?

Two SAS men in a car driving with survielance gear, but wait ofcourse that makes em bad guys right'?

Agents 008 and 009 with their Pants down?

No.

Please! Your defence for the Military is just too obvious. An ex Soldier, aren't you?

Nope, 17.
I'm SCC, and also I defend the military because they defend me.

I find it interestin that you KNOW what happend and you are so Sure that your precious armed forces did not do Anything wrong - all the Crap that happens is a work of Terrorist, right? I wonder where you get that information. You work in Defence Ministry?

I find it interesting you wont stay on topic...

The military makes mistakes and people inside the military ethier make mistakes or do wrong.
The military makes ammends for those mistakes and wrong doings and punishes those needed.
Also I am not in the defend buisness, I work for the merchant navy. Civilian shipping.
ETO if you must ask.

DU is not JUST another METAL - when it Explodes it releases a Deadly Dust. You sound so Sure that it is Harmless - why not go to the battlefield and inhale the air in Fallujah after it has been bombed? You wanna check what DU does to the Human Body after it Enters?

I never said it was harmless, not at all.
Want to see what a 7.62mm sniper round will do the human flesh?
I've seen what a 22 air rifle can do to human skin with just a piece of rubber , and I've seen what the weapons used in iraq can do, the rifles at least.
Its not nice and its certanly on the same level as DU.

Do you know what will happen to a person who has several mg of lead stuck in thier major organs?

*cough*BULL*cough*cough* - Different? How? Because UK have another Accent to English? You think the Insurgents look at you "Differently"? You think when they see the UK Uniform they say: "OH WAIT, don't shoot him, they did not allow Iraqi Musems to be robbed! They are on the same sute, but they are "Different" from the US Troops."

Thats your opinion, only a fool would not notice the difference between the UK an US soldiers.
A) they fight differently.
B) they dress differently
C) they talk diferently
D) They tend to think differently

Its pure ignorance on the insurgents and your part.

So you are saying that you are ALSO under the UK & US Propaganda machine?

Yes and no, I watch it everyday along with middle eastern propaganda.
Nothing is unbiased, its all grey.

You read the News right?

BBC - UK troops in Iraqi torture probe

Guardian - UK forces taught torture methods

Yet again, its taught to the troops, it was never said to be used by UK troops.
Yet again though, how do you define torture?
By the dictionary or by what YOU know?

Why MUST they solve the Problems of the Middle East? Why must they solve the problems of Iraq? What makes these people so Special and the Africans Not? Do you think, that if in Sudan they found WMD's, UK and US forces would go there and "Liberate" these people? What do they need to do, so that it would get your Precious attention? Isn't Dying in Tens of Thousands a DAY Enough for you? You Friggin Imperialists!

Ok you dont want our help fine, but dont you complain.
I'lll hold you to your word on this forum next time an atrocity happens.
Dont ask the west for help, dont even complain about it cause frankly it would only show who is the hypocrit here.
We're the only ones that seem to care, THATS why we do it.

The UN cant decide because leaders are unwilling to lose face by having people killed under thier command while doing what "could" be a good thing.

But heh, yet again lets just blame us, its easier to scape goat and complain than it is to actually think of what to do.

Originally posted by IAF101
Firstly, all of which you refer to is mere speculation and wild conspiracy, just because people write about it on the internet doesnt make it true.
Also as this is a conspiracy site I guess you could continue to delude yourself like such but in the real world you'd go to the nut house.

Second, none of these so called wild accusations have been proved and until they are proved they are mere fiction. That is the way it works with the rational but I cant expect that from you

Well first of all, I am not that Naive as the Majority of the People - especially your kind ones. You would eat everything that your goverment serves you. I don't. I have seen quiet a few documentaries and have read quiet a few books on that topic and I am sure that it was not a work of some crazed muslim terrorists. And it goes hand in hand with your presidents agenda of World Domination - so ofcourse he will "burn down his Reichstag".

Or is it because "GOD TOLD HIM SO"?

America represents the best of Humanity, thats my opinion!

It Does? Really? Well MOST of this Planet does not Share your Opinion. Especially during this administration, which has proven numerous times that HUMANITY is something unknown to them.

Which is pretty good I think, as morals are definitely required as are diplomatic skills and also the military.
Hey, we live by the NewYork minute, Gandhian approach doesnt exactly cut it in speed.

Maybe YOU like in a NewYork minute - but else in the world, time is not so important as in the "Civilized West". Why is the Military Budget record high, justl like in the days of Cold War? Care to explain that?

so now wanting to be the best is bad? Global Leadership doesnt mean enslaving the world, it means being the best in the world at what you do. Its one of those business lingos.

You bet its bad if you are Illegaly Invading other countries for corporate interersts. Hitler had that Idea once too - he called it the THIRD REICH. One People. One State. One Leadership. One Empire.

# because of Terrorism and an attack on American Soil.
#To ensure that fight against Terrorism is strong, a global effort and not by America unilateraly and again to safe gaurd america.
#A good deed. Saviours for people who are oppressed by tyrants

# Just as any rational nation would do- make friends and keep friends especially in a time of need.

Yea, when you can't find any more Excuses - use the word TERRORISM. You are so predictable - like your monkey of a president. And while you Rant about how "War on Terrorism" is GOOD for Mankind, warprofiteers get richer and they take the dollar from your pockets into theirs. Are you getting filthy rich right now? The problem here is, the the MAIN Tyrannt is your president and his corporate friends that create wars in order to make profit. Perod.

Firstly, I am not Aussie and secondly none of this has any PROOF ! Its all hearsay and speculation nothing concrete. Also if the liberals thought that this was a sham they would have taken it to the supreme court but they didnt because they knew they lost fair and square and no amount of whining is going to change that.

You sound like those Porch-Masons here on the Board, yelling all the time the word "PROOF!PROOF!PROOF!" - kind of Pathetic. I have given you 3 links, and none of them for you is Good Enough. Its funny, because you would not find ANY of my links or statements as Proof, simply because I have showed them to you. We are not moving an Inch togather here. You claim yours, and I claim mine.

Maybe thats why we defeated it, I dont remember reading in any history book about how Slovenians fought bravely against the Italians?

Yes we did. We put up a Great Fight, but you wouln't know anything about it anyway. Wait a minute! Did you say BOOK? You actually READ Books? No Way!

Fascism has not 14 but 1 point and that is total and absolute authority of a few individuals.

Here is one more Mussolini Quote for ya to Chew on:

"Fascism should be called CORPORATIVISM, because it is the merge of the State and the Corporation!"

Sound Familiar? *cough*Halliburton*cough*

So a natural disaster has taken away our rights and liberties?

Cant you find any thing even remotely logical to counter a statement ? Guess not!

Remember that old Lady that was so brutally disarmed by the Guards in New Olreans? Her Rights were trampeled on faster then you can say "G'Day!". What makes you think that they will "Skip" your doorbell? Because you are a diehard republican?

Outer states ? like as in Alaska or hawai ? what outer states?
I think you mean "backward European state" right?

Ah! Again your petty insults that only show one thing: your ARRGOANCE and Poor knowledge of World History and your total DISRESPECT for anything that does not say "Made in USA". You know that you are not making friends with this Right?

You dont have to be so overtly Jelous Souljah! You could kind of hide it or something

Jealous? Please! Come and Visit the Country I live in and then talk about Jealousy! As far as I know, ALL the people that visited Slovenia wanted to come back again or come back forever. But again, you would not nothing about it.

Their every thing? Thats the scientific explanation?

Souljah, are you in grade school ? A sonar is sound, it weakens as distance increases. Sonar is detectable by a few fish only and that too faintly unless they are real close.

Bottom line is that these New Great Sonars KILL THEM and the Navy does not care at all - like yourself. Will maybe an Article from Christian Science Monitor make this story more "real" for your delicate senses?

Also, the destruction of man is more important than forest. If the forest go and man survives then too bad but if man dies and the forests survive then its no point.

Apparently you are in Grade School - but actally every little kid knows that by killing OUR trees we are killing OURSELVES. No more rainforrest, no more mankind. Simple. What will you BREATH? Canned Air? Geez.

That means we need tobe cut some slack as well and more appreciation not slander and lies against us, support the US for it works for humanity and for the second part yes it is better for humanity, if we dont do it somebody has to do it, will YOU ?

Works for Huamnity?

What Pills are you on? Looks like you are Hallucinating.

Here is what your president had done for the Humanity:




Enjoy!



Patriotic Posters taken from www.whitehouse.org...

Originally posted by cjf
In regards to ‘these’ fourteen points which are so eagerly displayed...Blahblahblah!

Here is a Quote for You from the Link that you provided:

I want the Blackshirts to parade again in the Italian squares." Life is not that simple. Ur-Fascism can come back under the most innocent of disguises. Our duty is to uncover it and to point our finger at any of its new instances — every day, in every part of the world. Franklin Roosevelt's words of November 4, 1938, are worth recalling: "If American democracy ceases to move forward as a living force, seeking day and night by peaceful means to better the lot of our citizens, fascism will grow in strength in our land." Freedom and liberation are an unending task.

Yep. They sure are an Unending Task - ask your President.

Four More Wars, remember?

Originally posted by devilwasp
I suppose there are a few , frankly those that do are shameful and well dont get tolerated by the MOD.

Could it be that MoD is Hiding some of them from your own eyes?

Naaah! Where did you hear about goverments Lying?

In intel supplied from most of the world, unless your denying that most of the worlds intelligence services believed what we believed?

Also, BTW, there was WMD's there just in VERY small amounts, forgotten cahes or being destroyed.

Intel supplied from where? Mossad? Please, go and watch some of the Bush speeches before the Iraq Invasion: Saddam has Biological weapons, Saddam has Chemical weapons (sure, the US sold them to him!), Saddam has Nuclea weapons. Basicly the Administration was only looking for EXCUSES for war, not for Reasons.

I still believe he was.
BTW, everyone is a threat to world peace, just some are bigger than others.

I don't. I think that US and UK are the biggest threat to the World Peace since the days of Nazi's. Imperialism and Fascism has gotten a new face, this time more Deceptive then ever.

How do I know?
I've spoken, worked and lived with UK troops.
I've also read and researched about iraq.
We respect civilians and we do not use them as shields.
Period.

Meaing only that you are under their INFULENCE. You were not there. You have not seen ANYTHING. You don't know anything. You just know what your goverments tells you to know. And you belive that without a shadow of a doubt.

Simply, I am not denying we broke the law to go into iraq.
But just because we broke one doesnt mean we continuely break the rules.

Aha! So you ADMIT you broke the International Law by invading? What do you expect from the world then? To just sit and watch you illegaly occupying a soverign country?

Yet again, your going off topic, you want to complain about DU go ahead.
DU amunition is simply ONE FORM of chemicals used in combat.
Every weapon is chemical, unless of course your trying to break the laws of physics and chemistry?

No - DU was strictly forbidden by the UN, becaue it is breaking numerous Conventions and International Laws against Humanity. PERIOD.

Yet again, show me the difference between a civilian and a REGULAR SQUAD LEVEL insurgent or "resistance" fighter.

Insurgent is Armed.

Show me the Difference between an Iraqi civilan and a SAS Commanod working under False Flag operations, disguised in Arabic Clothing?

Two SAS men in a car driving with survielance gear, but wait ofcourse that makes em bad guys right'?

What did they have in the CAR?

Nope, 17.
I'm SCC, and also I defend the military because they defend me.

What 17? 17 years old? And whats SCC?
You feel secure with the military? You think they defend you?

The military makes mistakes and people inside the military ethier make mistakes or do wrong.

So, let's say they made a mistake and they god an order that you were a terrorist and they shot you in the head seven times. Would you still think that the miltiary was just "protecting you"?

I never said it was harmless, not at all.
Want to see what a 7.62mm sniper round will do the human flesh?
I've seen what a 22 air rifle can do to human skin with just a piece of rubber , and I've seen what the weapons used in iraq can do, the rifles at least.

You wanna breath the Air filled with poisonous DU dust for the rest of your life? You wanna have DU all over your body, coming from lungs to your kidneys, to your bones, slowly killing you? DU is not as Harmfull as you think it is. Its a New Weapon and the Long Term consequences have not been discovered YET - in time it will be shown what kind of effects DU has on human body. Bottom line is that, there is ALOT of this material laying around and that it is Perfect for ammunition - and that ALL the ARMY needs to know! Period.

Thats your opinion, only a fool would not notice the difference between the UK an US soldiers.
A) they fight differently.
B) they dress differently
C) they talk diferently
D) They tend to think differently

AGAIN - do you think an averege Iraqi Insurgents CARES for this 4 POINTS?

Yes and no, I watch it everyday along with middle eastern propaganda.
Nothing is unbiased, its all grey.

But you also agre that the Army must Always protect itself and always make the story White for themselves, and never report the Black side?

Yet again, its taught to the troops, it was never said to be used by UK troops.
Yet again though, how do you define torture?
By the dictionary or by what YOU know?

International LAW Defines Torture against the Prisoners of War and the Law is very detailed about how they should and should NOT be treated!

We're the only ones that seem to care, THATS why we do it.

Such "Care" you have shown in Iraq yes. Just brings tears to my eyes.

Originally posted by Souljah
Could it be that MoD is Hiding some of them from your own eyes?

Naaah! Where did you hear about goverments Lying?

No it couldnt.
The MOD has MP's which investigate itself ruthlessly and efficiently.

Intel supplied from where? Mossad? Please, go and watch some of the Bush speeches before the Iraq Invasion: Saddam has Biological weapons, Saddam has Chemical weapons (sure, the US sold them to him!), Saddam has Nuclea weapons. Basicly the Administration was only looking for EXCUSES for war, not for Reasons.

Hey I am not interested in BUSH, I am insterested in blair and what the rest of the world thought not just the US.

I don't. I think that US and UK are the biggest threat to the World Peace since the days of Nazi's. Imperialism and Fascism has gotten a new face, this time more Deceptive then ever.

Then your thinking is flawed, in my opinion.
You realise that the UK gave up imperialism quite some time ago?
You also realise that the UK is not facist.
But hey ofcourse terrorists with only the goal they want and a fanatical will are not threats ofcourse.

Meaing only that you are under their INFULENCE. You were not there. You have not seen ANYTHING. You don't know anything. You just know what your goverments tells you to know. And you belive that without a shadow of a doubt.

No, I read from both sides of the argument, its YOU who only believes the other side.
You believe what iraqis say without a shadow of a doubt as you call it.
Also I am not under thier influence, I was not there, I have not seen it with my own eyes but nethier have you.
But that doesnt mean I dont know anything.

Aha! So you ADMIT you broke the International Law by invading? What do you expect from the world then? To just sit and watch you illegaly occupying a soverign country?

Yeah we broke the law, seems only fair since everyone else does but we are held to different standards, isnt double standards fun?

No - DU was strictly forbidden by the UN, becaue it is breaking numerous Conventions and International Laws against Humanity. PERIOD.

As I said DU is just one form of chemical weapons , unless your trying to say that EVERY WEAPON doesnt break laws against humanity since ofcourse it doesnt treat others with respect.

Insurgent is Armed.

Civilians are armed to.

Show me the Difference between an Iraqi civilan and a SAS Commanod working under False Flag operations, disguised in Arabic Clothing?

Simple, SAS men do not commit false flag operations and wear arabic clothing only because the enemy does.
If they wear a distunguishable marker SAS men will to.
Also, the SAS is simply one of the SF units in the MOD but heh ofcourse no one knows this because its simpler to believe what the news tells us before researching.

What did they have in the CAR?

Survialance gear, but heh ofcourse you'll believe an iraqi policeman in a force infiltrated by murderers and thugs without any other evidence than his word over british officials with evidence.

What 17? 17 years old? And whats SCC?

17 years old.
Sea cadet corp, Im an LC in 135 unit.

You feel secure with the military? You think they defend you?

Yes I do, I know the military and I feel safe with them.
Yes I do, they do defend me.
I cant fight a suicide bomber but they can.

So, let's say they made a mistake and they god an order that you were a terrorist and they shot you in the head seven times. Would you still think that the miltiary was just "protecting you"?

If they "made a mistake" and shot me 7 times in the head because they thought I was a terrorist I would understand.
Hell do all teenagers know how fire 3 different rilfes, make a bomb, research weapons and research high velocity electromagnetic weapon systems?

You wanna breath the Air filled with poisonous DU dust for the rest of your life?

So your saying we're firing DU weapons everywhere, 365 days a year , 24 hours a day?
Wow now I know why the MOD is low on cash.

You wanna have DU all over your body, coming from lungs to your kidneys, to your bones, slowly killing you? DU is not as Harmfull as you think it is. Its a New Weapon and the Long Term consequences have not been discovered YET - in time it will be shown what kind of effects DU has on human body. Bottom line is that, there is ALOT of this material laying around and that it is Perfect for ammunition - and that ALL the ARMY needs to know! Period.

I've had lead dust in my lungs from shooting, handled lead for about what 3 years and been breathing in lead fumes from soldering for longer does that mean lead should be banned?
DU is a weapon, weapons are dangerous.
I am not saying its good but nethier is war good.
I am not saying its nice weapon but frankly nethier is using rape, murder, torture or terror as weapons good.

AGAIN - do you think an averege Iraqi Insurgents CARES for this 4 POINTS?

Well I think they would, if the average insurgent understood these 4 he would learn about his enemy, which helps you learn how to fight him and eventually kill him.

But you also agre that the Army must Always protect itself and always make the story White for themselves, and never report the Black side?

No, and they dont.

International LAW Defines Torture against the Prisoners of War and the Law is very detailed about how they should and should NOT be treated!

Laws are not about morals they are legality.
Do you think its moraly right that insurgents can rape and murder while UK soldeirs get killed and cant return fire?

Such "Care" you have shown in Iraq yes. Just brings tears to my eyes.

Oh yeah thats unbiased.
Mabye you can show me how the insurgents care about iraqi civilians when they commit crimes like this?

Ofcourse though thats an "accident" and should be listed as one but when UK or US soldiers make a mistake they are acused of warcrimes and called nazis.
Isnt the media war fun?

Mod Edit: Fixed Quote Tags.

[edit on 20/10/2005 by Mirthful Me]

Laws are not about morals they are legality.

Sorry kid, but every law (in theory) has to emrace at least a minimum of morality of society.

I suggest you read Sophocles' Antigone. A classic dilemma between morality and legality. It shows very well what happens when you follow the law to the letter and forget the moral obligation.

Originally posted by yanchek
Sorry kid, but every law (in theory) has to emrace at least a minimum of morality of society.

In theory doesnt equal in practice.

I suggest you read Sophocles' Antigone. A classic dilemma between morality and legality. It shows very well what happens when you follow the law to the letter and forget the moral obligation.

I've seen quite a few versions of something similar.
Thanks for the recomendation though.

Originally posted by Souljah
Here is a Quote for You from the Link that you provided:

What you have posted is correct and so you must have noticed….

The most noticeable indication a fascist alignment by a party or government is the separation and persecution of a particular class of people, (usually the bourgeois denying the proletariat) based loosely upon beliefs or some superficial endemic qualities.

Fascism has many forms and adheres to no constants. No government/political party is ever any one specific definable constant structure.

By the conventional academic definition of fascism (even by the bogus 14 points) the US would be considered much, much less fascist today in elements than say it would even in the recent past, 1940’s, 1950’s, 1960’s and early 1970’s.

Originally posted by Souljah
Yep. They sure are an Unending Task - ask your President.

Thank you for loosing the quotes on: President.

.

Originally posted by devilwasp
No it couldnt.
The MOD has MP's which investigate itself ruthlessly and efficiently.

Goverments do LIE you know - and Politicians also. Especially the Miltiary Branch of the Goverment - they have to make sure, that people Support the War (like yourself).

Hey I am not interested in BUSH, I am insterested in blair and what the rest of the world thought not just the US.

Well, you HAVE to be Interested in Bushl, becaue Blair is right behind him, doing everything he wants him to. Basicly meaning you are one, but in two different forms. If Bush would say: go and invade Iran tomorrow - Blair would do it. Just like with the Illegal Invason of Iraq - did it get support from the Rest of the World? Or just by UK?

Then your thinking is flawed, in my opinion.
You realise that the UK gave up imperialism quite some time ago?
You also realise that the UK is not facist.
But hey ofcourse terrorists with only the goal they want and a fanatical will are not threats ofcourse.

When did UK give up their Imperliasm? You know what I think? That UK is trying to maintain the little role it has in the World right now, to backup the US Empire, so it can again taste the sweet Imperliasm, it once made it Strong and Powerful. Is Nostalgia getting to you? Also facts are, that the Northern Atlatnic Oil Rigs are running Dangerously Low on Reserves - and where else to go and get some cheap oil, then in Middle East! Hell Yeah!

No, I read from both sides of the argument, its YOU who only believes the other side.
You believe what iraqis say without a shadow of a doubt as you call it.
Also I am not under thier influence, I was not there, I have not seen it with my own eyes but nethier have you.
But that doesnt mean I dont know anything.

I also READ both sides of the Argument - and do You belive the Other side too? Judging by your statements, you belive only 1 side - the Army side. IMHO you are under the influence of the Armed Forces and you are interested in them - maybe that's why you like Shooting (as stated in your little Biography). I don't like Shooting. I don't like the Army. I don't like Wars. I don't like anything to do with Weapons and Killing. Do You?

Yeah we broke the law, seems only fair since everyone else does but we are held to different standards, isnt double standards fun?

Sure it's fun - if you are playing the Role of the Winnder who gets to choose and say: " I can do that, and you CANT!". That is also called HYPOCHRISY. That's fun too, right?

As I said DU is just one form of chemical weapons , unless your trying to say that EVERY WEAPON doesnt break laws against humanity since ofcourse it doesnt treat others with respect.

Read:

In 1996 and 1997, the United Nations Human Rights Commission in Geneva, passed a resolution to ban the use of depleted uranium weapons. The Subcommission adopted resolutions which include depleted uranium weaponry amongst "weapons of mass and indiscriminate destruction, ... incompatible with international humanitarian or human rights law." (Secretary General's Report, 24 June 1997, E/CN. 4/Sub.2/1997/27)

A UN report of 2002 states that DU weapons also potentially breach each of the following laws: The Universal Declaration of Human Rights; the Charter of the United Nations; the Genocide Convention; the Convention Against Torture; the four Geneva Conventions of 1949; the Conventional Weapons Convention of 1980; and the Hague Conventions of 1899 and 1907. All of these laws are designed to spare civilians from unwarranted suffering in or after armed conflicts.

According to the UN, the resolutions in 1996-97 were passed because DU breaches several international laws concerning inhumane weapons: it is not limited in time or space to the legal field of battle, or to military targets; it continues to act after the war; it is "inhumane" by virtue of its ability to cause prolonged or long term death by cancer and other serious health issues, it causes harm to future civilians and passers by (including unborn children and those breathing the air or drinking water); and it has an "unduly negative" and long term effect on the natural environment and food chain.

en.wikipedia.org...

Civilians are armed to.

SAS Operatives are dressed as Civilans too.

Simple, SAS men do not commit false flag operations and wear arabic clothing only because the enemy does.
If they wear a distunguishable marker SAS men will to.
Also, the SAS is simply one of the SF units in the MOD but heh ofcourse no one knows this because its simpler to believe what the news tells us before researching.

Yes they do - and they were CAUGHT doing it.

And it is Simpler to just BELIVE what the MoD tell you it happend, then to think with Your Own Head and judge for Yourself.

Survialance gear, but heh ofcourse you'll believe an iraqi policeman in a force infiltrated by murderers and thugs without any other evidence than his word over british officials with evidence.

If Murderous Thugs can inflirtate Iraqi Police - so can SAS dress as civilans and go Undercover. How are the Iraqi Police supposed to know what are they? They Looked like "Terrorists" with all the Equipment, the Weapons and the Civilan Clothing? They are Lucky to be Alive.

[qoute]
Yes I do, I know the military and I feel safe with them.
Yes I do, they do defend me.
I cant fight a suicide bomber but they can.

I don't feel secure when the Military comes. It only means two things: there is going to be Shooting and People are going to Die. That does not make me feel safe, but it makes me feel Unsafe and Nervous.

If they "made a mistake" and shot me 7 times in the head because they thought I was a terrorist I would understand.

Even if you would be Innocent? Wouldn't you say they jumped some Conclusions and were, simply, "Trigger Happy"? Is Paranoia Patriotic these days?

Wow now I know why the MOD is low on cash.

MoD is NEVER low on cash.

I've had lead dust in my lungs from shooting, handled lead for about what 3 years and been breathing in lead fumes from soldering for longer does that mean lead should be banned?
DU is a weapon, weapons are dangerous.
I am not saying its good but nethier is war good.
I am not saying its nice weapon but frankly nethier is using rape, murder, torture or terror as weapons good.

Well if you would be Inhalind DU dust for 3 Years, I think you would start to have some serious medical Problems by now. You know why? Because DU is MUCH Worse then Lead and that's the whole problem here. Ofcourse the Army is saying "NOOOOO!" and denying everything - but still, DU does damage your body, much, MUCH worse then any other Material used for Ammunition. Period.

No, and they dont.

Yes they Do.

Laws are not about morals they are legality.

Why did they even Bother to Write down this Laws?
Once they work, and once they don't.
"It's BAD if Saddam kills People - but We can!"

Originally posted by Souljah
Goverments do LIE you know - and Politicians also.

That is true, the government do lie.

Especially the Miltiary Branch of the Goverment - they have to make sure, that people Support the War (like yourself).

No lieing gets them nowhere.
Half truths are the best weapons to win a mind.
BTW, I do support the war and I havent been "brainwashed" no more than you have.

Well, you HAVE to be Interested in Bushl, becaue Blair is right behind him, doing everything he wants him to.

Really?
Care to explain the EU then?

Basicly meaning you are one, but in two different forms. If Bush would say: go and invade Iran tomorrow - Blair would do it. Just like with the Illegal Invason of Iraq - did it get support from the Rest of the World? Or just by UK?

No blair isnt that stupid, thats just a very biased opinion.
Blair is no idiot and no "croney" he is simply not the best politition but he aint the worst.
The war got quite a few countries support or are you saying that the UK and the US are the only 2 countries with military troops in iraq?

When did UK give up their Imperliasm?

About the time of the american war of independance.
It showed we had gave up makeing takeing over more countries and the end of the british "empire" as we knew it.

You know what I think?

I dont care..

That UK is trying to maintain the little role it has in the World right now, to backup the US Empire, so it can again taste the sweet Imperliasm, it once made it Strong and Powerful. Is Nostalgia getting to you? Also facts are, that the Northern Atlatnic Oil Rigs are running Dangerously Low on Reserves - and where else to go and get some cheap oil, then in Middle East! Hell Yeah!

Oh really?
Nice opinion poorly facted.
There is no US empire since the US isnt in a position nor has the ability to do so.
The UK doesnt want imperialism, why try to take over the world when it just screws you over time and time again for everything and anything.
But heh then again its easier to blame the two "bad guys" than it is to think outside the box...

I also READ both sides of the Argument - and do You belive the Other side too?

I take both sides in and see what stays the same.

Judging by your statements, you belive only 1 side - the Army side. IMHO you are under the influence of the Armed Forces and you are interested in them - maybe that's why you like Shooting (as stated in your little Biography). I don't like Shooting. I don't like the Army. I don't like Wars. I don't like anything to do with Weapons and Killing. Do You?

A) I look at both sides and see whats true.
B) Why do people generalise and say simply "the army"? Oh wait its because there ignorant of the other forces.
C) I like shooting because well its fun, I dont like killing but I accept it needs to be done.

Sure it's fun - if you are playing the Role of the Winnder who gets to choose and say: " I can do that, and you CANT!". That is also called HYPOCHRISY. That's fun too, right?

Didnt I also say I was a hypocrit?
There are no winners and losers in war, only one side who was better off.

Read:

In 1996 and 1997, the United Nations Human Rights Commission in Geneva, passed a resolution to ban the use of depleted uranium weapons. The Subcommission adopted resolutions which include depleted uranium weaponry amongst "weapons of mass and indiscriminate destruction, ... incompatible with international humanitarian or human rights law." (Secretary General's Report, 24 June 1997, E/CN. 4/Sub.2/1997/27)

A UN report of 2002 states that DU weapons also potentially breach each of the following laws: The Universal Declaration of Human Rights; the Charter of the United Nations; the Genocide Convention; the Convention Against Torture; the four Geneva Conventions of 1949; the Conventional Weapons Convention of 1980; and the Hague Conventions of 1899 and 1907. All of these laws are designed to spare civilians from unwarranted suffering in or after armed conflicts.

According to the UN, the resolutions in 1996-97 were passed because DU breaches several international laws concerning inhumane weapons: it is not limited in time or space to the legal field of battle, or to military targets; it continues to act after the war; it is "inhumane" by virtue of its ability to cause prolonged or long term death by cancer and other serious health issues, it causes harm to future civilians and passers by (including unborn children and those breathing the air or drinking water); and it has an "unduly negative" and long term effect on the natural environment and food chain.

en.wikipedia.org...

Yet again it is only one form of chemical weapon.
Unless your denying that every weapon is not a chemical weapon?
As I said , if you want to complain about DU weapons go and see someone else but frankly DU weapons are just one more form of chemical weapons.

SAS Operatives are dressed as Civilans too.

Only when the mission requires them to fight an enemy who hides amoungst civilians.

Yes they do - and they were CAUGHT doing it.

No they where caught doing a survielance operation, as I suggested since there was only 2 of them.
Too small for an attack force and far too small a unit to be conducting false flag ops by itself.

And it is Simpler to just BELIVE what the MoD tell you it happend, then to think with Your Own Head and judge for Yourself.

Yes it is, thats why I dont.
But mabye its easier to believe what the resistance tell you to believe than to think with your own head and mabye the MOD is right.

If Murderous Thugs can inflirtate Iraqi Police - so can SAS dress as civilans and go Undercover.

Yeah they can.

How are the Iraqi Police supposed to know what are they?

Mabye by saying, "can I see some id?"

They Looked like "Terrorists" with all the Equipment, the Weapons and the Civilan Clothing? They are Lucky to be Alive.

Oh really?
What defines a "Terrorist" ? Holding a weapon?
Wrong, gun ownership is legal in iraq and the coalition forces allow it to go on with out confiscating weapons.
Or is this another lie?

I don't feel secure when the Military comes.

Why?

It only means two things: there is going to be Shooting and People are going to Die. That does not make me feel safe, but it makes me feel Unsafe and Nervous.

Oh really?
Thats a very closed opinion, what about the medical branch?
SAR operations?
Humanitarian aid missions?
Or are these lies too?

Even if you would be Innocent?

Yes, believe me I am not helping my inocence by being here right now.

Wouldn't you say they jumped some Conclusions and were, simply, "Trigger Happy"? Is Paranoia Patriotic these days?

No, I'd say they had poor info, as tony said ; "I only know what I have been told." That is true in everything.

MoD is NEVER low on cash.

Oh really?
Ha! You really are ignorant of us arnt you?
You realise we have budget cuts , VERY bad ones these days?
You realise that the RN has only 9 destroyers in the fleet? China has more than that.
You realise our FAA flies subsonic 20 year old jets?
You realise we have to combine regiments and now the army is down to its smallest size?
You realise that the RMC's are now down to just 6000 men?
You realise the MOD is cutting back on 1/3rd of its ammunition to help in iraq?

Well if you would be Inhalind DU dust for 3 Years, I think you would start to have some serious medical Problems by now.

Yeah and lead isnt bad?

You know why? Because DU is MUCH Worse then Lead and that's the whole problem here.

So its down to a "whats worse" arguement is it now?

Ofcourse the Army is saying "NOOOOO!" and denying everything - but still, DU does damage your body, much, MUCH worse then any other Material used for Ammunition. Period.

Really?
So what about nuclear warheads? Are they not as bad as DU?
Yet again more generalising, also I havent heard any MOD report denying DU dammage.

Yes they Do.

No they dont.

Why did they even Bother to Write down this Laws?

To allow the real people behind the money to win.

Once they work, and once they don't.
"It's BAD if Saddam kills People - but We can!"

Oh yeah wow, lets use some fancy posters and that will make our point sooo much better.

Know what, I know just what to do next time that will show that up..

[edit on 26/02/2005 by devilwasp]

Originally posted by devilwasp
That is true, the government do lie.

I am Glad we agree somewhere...

BTW, I do support the war and I havent been "brainwashed" no more than you have.

Yes I know you do support the War, probably because it's "Fun" for you. You are still Young and Inexperienced. You will Learn soon...

Really?
Care to explain the EU then?

You mean the Coalition of the Willing?

The war got quite a few countries support or are you saying that the UK and the US are the only 2 countries with military troops in iraq?

You mean the "Coalition of the Wealthy"?

Although the Coalition of the Willing only contained about a quarter of the world's countries, it contains a disproportionately large fraction of the world's economically powerful countries. For instance, the CoW contained:

15 of the 30 OECD nations;

15 of the 27 EU nations (Including the two acceding nations);

5 of the top 10 nations by GDP;

4 of the G8 nations;

Nations with 61% of the global GDP


Where are the BIG European Allies, like Germany, France that were in the Coalition during the First Gulf Wars?

About the time of the american war of independance.
It showed we had gave up makeing takeing over more countries and the end of the british "empire" as we knew it.

So you think that the Falkland Wars were Not fought with Imperliastic thoughts in their heads? Just like UK invaded America during the war of idependance?

There is no US empire since the US isnt in a position nor has the ability to do so.
The UK doesnt want imperialism, why try to take over the world when it just screws you over time and time again for everything and anything.
But heh then again its easier to blame the two "bad guys" than it is to think outside the box...

Yes there is a US Empire - and I understand you if you don't want to accept that, because by accepting that, you will have to also accept that UK does also have Imperialistic Tendencies.

C) I like shooting because well its fun, I dont like killing but I accept it needs to be done.

As I have told Before - it's FUN for you, thats because you are still young and looking for your true Identitiy. And the numerous soliders and sailors, that you have worked and lived with (as you said) have influenced so much on you, that you are interested in shooting. It's fun.

There are no winners and losers in war, only one side who was better off.

Actually - there are No winnder, just Loosers in Wars...

As I said , if you want to complain about DU weapons go and see someone else but frankly DU weapons are just one more form of chemical weapons.

Yes, they are Chemical, but a "Little" bit MORE Poisonous then ANY other Chemical, just because it is taken from a material, that is SEVERLY radiated in the start. If you think that it is SOOOO innocent, why don't you go practice some shooting with DU ammunition?

Only when the mission requires them to fight an enemy who hides amoungst civilians.

So, when they are discovered and Hiding in civilan clothing among the rest of the population, aren't they the SAME as the Terrorists you so much hate? Aren't they using the same Tactic of "Hiding among the Civilans"? So, why can they do it? Hypochrisy? Again?

No they where caught doing a survielance operation, as I suggested since there was only 2 of them.

Only two of them CAUGHT - how many are right now "On Mission"? Or How many times BEFORE were there SAS agents like that "On Mission"?

Yes it is, thats why I dont.
But mabye its easier to believe what the resistance tell you to believe than to think with your own head and mabye the MOD is right.

I read several articles and not "what resistance tells me". I am not in direct "contact" with them you know? I like to read Reuters, because I find they present the Facts without any hesitation. I also read alot of Slovenian newspapers, that tend to be more non-biased then any western news. I also like the Guardian and Independant.

Yeah they can.

No they Can't.

Mabye by saying, "can I see some id?"

Do US Forces "ASk of ID's" when they role in their Convoy on the Streets of Baghdad and open Fire at ANYBODY that come closer then 150 meters?

What defines a "Terrorist" ? Holding a weapon?
Wrong, gun ownership is legal in iraq and the coalition forces allow it to go on with out confiscating weapons.
Or is this another lie?

What For YOU defineces a "Terrorist"? An Arabic speaing Male with a Beard and a Towel on his head?

Well if Ownership of weapons is legal in Iraq, then Civilans can also have their Rifles and Pistols, right?

Thats a very closed opinion, what about the medical branch?
SAR operations?
Humanitarian aid missions?
Or are these lies too?

Soldiers also follow orders, and if they had an order to shoot you, they would. That's all they know - follow orders. From the Top General, that has to listen to the Supreme Commander to the Private 1st class that has to listen to his Sargeant.

No, I'd say they had poor info, as tony said ; "I only know what I have been told." That is true in everything.

Actually You and me only Know what they tell us - and BELIVE me, they know alot More and do not wan't to share with the people.

Oh really?
Ha! You really are ignorant of us arnt you?
You realise we have budget cuts , VERY bad ones these days?
You realise that the RN has only 9 destroyers in the fleet? China has more than that.
You realise our FAA flies subsonic 20 year old jets?
You realise we have to combine regiments and now the army is down to its smallest size?
You realise that the RMC's are now down to just 6000 men?
You realise the MOD is cutting back on 1/3rd of its ammunition to help in iraq?

AWwwwwwwwwww. Just makes me wan't to Cry! Your Army Buddies can't play with thier Toys anymore because they are old and they need new ones? BUhuhuhuHUHUU! You feel Inferior if you have less Destroyers then China? China is BIG, UK is not. But that's why Blair is so EAGER to help the US president in this alleged "War on Terror", because it brings Money to the Defence Budget. Wars are GOOD for the Army. Wars are GOOD for the Economy. Wars are GOOD for the Empire.

Yeah and lead isnt bad?

Not as Bad as DU...

Really?
So what about nuclear warheads? Are they not as bad as DU?
Yet again more generalising, also I havent heard any MOD report denying DU dammage.

How many Nuclear Warheads were actually Dropped in the Armed Conflicts? Two? How many TONS od Depleted Uranium were dropped on Iraq?

Read This:

The Geiger counter carried by a visiting reporter starts singing when it nears a DU bullet fragment no bigger than a pencil eraser. It registers nearly 1,000 times normal background radiation levels on the digital readout.

Despite the troops' bulldozing of contaminated earth away from the burnt vehicles, black piles of pure DU ash and particles are still present at the site. The toxic residue, if inhaled or ingested, is considered by scientists to be the most dangerous form of DU.

One pile of jet-black dust yielded a digital readout of 9,839 radioactive emissions in one minute, more than 300 times average background levels registered by the Geiger counter. Another pile of dust reached 11,585 emissions in a minute.

The depleted-uranium bullets are made of low-level radioactive nuclear-waste material, left over from the making of nuclear fuel and weapons. It is 1.7 times as dense as lead, and burns its way easily through armor. But it is controversial because it leaves a trail of contamination that has half-life of 4.5 billion years - the age of our solar system.

www.csmonitor.com...


In three separate interviews a U.S. Special Operations Command Colonel admitted that the U.S. and Great Britain fired 500 tons of D.U. munitions into Iraq.

He also admitted that privately the Pentagon has acknowledged the health hazards of D.U. for years.

He asked to remain unnamed for obviously apparent safety reasons, and so that he may remain a valuable source of information. (I will admit that I will jealously guard his identity to keep him as a source.)

www.scoop.co.nz...

No they dont.

Yes they do.

Know what, I know just what to do next time that will show that up..

You do?

This one is for all Young Boys, that wanna be Soldiers!



[edit on 18/10/05 by Souljah]

Funny how easily things get out of control.

And Souljah, let me tell you, most of Americans don't really like what Bush is doing with the country. Last time I checked his approval ratings were down to 39%. So nobody is arguing with that, I myself don't like Bush, and I think the war in Iraq was a big mistake. But you seem to take it a bit too far by accusing the US of targeting civilians and taking an ultra liberal point of view.

[edit on 18-10-2005 by RK_Pr0t0c0l]

Originally posted by Souljah
Yes I know you do support the War, probably because it's "Fun" for you. You are still Young and Inexperienced. You will Learn soon...

"Fun"? Whats fun about my friends and my cousin possibly going to iraq?
Whats fun about my countrymen dieing?
You realise I feel heart broken everytime one of our lads die , I support the war but frankly I dont like it.
I am not as "young or inexperieced" as you may think but heh thats your opinion.

You mean the Coalition of the Willing?

Wow I didnt know that france , germany and spain suddenly had troops in iraq!

You mean the "Coalition of the Wealthy"?

Although the Coalition of the Willing only contained about a quarter of the world's countries, it contains a disproportionately large fraction of the world's economically powerful countries. For instance, the CoW contained:

15 of the 30 OECD nations;

15 of the 27 EU nations (Including the two acceding nations);

5 of the top 10 nations by GDP;

4 of the G8 nations;

Nations with 61% of the global GDP


Where are the BIG European Allies, like Germany, France that were in the Coalition during the First Gulf Wars?

I didnt know the UK wasnt a big ally nor did I know that france or germany NEEDED to be part of a war before it became "good" but heh ofcourse if germany was part of the Coalition I have no doubt there would be "fourth riech" statements made...

So you think that the Falkland Wars were Not fought with Imperliastic thoughts in their heads?

No we fought for the oil that was ours around it AND the people that lived there AND because it belongs to us.

Just like UK invaded America during the war of idependance?

The UK didnt need to invade, it was already there....
How can you become independant from something with that something being part of your culture?

Yes there is a US Empire - and I understand you if you don't want to accept that, because by accepting that, you will have to also accept that UK does also have Imperialistic Tendencies.

There is no US empire, if you want to believe that go ahead, It simply proves my point that you have an anti US opinion.
The UK gave up its imperialistic tendancies decades ago, but heh if you want to believe that too go ahead.
Just remember, the MOD has the ability to decimate many of the smaller countries in the EU and around the world but we havent...

As I have told Before - it's FUN for you, thats because you are still young and looking for your true Identitiy.

I am not looking for my true identity, its with me all the time, it doesnt change.
I know men and women who arent military that enjoy shooting, hell my old coach was a woman who worked as a sub contractor for the MOD and she could shoot better than some snipers..

And the numerous soliders and sailors, that you have worked and lived with (as you said) have influenced so much on you, that you are interested in shooting. It's fun.

Not really, these "soldiers and sailors" I've lived with have influenced me because I grew up with them as cadets and friends but they choose thier own careers and I choose to go shooting by myself, long before I joined the cadets I was interested in weapons.

Actually - there are No winnder, just Loosers in Wars...

Yes thats another way to put it.

Yes, they are Chemical, but a "Little" bit MORE Poisonous then ANY other Chemical,

Oh?
So what about anthrax?
U235 or U238?

just because it is taken from a material, that is SEVERLY radiated in the start. If you think that it is SOOOO innocent, why don't you go practice some shooting with DU ammunition?

I dont think its sooooo inocent, I am saying its just another weapon, just as dangerous to life as any other.

So, when they are discovered and Hiding in civilan clothing among the rest of the population, aren't they the SAME as the Terrorists you so much hate?

They dont shoot mame and kill civilians, terrorists do.
Also I dont hate terrorists, they are not all the same.

Aren't they using the same Tactic of "Hiding among the Civilans"? So, why can they do it? Hypochrisy? Again?

1) SAS men dont hide amongst civilians, they go and seek out enemy who are hiding amognst civilians.

Only two of them CAUGHT - how many are right now "On Mission"? Or How many times BEFORE were there SAS agents like that "On Mission"?

Probably hundreds of MOD and BRITISH INTELLIGENCE agents are "on mission" watching the enemy.
Intelligence services dont fight the enemy, why? Because the best weapon they can use IS intelligence.

I read several articles and not "what resistance tells me". I am not in direct "contact" with them you know? I like to read Reuters, because I find they present the Facts without any hesitation. I also read alot of Slovenian newspapers, that tend to be more non-biased then any western news. I also like the Guardian and Independant.

You ever read navy news?
Ever read the BBC?

No they Can't.

Yeah they can..

Do US Forces "ASk of ID's" when they role in their Convoy on the Streets of Baghdad and open Fire at ANYBODY that come closer then 150 meters?

Actually they do, if you didnt notice thats what the sling on a rifle is for...
You keep it at low ports hold it with one hand and check I'ds with the other, if its bad you can bring the rifle up quickly and have a weapon trained at the enemy in seconds.

What For YOU defineces a "Terrorist"? An Arabic speaing Male with a Beard and a Towel on his head?

No, thats generalising.

I see a terrorist as someone who tries to force his or her beliefs on me by means of terror.

BTW, not all terrorists come from the middle east.

Well if Ownership of weapons is legal in Iraq, then Civilans can also have their Rifles and Pistols, right?

They do...
They still need to obey the law..

Soldiers also follow orders, and if they had an order to shoot you, they would.

Wrong.

That's all they know - follow orders.

Wrong again!

From the Top General, that has to listen to the Supreme Commander to the Private 1st class that has to listen to his Sargeant.

Yeah he has to listen and has to follow orders UNLESS they break the law such as shooting civilians.

Actually You and me only Know what they tell us - and BELIVE me, they know alot More and do not wan't to share with the people.

Who is "they"?
The government?
The INTEL agencies?

AWwwwwwwwwww. Just makes me wan't to Cry! Your Army Buddies can't play with thier Toys anymore because they are old and they need new ones?

No it means they die.

BUhuhuhuHUHUU! You feel Inferior if you have less Destroyers then China?

Uh yeah considering we had the worlds biggest navy less than 7 decades ago.

China is BIG, UK is not. But that's why Blair is so EAGER to help the US president in this alleged "War on Terror", because it brings Money to the Defence Budget.

No it doesnt! For god sake, during the war we had budget cuts! You know black watch, the regiment that went into baghdad? They where almalgamated the day they returned home.
We spend 8% of our GDP on defence, thats not alot.

Wars are GOOD for the Army. Wars are GOOD for the Economy. Wars are GOOD for the Empire.

Wars are not good, the best way to win is with out any fighting.
Sun Tzu said that but in a diffrent way and I would qoute him if I hadnt left my book at home..

Not as Bad as DU...

So yet again, its a "whats worse" arguement?

How many Nuclear Warheads were actually Dropped in the Armed Conflicts?

So its now a numbers game?

Two? How many TONS od Depleted Uranium were dropped on Iraq?

Read This:

The Geiger counter carried by a visiting reporter starts singing when it nears a DU bullet fragment no bigger than a pencil eraser. It registers nearly 1,000 times normal background radiation levels on the digital readout.

Despite the troops' bulldozing of contaminated earth away from the burnt vehicles, black piles of pure DU ash and particles are still present at the site. The toxic residue, if inhaled or ingested, is considered by scientists to be the most dangerous form of DU.

One pile of jet-black dust yielded a digital readout of 9,839 radioactive emissions in one minute, more than 300 times average background levels registered by the Geiger counter. Another pile of dust reached 11,585 emissions in a minute.

The depleted-uranium bullets are made of low-level radioactive nuclear-waste material, left over from the making of nuclear fuel and weapons. It is 1.7 times as dense as lead, and burns its way easily through armor. But it is controversial because it leaves a trail of contamination that has half-life of 4.5 billion years - the age of our solar system.

www.csmonitor.com...


In three separate interviews a U.S. Special Operations Command Colonel admitted that the U.S. and Great Britain fired 500 tons of D.U. munitions into Iraq.

He also admitted that privately the Pentagon has acknowledged the health hazards of D.U. for years.

He asked to remain unnamed for obviously apparent safety reasons, and so that he may remain a valuable source of information. (I will admit that I will jealously guard his identity to keep him as a source.)

www.scoop.co.nz...

Yet again, is this about numbers or is this about human rights?

Yes they do.

No they dont.

You do?

Yeah.

This one is for all Young Boys, that wanna be Soldiers!



[edit on 18/10/05 by Souljah]

Oh wooohoo anti war posters! Yay lets all buy one and help the slave trade!

Mod Edit: Fixed Quote Tag.

[edit on 20/10/2005 by Mirthful Me]

Originally posted by devilwasp
You realise I feel heart broken everytime one of our lads die , I support the war but frankly I dont like it.
I am not as "young or inexperieced" as you may think but heh thats your opinion.

You support the war? And you know that by Supporting the war you are also supporting your Lads to go and die? You can't see this, right? If you would REALLY care for your Lads, you would be against it and you would not want this Nightmare to go on for anymore!

Wow I didnt know that france , germany and spain suddenly had troops in iraq!

Who said that they do?

I didnt know the UK wasnt a big ally nor did I know that france or germany NEEDED to be part of a war before it became "good" but heh ofcourse if germany was part of the Coalition I have no doubt there would be "fourth riech" statements made...

Sadly it's like this: Blair is Bush's lapdog and he will do as told. That's why your Lads are dying in downtown Basra - 'coz Bush told them to go.

No we fought for the oil that was ours around it AND the people that lived there AND because it belongs to us.

Hmmmm... I Wonder if Saddam was thinking like that too when he Invaded Kuwait....

The UK didnt need to invade, it was already there....
How can you become independant from something with that something being part of your culture?

Yes - but I think that the United Yugoslavia was much better then what we have Today.

Just remember, the MOD has the ability to decimate many of the smaller countries in the EU and around the world but we havent...

Now THAT is Imperialistic Thinking!

I know men and women who arent military that enjoy shooting, hell my old coach was a woman who worked as a sub contractor for the MOD and she could shoot better than some snipers..

See? She was also in connection with Soliders, the Military and the Ministry of Defence.

Not really, these "soldiers and sailors" I've lived with have influenced me because I grew up with them as cadets and friends but they choose thier own careers and I choose to go shooting by myself, long before I joined the cadets I was interested in weapons.

Ok - whatever you say Lad. I am sure that if you lived with a bunch of Young Medicine Students, that you would be a Med student now - but hey, that's just my Opinion...

I dont think its sooooo inocent, I am saying its just another weapon, just as dangerous to life as any other.

No it is NOT just another Weapon! Go to Fallujah and take out the Geiger counter and start watching how crazy it will go. Facts ARE that US and UK forces dropped thousands of Tons of this Material on Iraq, not caring for the Enviroment, civilan Iraqi people and their own Soldiers.

1) SAS men dont hide amongst civilians, they go and seek out enemy who are hiding amognst civilians.

But driving in a civilan car with civilan clothing in the midldle if Iraq on the road with other civilan cars, IS hiding among civilans. If they would suddenly be stopped in a traffic jam, and they would be shot at, alot of civilans, around them, would die, right?

Probably hundreds of MOD and BRITISH INTELLIGENCE agents are "on mission" watching the enemy.
Intelligence services dont fight the enemy, why? Because the best weapon they can use IS intelligence.

Have you ever heard of Black Ops? When Intelligence uses their special Agents for some Clandestine Terrorism? Setting up bombs? Assassination people? No? You think they just "gather intel"? PLEASE! It's WAR!

You ever read navy news?
Ever read the BBC?

I don' think the Navy News can offer me any information that I would find useful, just because it would be full of pride for the UK and hate for the "terrorists". BBC is better, but still much like Sky News - both under heavy influence of USA.

Actually they do, if you didnt notice thats what the sling on a rifle is for...
You keep it at low ports hold it with one hand and check I'ds with the other, if its bad you can bring the rifle up quickly and have a weapon trained at the enemy in seconds.

Yes, that's what the Manual says. The Pratice is ALWAYS much different then the Theory in the Manual.

BTW, not all terrorists come from the middle east.

Agreed - some come from the White House and from Downing Street....

Who is "they"?
The government?
The INTEL agencies?

All of them?

Uh yeah considering we had the worlds biggest navy less than 7 decades ago.

So you do miss your Empire, huh? Miss your Biggest Navy and all the great stuff it brings when you Control the Seven Seas? But now the US Navy is the Biggest in the World and THEY patrol the Seas and all you can do, is Jump when they say How High!

We spend 8% of our GDP on defence, thats not alot.

Agreed - that't not alot, compared to the the percentage of the US Defence Budget, that is somehow SCARY!

Wars are not good, the best way to win is with out any fighting.
Sun Tzu said that but in a diffrent way and I would qoute him if I hadnt left my book at home..

I like Sun Tzu also - I know what you ment:

Hence to fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting.

Yet again, is this about numbers or is this about human rights?

It's about Both! It's about the Nature that this "Case" is handeled by the Military - like Nothing happened, while DU is poisoning their own Soliders, the innocent civilans and the enviroment! But they simply do not care, just because it is NOT happening in their Backyard, but in a place far, FAR away, somewhere in the Desert.

No they dont.

Yes they do.

Oh wooohoo anti war posters! Yay lets all buy one and help the slave trade!

Slave Trade?

You mean the once that the wester Mercaneries are involved into - like the Private "Security" forces in Bosnia and Kosovo?

"Johnston witnessed coworkers and supervisors literally buying and selling women for their own personal enjoyment, and employees would brag about the various ages and talents of the individual slaves they had purchased."

DynCorp/CSC

Great Job!

Originally posted by Souljah
You support the war?

yes.

And you know that by Supporting the war you are also supporting your Lads to go and die? You can't see this, right? If you would REALLY care for your Lads, you would be against it and you would not want this Nightmare to go on for anymore!
I support the war because it was the right course of action to take, sometimes the right call isnt the right call.
If the lads die I'm sorry for them I feel angry against those that killed them but I still support what they fight for and what they believe in.

Thats what I see and aparantly YOU dont.

Who said that they do?

You did..

Sadly it's like this: Blair is Bush's lapdog and he will do as told. That's why your Lads are dying in downtown Basra - 'coz Bush told them to go.

Yet again , you going to stay on topic or just keep trying to insult my country and PM?
He's not a lap dog, I am no fan of blair but he is not a lap dog.

Hmmmm... I Wonder if Saddam was thinking like that too when he Invaded Kuwait....

I wonder if kuwait was taken by force by a military dictatorship several weeks before sadamm invaded.

Yes - but I think that the United Yugoslavia was much better then what we have Today.

Yugoslavia?
Why? How? Are you doing this on purpose or are you tangenting for no reason?

Now THAT is Imperialistic Thinking!

Thats the point , we have the capability, but we havnt.

See? She was also in connection with Soliders, the Military and the Ministry of Defence.

Soldiers?
The nearest soldiers to her where several miles away in a TA base and probably dont know her.
She actually works for a company that does work for both the MOD and several civilian companies, does "knowing" the MOD make one"tainted"?

Ok - whatever you say Lad. I am sure that if you lived with a bunch of Young Medicine Students, that you would be a Med student now - but hey, that's just my Opinion...

Yeah , IMO your opnions quite badly put together since your trying to formulate who or what drives/drove me to supporting the military with out even knowing me but that is after all just my opinion.

No it is NOT just another Weapon!

Yes it is.

Go to Fallujah and take out the Geiger counter and start watching how crazy it will go. Facts ARE that US and UK forces dropped thousands of Tons of this Material on Iraq, not caring for the Enviroment, civilan Iraqi people and their own Soldiers.

Yet again, its just another weapon, go to any battle site where mines where involved and most likely you'll find them. But ofcourse as you pointed out, its a numbers game isnt it?

But driving in a civilan car with civilan clothing in the midldle if Iraq on the road with other civilan cars, IS hiding among civilans.

Really?
Wow thanks for defineing that, want to define what my life shoudl be like next?
Mabye the colour of underwear I should wear tomorrow?

If they would suddenly be stopped in a traffic jam, and they would be shot at, alot of civilans, around them, would die, right?

If they where shot at the men would move away from the civilians on foot if needed, its the enemy thats not takeing care to shoot at civilians.

Have you ever heard of Black Ops?

Yeah they are done by SF teams, not intel agencies.

When Intelligence uses their special Agents for some Clandestine Terrorism?

Reallly?
And you might notice most of the men used in it where ex or serving militray members, mostly SF men.

Setting up bombs? Assassination people? No? You think they just "gather intel"? PLEASE! It's WAR!

If they wanted to assasinate someone they would use a third party, not directly approach someone, thats political and military suicide.

I don' think the Navy News can offer me any information that I would find useful, just because it would be full of pride for the UK and hate for the "terrorists".

You really think so?
You know I have read about 3 navy news about the war in iraq and they never preached any "hate" to terrorists", It mostly reports about drug runs and sporting events. But heh ofcourse they are still the bad guys and rapists..

BBC is better, but still much like Sky News - both under heavy influence of USA.

Huh!!!!!
Under heavy influence from the US???

Yes, that's what the Manual says. The Pratice is ALWAYS much different then the Theory in the Manual.

Its not what the manual says, its what practice says

Agreed - some come from the White House and from Downing Street....

Yes I agree guy fox does count as one but heh, nice cheap dig but no cigar mate.

All of them?

All of whoo?????

So you do miss your Empire, huh? Miss your Biggest Navy and all the great stuff it brings when you Control the Seven Seas? But now the US Navy is the Biggest in the World and THEY patrol the Seas and all you can do, is Jump when they say How High!

Biggest doesnt mean best
We do hate what our past govs have done to our great navy and empire but heh, they dont want to live with us fair enough.
BTW, we are no lap dog to the US.

Agreed - that't not alot, compared to the the percentage of the US Defence Budget, that is somehow SCARY!

Yet again, back onto the US, mind switching back to the world instead of ANTI US MUST DISINFO style convo?

I like Sun Tzu also - I know what you ment:

Hence to fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting.

I started to read his book while on fishery protection then that sea sickness incident happened to my friend....lets not go into that actually..

It's about Both! It's about the Nature that this "Case" is handeled by the Military - like Nothing happened, while DU is poisoning their own Soliders, the innocent civilans and the enviroment! But they simply do not care, just because it is NOT happening in their Backyard, but in a place far, FAR away, somewhere in the Desert.

Its about NETHIER, this is simply because you dislike DU, not because its a bad weapon just because YOU dislike IT.
Look up napalm, and tell me thats a "nice" weapon.
I hate it..

Yes they do.

No they dont.

Slave Trade?

You mean the once that the wester Mercaneries are involved into - like the Private "Security" forces in Bosnia and Kosovo?

"Johnston witnessed coworkers and supervisors literally buying and selling women for their own personal enjoyment, and employees would brag about the various ages and talents of the individual slaves they had purchased."

DynCorp/CSC

Great Job!


Wohoo down the west, burn us all!

You done yet and going to get back on topic or just want me to be beheaded yet?

Mod Edit: Fixed Quote Tags On The Mother Of All "Big Quotes."

[edit on 20/10/2005 by Mirthful Me]

War creates fascism. The army is not designed as a democracy, it is put together as a fascist entity. You don't ask questions, you do what you are told for the good of the "corps". If you don't or if you question your orders, it's either the brig or the firing squad.

If you're for war, you're for fascism, it's pretty simple.

And as to the original topic of the thread, Bush HIMSELF said this:

"We cannot accept that there can be free democratic elections in a country under foreign military occupation".

Except he was talking about Lebanon and Syria. How funny is THAT to the rest of the thinking world?! HAHA!



[edit on 20-10-2005 by Jakomo]

Originally posted by Jakomo
War creates fascism. The army is not designed as a democracy, it is put together as a fascist entity. You don't ask questions, you do what you are told for the good of the "corps". If you don't or if you question your orders, it's either the brig or the firing squad.

If you're for war, you're for fascism, it's pretty simple.

u mean fascism creates war. its the other way around. and to support for war dont mean u are a fascist. thats like supporting WW2 where the entire American population was mobilized to defeat the Axis, i guess they are all fascists right?




[edit on 20-10-2005 by Jakomo]

[edit on 20-10-2005 by deltaboy]

Originally posted by Jakomo
If you're for war, you're for fascism, it's pretty simple.

“Pretty simple?” Based upon........

Rather more of an ‘oversimplified’ statement on your behalf.



.

Originally posted by Souljah
Well first of all, I am not that Naive as the Majority of the People - especially your kind ones. You would eat everything that your goverment serves you. I don't.

So, you agree that you'r paranoid !

I have seen quiet a few documentaries and have read quiet a few books on that topic and I am sure that it was not a work of some crazed muslim terrorists.

Your saying that your knowledge about America and the War against terrorism is through "documentaries" and books and you have no practical experience about any of which you speak about. Yet you rant on with some sense of perverse authority about the "facts" ?
By using this technique I could say that slovenians are blood thirsty fundamentalist racist christians who perninially mistreat refugees and continue to subjugate women
source

And it goes hand in hand with your presidents agenda of World Domination - so ofcourse he will "burn down his Reichstag".

Again the Nazi connotations, obviously you do not know what real Nazi's were like, if you did you would think twice before you made such comparisions.
This reference obviously means you are desperate to malign Bush anyway you can without submitting to any form of reason.
If Bush agenda was truly world domination, it would be over already, we wouldnt waste hundreds of American lives trying to secure civilians and the like we would just have nuked the world in one swift and decisive strike with nobody left to complain. But we didnt use nuclear weapons, nor any large scale carpet bombings, these facts prove that Bush has no interest in World domination and it is nothing more than sensationalism and a desperate campaign to malign America and its people.

It Does? Really? Well MOST of this Planet does not Share your Opinion. Especially during this administration, which has proven numerous times that HUMANITY is something unknown to them.

Really? Is that why the continued presence of America troops is sanctioned by the UN ?
Is that why the US is the largest aid donor in the world?
Is that why USAID and other American aid organizations so widely distributed?
Is that why Africa receives the greatest amount of Aid from the US ?
Most of the people on this planet do support America, it is only a few misguided individuals such as yourself who lack the capacity to understand America's compulsions and its responsibilites who have form the core of the desperatly disgruntled.
I would also like to point out that it was during this administration that the US Govt. pledged nearly $1billion + in aid to the nations affected by the Tsunami in SE Asia. (Private american contributions not included in the fig above)
Also during the Katrina disaster the international support received by America was also phenominal. Not supprisingly Slovenia has not made any significant contributions help people during the Tsunami.
So I would say, as would any reasonable person that not only does the world support America it also seeks to actively encourage greater American participation in world affairs .

Why is the Military Budget record high, justl like in the days of Cold War? Care to explain that?

The US military budget is no where near cold war levels, also if your going to ask me why the US military budget is so high I would like to counter that question with another question Why does the Slovenian military spend close to $370 million(2000) for a country so small and so remote ? Especially when the public debt is nearly 31.5% of the GDP ? CIA Fact Book
I can tell you why the US spends more now than it did in the last decade, it because we are fighting in 2 theaters at once both in Afganistan and Iraq. Also the US is actively engaged in monitoring the world for terrorist activites and seeking to curb nuclear proliferation. Any nation that has two active theaters of conflict is likely to spend more on its military then it usually did.

You bet its bad if you are Illegaly Invading other countries for corporate interersts. Hitler had that Idea once too - he called it the THIRD REICH. One People. One State. One Leadership. One Empire.

Again with the Nazi comparisions, you dont know about the Nazi do you ?

Yea, when you can't find any more Excuses - use the word TERRORISM. You are so predictable - like your monkey of a president.

What excuses, it was always about Terrorism, when did I ever say it was for anything else ??
Also the only monkey here is you, who is incapable of standing to reason.

And while you Rant about how "War on Terrorism" is GOOD for Mankind, warprofiteers get richer and they take the dollar from your pockets into theirs. Are you getting filthy rich right now? The problem here is, the the MAIN Tyrannt is your president and his corporate friends that create wars in order to make profit. Perod.

Basically, you and your kind want America to walk away from what you consider to be military excess, to be docile and cowardly but that is not the American way! We do not sit about and take an attack on our nation lightly, we respond swiftly and surely to a force that seeks to destroy us just as we did during WW2 against our aggressors and we will do so with all aggressors direct or indirect. It has been too long that the US has turned a blind eye to the problems of the middle east and central asia and it is due to this that we have partly let the this evil of terrorism spread its tentacles in that region. The US and its coalition seek to put an end to this evil no matter the costs, as no cost is too great for stabiliity and peace.
Obviously you wouldnt understand this sentiment shared by millions of people around the world who are victims of terrorism as you live in some remote corner of an inconsequential nation. Unfortunately all we in the US cannot afford such a luxury and neither can many people who are the victims of terrorism, we have to face up to it and take the bull by its horns. The US and its allies hope to be the vangaurd of this effort to protect humanity from the evil of terrorism and show millions in the middle east a new path where dignity, equality, justice and tolerance are the foundations of a democratic and responsible state.
I may not be "filthy rich" but I am squeaky clean well off !
another thing, it doesnt matter if it was Bush or it was somebody else, any president other would have doen alomost the same things as Bush did with Afganistan and the war on terrorism given the circumstances. You may be under the delusion that Bush is out to get the world but that is not true at all, if you can recall the first days of his presidency most people though of him to be the most carefree president we ever had. It is only after 9/11 did he realize the magnitude of terrorism and its scope and that something had to be done now. Another point I want to make is that Bush had given both the Taliban and Saddam a chance to resolve things peacefully but it THEY that refused to do so and insisted on war, and brought this misery on their people not America. If he were really as blood thirslty as you claim he would not have given them a chance to end it peacefully.

You sound like those Porch-Masons here on the Board, yelling all the time the word "PROOF!PROOF!PROOF!" - kind of Pathetic.

So asking for a credible and respected source of information that has also been independently verified as PROOF of an action is Pathetic ??
Not that I expect you to know this but all rational people need credible and verifiable PROOF to ascertain something as a FACT without such proof it is nothing more than hearsay and rhetoric.

I have given you 3 links, and none of them for you is Good Enough. Its funny, because you would not find ANY of my links or statements as Proof, simply because I have showed them to you.

As stated above, proof to you is just any odd link that happens to meet the search criteria at google but to most of us their is this small matter of credibility.
None of your links comes anywhere close to being called plausible let alone credible hence I dismiss them.

Yes we did. We put up a Great Fight, but you wouln't know anything about it anyway. Wait a minute! Did you say BOOK? You actually READ Books?

No Way!

I am sure the Slovenians had their own "normandy" aka "Great Fight" but unfortuntely nobody except the Slovenians knows about it!
well, I wont press you for the "PROOF" for that one!
Yes BOOKS, shockingly in the US people who hope to become graduates need to be able to read BOOKS !!

"Fascism should be called CORPORATIVISM, because it is the merge of the State and the Corporation!"
Sound Familiar? *cough*Halliburton*cough*

Oh the Halliburton card once again !
Firstly, Halliburton is a very large company in the US which provides hundreds of people with jobs and thus is a vital part of the economy. Also as the common man spends for the war it would only be proper that the money is paid back into America where it originated from. As halliburton gets a contract form the Govt it hires more americans to work for it and this improves the lively hood of many Americans. Now comming to Bush's relation ship with Halliburton, as this is America most captains of the industry know the President or some people in the Administration as political parties depend heavily on these people to fund their campaigns, this however does not mean that Bush is conspiring with Halliburton or others to cheat the country.
Most contracts are taken through tenders and these tenders are open to all companies and only the best deals are chosen and everything is accounted for in Black and white. If congress feels that their is a likelyhood of fraud an independent commitee is set up to investigate .

Remember that old Lady that was so brutally disarmed by the Guards in New Olreans? Her Rights were trampeled on faster then you can say "G'Day!". What makes you think that they will "Skip" your doorbell? Because you are a diehard republican?

As you say 'disarmed' she had a weapon and they National Gaurd is well within its rights to disarm anybody who refuses to lower a weapon in New Orleans especially when they have been given shoot to kill orders to resotre order in the city.
What rights of hers were "trampled' ?
You just want to find some sorry excuse or the other to malign the US and most every time you end up falling flat on your face. :shk:
excuse me if i dont respond to all your prattle.......

Bottom line is that these New Great Sonars KILL THEM and the Navy does not care at all - like yourself. Will maybe an Article from make this story more "real" for your delicate senses?

My god! This is lame! Sonar is not NEW!! It has been around for more that 60 years!! And sonars do not kill, they merely produce amplified sound that bounces of other objects and is picked up by a receiver and the object is picked up by the sonar. It is very primitive technology!!
Also the Navy truly does not give a damn about the fishes going crazy because of sonar and it shouldnt.

No more rainforrest, no more mankind. Simple. What will you BREATH? Canned Air? Geez.

Unfortunately this is the only emo available!
Do you know how much Co2 the oceans absorb, also do you know that plants ABSORB oxygen during the night ?
If all the rain forests are gone their would still be enough vegetation on earth to support life and moreover it isnt merely the plant life that contributes to the production of oxygen.
Damn, do you need to read up on science.

Works for Huamnity?

Yes, work for humanity every thing around you is most likely invented in America or by Americans including the internet and the PC etc etc.
Unlike Slovenia we cant just throw rocks at Bosnian tanks for 10 days and criticize everybody who does something meaningfull!

**Sorry about the Spelling!

[edit on 20-10-2005 by IAF101]

cjf:

“Pretty simple?” Based upon........

Rather more of an ‘oversimplified’ statement on your behalf.

If you're for war you ARE for fascism.

The Webster definition of fascism:

1) a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition
2) : a tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial control

What is the traditional structure of an army, ANY army? A high-ranking General or Supreme Allied Commander or something.

Do you often hear men in specialized squads in an army say, "Yeah, we're great, but Russia has tougher soldiers"?

Bear in mind I'm saying if you SUPPORT war in general. I know that sometimes it is necessary (against the Nazis in WWII), but that doesn't mean I like it or support it. It's a necessary evil in the rarest of times, and only comes about because of stupid human pride and arrogance.

Look back in history at which wars were entirely necessary. I'd like to see a list, because as far as I know, only World War 2 stands out, and that would have been far less horrific if only Chamberlain had used his damn brain.

As for the specific case of Iraq, if you support military invasion by a superpower of a 3rd world nation under the false pretense of "freeing" it from a military dictator and then militarily occupying it for the foreseeable future, then I'd say that is far closer to fascism than it is to democracy.