China's very own plagiarized Su-27 ?

Originally posted by Stealth Spy
That is very very untrue >>

Please read this US govt website

The CFM is a joint venture by Snecma Moteurs-France and General Electric Aircraft Engines america.

China uses these engines on her boeing and airbus fleets. .

how can the US government pin point which one of these engines where used?

The article is not mine but from credible sources, and i have read all of them and i suggest you read the several references i have made before making statements like that.

Did you read the article?


The J-11B is a upgrade of the J-11.

I dont think your sources are lacking i think its our english

Another violation of the terms & conditions stipulated by Sukhoi.

The terms of the contract was that china builds these Su-27 frm kit from russia but is unable to export them.

We are allowed to modifly hem according to our needs

[edit on 17-9-2005 by chinawhite]

Originally posted by Stealth Spy

Please do a bit more research before posting on such things.

I was asking you a question

Here is the corrected link >> scroll down >> Russian arms industry sources have disclosed that China is close to mastering the complex skills required to build the the Al-31 engine.

Why did you change the article then

and what does this amount to ??

Which is said . means that it is a rumour and not hard edvidence.

www.strategypage.com...

is this what you are down to. a user posted article

I'd hardly call this guy a " forum user"..
He looks pretty old, at least 50+, is an author, and actually owns "strategypage"..

His views maybe incorrect and/or biased, agreed, I haven't looked into that yet..and probably won't..

check out his biography..

Certainly no "armchair general" types like the lot of us here

jimdunnigan.com...

Originally posted by Daedalus3
I'd hardly call this guy a " forum user"..
He looks pretty old, at least 50+, is an author, and actually owns "strategypage"..
His views maybe incorrect and/or biased, agreed, I haven't looked into that yet..and probably won't..

Would you trust anything SP prints? its known from having bias views and printing false or un-comfired edvidence.

Agreed that this guy is no armchair general but he was a artillery man and not a pilot or weapons designer

Stealthspy hasn't just been posting this thread on this ATS but also at key forum publishing and was active on chinadefense before he was banned for spamming.

His very ambitious and doesn't just spend his time here but spreads his BS other places as well.

Heres what the moderator had to say to him in one of his FC-1 bashing threads.

Crob, Hyper, anyone else? I think it's one of your turns to bash this zombie-myth's head in now.
But then again, some people simply prefer vague conspiracy-theories rather then the obvious and rather well-documented J-7 -> Super-7 -> JF-17.

forum.keypublishing.co.uk...

He can bash the FC-1 if he likes.. Pakistan is getting 150 of them....

Wait.. we'll get our MiG29OVTs/Mirage-2005s and then we'll talk..

Seriously, I don't think the PAF will ever get their 150 FC-1s..
The paki economy just can't handle that kind of fund diversion/infusion..
THey're on financial "life support" from the americans/chinese..

Originally posted by chinawhite
Stealthspy hasn't just been posting this thread on this ATS but also at key forum publishing and was active on chinadefense before he was banned for spamming.

Too bad you cant resist flaming here as well.

Banned ... that must be you ; I post freely on all on both CDF and AFM forums. I just posted on CDF and Key Pub forums right now !!

Its you who's apparently spamming haere on ATS by bringing up irrelavent, things no way related to the topic at hand.

His very ambitious and doesn't just spend his time here but spreads his BS other places as well.

I suppose, that such flame bait remarks are all that you are capable of saying.

Heres what the moderator had to say to him in one of his FC-1 bashing threads.

Crob, Hyper, anyone else? I think it's one of your turns to bash this zombie-myth's head in now.
But then again, some people simply prefer vague conspiracy-theories rather then the obvious and rather well-documented J-7 -> Super-7 -> JF-17.

forum.keypublishing.co.uk...

Oh... brother, that thread is on the Mig project -33 if you did'nt notice. And please to take note that the same crobato and Hyper that the very person has requested to reply have replied only confirming what i had stated.

Infact Hyper(a noted chinese aviation expert) says >> "So I guess, stealth_spy is somewhat correct....." and crobato adds "However, one cannot deny that MiG may have provided advisory assistance to CAC on the JF-17" .

And infact if you bother to check my first post on this thread, it includes a quote from the article written by crobato himself (chinese aviation expert).

Its is pity that things that go on on other forums have to be brought up on ATS by chinawhite...who also wrongly misinforms that i have been banned, etc. I infact stopped replying to this thread to avert a flame war after the replies by chinawhite became increasingly hostile and leaned towards flaming. But spreading untrue stories and quoting parts of some other forum out of context was the last straw, and i was left with no choice to reply to his flame ridden post.

Mods, isi'nt giving links to other forums for the purpose of flaming a violation of ATS's T&C ??

Also please do note that the claims of my first post ar not my own, but are of credible sources - like chinese aviation experts, Sukhoi officials, several US Govt. Reasearch papers, reputed websites on Chinese aviation, and independant links. Also please to take the note in my first post.

I appeal to one and all to stop giving links to other forums and quoting people out of context to initate a flame war and using this as an excuse to divert constructive discussion from the central topic.

EDIT: UMM. this is not encouraged at ATS

SORRY ats members


EDIT:

HOW COME I CANT EDIT MY POST WITH THE LINK?

[edit on 20-9-2005 by chinawhite]

Originally posted by Stealth Spy
Too bad you cant resist flaming here as well.

You should look at your own threads. when you were gone their was no flamming at ATS but now you are back.

I am not a member of AFM or a active memeber at ATS. i dont see how i flame any of those threads

Banned ... that must be you ; I post freely on all on both CDF and AFM forums. I just posted on CDF and Key Pub forums right now !!
Its you who's apparently spamming haere on ATS by bringing up irrelavent, things no way related to the topic at hand.

I thought you got banned after all that spam you poasted at CDF. because you wont active anymore.

I suppose, that such flame bait remarks are all that you are capable of saying.

And this thread isn't about bashing china?

Oh... brother, that thread is on the Mig project -33 if you did'nt notice. And please to take note that the same crobato and Hyper that the very person has requested to reply have replied only confirming what i had stated.

did you forget to add this?

Who me? Me not qualified to answer that

And infact if you bother to check my first post on this thread, it includes a quote from the article written by crobato himself (chinese aviation expert).

you mean newsmax.

And on the next page he says something else. completly debutes anything you posted

etc. I infact stopped replying to this thread to avert a flame war after the replies by chinawhite became increasingly hostile and leaned towards flaming.

You stopped replying because you have nothing to reply with. putting articles written by journalist that are using already second hand material is nothing creditable

I appeal to one and all to stop giving links to other forums and quoting people out of context to initate a flame war and using this as an excuse to divert constructive discussion from the central topic.

Its funny that other forums see through his spamming and make re-marks like that to him, but on this site with american domianted moderators they seem not to care about people posting spam and trying to start a falme war?

Where are the moderators now?

Originally posted by chinawhite
And this thread isn't about bashing china?

No it is certainly not about bashing china or any such thing. I have alredy clarified this in my first post.

It is beyond me why you think this thread is about china bashing;
The claims posted are not my own but of reputed links and i only inted to discuss the same. Did you even bother to notice the question mark in the title of the thread ?

I thought you got banned after all that spam you poasted at CDF. because you wont active anymore.

And please - quit discussion stuff about other forums again. I am not banned anywhere.

You stopped replying because you have nothing to reply with. putting articles written by journalist that are using already second hand material is nothing creditable

Clear evidence - who's the one making personal attacks, flame throwing, etc ??

Its now official ... China has copied the Su-27

www.defensenews.com...

After years of denial, a Russian defense official conceded that China had produced its own "fake" version of the Su-27SK fighter jet in violation of intellectual property agreements.

n 1995, China secured a production license to build 200 Su-27SKs, dubbed J-11A, for $2.5 billion for the Shenyang Aircraft Corp. The deal required the aircraft to be outfitted with Russian avionics, radars and engines. Russia cancelled the arrangement at 95 aircraft in 2006 after it discovered that China was developing an indigenous version, J-11B, with Chinese avionics and systems.

China produced six J-11B fighters for testing, but despite efforts to produce a suitable replacement for the Russian engine, the new fighter was outfitted with the same AL-31F, said Andrei Chang, a China military specialist at the Kanwa Defense Center. One J-11A was outfitted with the indigenously-built WS10A Tai Hang turbofan engine, but the J-11Bs are still using Russian AL-31Fs due to technical difficulties, Chang said.

Pogosyan and Russian Defense Minister Anatoly Serdyukov traveled to Beijing in December to attend the 13th session of a Chinese-Russian joint commission on military and technical cooperation and apply pressure to Chinese officials. Ultimately, China agreed to protect intellectual property rights and stop illegally copying Russian military equipment.

"I think this was a big step to make this issue more transparent and more precise in our future discussions," said Pogosyan, who also serves as the general director of Sukhoi.

Russia fears that China would mass-produce cheaper export versions of the Su-27 for the international market, and China feared that Russia would cancel future orders for advanced arms, such as the Su-33 combat jet for China's aircraft carrier program, Chang said. Chinese violations of the end-user agreement would be particularly upsetting to Russia's long-time strategic partner India, if Pakistan buys the Chinese-built Su-27 version.

However, Pogosyan downplayed the quality of the Chinese effort, saying a copy of a copy would not be a good aircraft.

"If we speak about the copy of the airplanes, I think that in this case, the original will always be better than a slightly modified copy," he said. "The original made by the designer who developed the product is always better, and it is a better start for a new program with the original designer and developer than making a fake copy."

He said buying copies makes it difficult to overcome problems occurring during the lifetime of the aircraft, while the original developer knows from experience how to deal with these issues.

[m]Chang does not believe China will honor the intellectual property agreement, or any agreement with Russia, and will continue to develop the J-11B as a totally indigenous aircraft. However, China will move cautiously until it secures deals for the Su-33 carrier-based fighter. China is beginning to build its first aircraft carrier and needs Russian technology and experience, Chang said.