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China's very own plagiarized Su-27 ?

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posted on Sep, 16 2005 @ 12:36 PM
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It appears that China is striving to do to the Su-27 what it did to the Mig-21.

China appears to be about to start making its own Su-27 that it will call the J-11B (?) without license and may even put up the same for export (to countries like Pakistan, etc)

It will be powered by the WS-10 engine (developed over stolen American core designs) and will be equiped with Chinese missiles.

Check out these reports :


China’s desire to produce an "indigenized" version of the Su-27/J-11 fighter may be at the heart of decision not to complete a co-production contract for 200 fighters, but Irkut officials are skeptical that China’s Shenyang Aircraft Corporation can make such a fighter, meaning China will have to return to "kit" co-production. Sukhoi officials have noted China’s desire to do so since 2000 and to wit, Shenyang has been busy integrating Chinese radar and engines to form a new J-11 version, sometimes called J-11B. Evidence of China’s commitment to "indigenization" emerged in February 2005 in the form of Internet-source photos of a Y-8 transport modified with a J-11 nose, to test a Chinese fighter radar for this aircraft. Meanwhile Sukhoi has sought to interest China in Sukhoi-designed upgraded Su-27 models like the Su-27SK. The differing ambitions came to a head in early 2004 when Shenyang apparently told Sukhoi it would not buy more than 105 co-production "kits" out of 200 contracted for in a widely reported 1996 contract. Reports indicate China had an original option to stop kit procurement at 105. But an Irkut official notes that China will have great difficulty fully reproducing the Su-27/J-11, especially in copying software, avionics and flight control systems. While this may be debatable, Irkut official note China may not be able to accomplish this task until after 2010, when Sukhoi will be fielding a 4++ generation versions. While Irkut banks on logic returning Shenyang to kit coproduction, nationalism may impel China to continue down its chosen path.


www.strategycenter.net...


^^ Y-8 Modified To Support J-11 Radar Tests: Photos of this new modified Y-8 emerged in early 2005, indicating the PLA’s investment in an “indigenous” version of the J-11/Su-27 fighter. However, some Russians believe that China will not succeed with this project, meaning a return to component purchase from Russia.

KANWA SAYS :

Kanwa News April 27 2005: China seems to have started testing its indigenous developed Su-27 fire control radar. One Y8 transport plane with a designation number of 079 is said being used as the platform for the testing.

This indicates that the reason for China not to rely on Russia in the upgrading of Su-27SK is that China has been using its own resources to upgrade Su27, especially the fighter radar system. The Su27-SK fighter transferred to China from Russia uses H001E airborne radar system, whose technological standard can no longer meet the needs of future air
combat. Because of this, by the end of 2004, China had just assembled a total of 60 Su27SK fighters, with 45 sets of Su27SK parts still in storage in Shenyang. Russia has provided China with different upgrading plans of Su27SK, one of which is to install the new generation SUV27E weapon control system capable of using R77 active radar to guide air-to-air missiles, and to outfit on the fighter the TKS-2 data link system compatible with that on Su30MKK. The two sides have not finalized the agreement,
however.

China’s testing of new radar system on No.079 Y8 Experiment Aircraft also suggests that J-11 will adopt the avionic systems with China’s indigenous radar at the core in order to enhance the compatibility of China-made weapon systems, including the PL12 air to air missile.

Kanwa predicts that the radar system that is now under testing on No.079 Experiment Aircraft entails the following information. First, in recent years, China has been paying greater attention to the research of Russian radar technologies. China imported 3 sets of Zhemchung multi-role radar systems and at least 20 sets of 980mm-diametered mechanical radar antennae. Sources from the Russian military industry claim that China earnestly aspires to develop its own multi-role radar on the basis of fully digesting the Russian radar technologies. An authoritative source points out that China is testing on its own the imported Chemchung airborne radars. As a consequence, it is possible that No.079 experiment aircraft is testing Zhemchung for upgrading J-11.

Secondly, the ultimate motive for China to have just imported a few sets of Russian radar systems is to probe into and explore the patterns of Russian radar development, and to develop China’s own radar on the basis of this. For this purpose, China also imported ZHUK-8II and two sets of KAPPYO radars in the last ten years. Besides, China has introduced the 1473 radar for J-10A fighters and the new 147 serial radars for future
upgrading of Su-27. Thus there is another possibility that the radar system under testing on 079 is one of the new 147 serial radars developed on the basis of combining the Russian and Israeli technologies. Future J11 fighters fitted with this radar system may be renamed J11-2.

Kanwa has learned that the J11 upgrading plan includes the installation of new engine and new radar systems, aiming at a complete ‘reborn’ of the fighter. As Kanwa predicted earlier, one WS10A engine has already been fitted on a Su27SK for testing purpose.

Chinese official media have confirmed this report. Eventually, China hopes to use WS10 serial engines on both J10A and Su27SK fighters.

Kanwa speculates that the above upgrading plan may be divided into different stages.The first stage may be the installation of new radar system. Though J-11 may use the China-made radar, its avionic system still needs technological support from Russia.



[SIZE=4]Chinese Engineer Cracks Russian Su-27 Fighter Production Codes[/SIZE]
A 33-year old Chinese software engineer, Zhu Rong Gong, has duplicated the secret fire-control software and systems integration for Russia’s Su-27 series of aircraft, giving his country’s drive towards the fully autonomous production of this potent weapon a sharp spurt.

Zhu, who works at China’s Luoyang Institute of Electro-Optical Equipment (AVIC Research Institute Number 613), has won many awards, including a personal commendation from Defense Minister General Chi Haotian.

In February 1996, Russia sold full Su-27 production rights to China for US$2.5 billion, but withheld the production secrets of certain key technologies, such as the software used to control the aircraft’s sophisticated integrated fire control system, which were supplied only in “black box” form.

Initially, China completed its first domestic production of SU-27s, which the Chinese air force designates J-11, in late 1998, from imported components. By the end of this year, its output is expected to reach ten aircraft and then rise to 15 annually. The Chinese estimate eventual domestic production going up to 100 per year, although Western estimates put this total at no more than 10 to 20 aircraft per year with substantial Russian assistance.

During August 1999, Beijing and Moscow signed an agreement for the purchase of 40 or more Su-30MKK (i.e. modernizirovannyi kommerchesky dla Kitaya, or ‘modernized commercially for China’) fighter-bombers from the Irktusk Aircraft Production Association in a contract worth up to another US$2.5 billion. A co-production agreement was subsequently made for an additional 250 aircraft, most likely at the Shenyang facility, and the purchase of a second batch of 40 constructed aircraft.

The Su-30MKK is a sophisticated long-range attack version of the Su-27 that can deliver a wide variety of ordnance.

The Russians counted on their “bans and restrictions”, coupled with China’s practical limitations, to hold Beijing back from modernizing and exporting non-licensed versions of the SU-27 and SU-30 variants without their help. They relied on the fact that the AL-31F engines and all the sets of radio-electronic equipment for these planes had to come from Russia.

However, Chinese intelligence has actively pursued the secrets of the aircraft sub-systems Russia is withholding. During early 1999, a plot to steal key Sukhoi Su-27 technologies denied to China was reportedly foiled by the Russian Federal Security Service; on May 1, 1999, the Russian Far East Military District Court charged two Chinese nationals and five Russians with stripping two sets of equipment from Russian operational aircraft and from the Komsomolsk-na-Amur Aviation Production Works, where the Su-27 is manufactured. Most of the stolen items were believed recovered.

Zhu Rong Gong’s duplication feat, has contributed significantly towards China mass-producing its own updated and improved versions of the Su-27 fighter aircraft design, free of dependence on Moscow.

www.debka.com...


_____________________________________________________



J-11 “Indigenization” This Sukhoi official was also willing to talk about the PLA’s desire to “indigenize” the J-11 with substantial new Chinese-made components, like radar, engines and avionics. He said that the PLA was capable of doing all these things but that it would take the PLA “ten years” to realize an indigenized J-11. But when they did so, he expected that the PLA would also sell this fighter. This new J-11 is expected to carry PLA-made weapons like the SD-10 active-guided AAM, precision attack weapons, radar and a new “glass” cockpit of digitized avionics. The main goal of the program is to make a fighter capable of both fighter and attack missions—something the baseline Su-27SK/J-11 cannot do. This individual also confirmed comments by a Sukhoi official at the 2002 Zhuhai show that Shenyang J-11s have a better production finish than those made at the KnAAPO factory in Komsomolsk.

www.uscc.gov...

_________________________________________________________________


After three years of delay on the Russian side,[24] in 1996, Sukhoi and the Shenyang Aircraft Co. (SAC) entered into a contract to co-produce up to 200 Su-27SKs. As it is “made” in China, it earns the designation J (Jian, for fighter) -11. In late 2000 a high Shenyang official noted that not all 200 Su-27s might be built[25] and there was other speculation that production would shift to more modern Su-30s. However, by late 2002 production was reaching an impressive rate, with a Russian source stating that Shenyang had at that point built “several dozen” Su-27SKs, or at least 48.[26] Nearly a year later Russian sources noted that another 48 had been assembled from 2002 to 2003.[27] If this rate is sustained the 1996 contract could be fulfilled by 2005-2006. Again, Russian sources say that following the completion of the 1996 contract, there will be a second co-production contract.[28] At this point the number of new J-11s for the second contract is not known, but the longevity of SAC’s J-11 program appears assured.
Initially J-11s would be made from KnAAPO supplied kits with progressively increasing Chinese content. The first two which emerged in 1998 were said to be in such bad shape that KnAAPO engineers had to rebuild them. Starting in 2002 Russian sources noted that the production finish for SAC J-11s was better than that of KnAAPO.

But it also appears that the PLAAF may more ambitious plans for the J-11. In mid-2002 Russian sources indicated Shenyang was also pursuing another multi-role version of the J-11 with high PRC content. This was confirmed at the 2003 Moscow airshow. This second version apparently will feature a new Chinese multi-mode radar, avionics and possibly the WS-10A turbofan—which was tested on a J-11 in 2002. The new J-11 version is also expected to be armed with PLA-made weapons, to include the SD-10 active-guided AAM, and very likely, a new SRAAM in development, plus a range of attack munitions. To the disappointment of some Sukhoi officials, this Shenyang version will not draw on Sukhoi intentions to produce a similar upgrade with Russian components, but much sooner. Perhaps reflecting “sour grapes,” or considered doubts, a Russian official noted that it would take Shenyang “ten years” to produce an “indigenized” version of the J-11.

Should this version prove a success, it would be a good candidate for the PLA Navy’s first carrier-borne fighter. In contrast to the J-10, which is also identified as a candidate fighter for a future PLA Navy carrier, the J-11 does have a proven carrier-capable sibling in the Su-33. A J-11 with higher thrust WS-10A engines might be able to handle the Russian-style ski-jump launching. And as it built the Russian Navy’s Su-33s, KnAAPO would be a ready source for potential carrier-related modifications for the J-11.

While it may take another 10 years for Shenyang to fully “indigenize” the J-11, once they do a [SIZE=3]Russian source expects that China will market the fighter.[/SIZE] Nevertheless, for a co-production program whose prospects for success were initially greeted with great skepticism in many Western quarters, Shenyang has made impressive progress and appears to be close to producing a new Chinese version of the J-11. The Su-27SK/J-11 will be next in a long line of “Sinicized” Russian fighter designs.

www.uscc.gov... ________________________________________________________________



[SIZE=3]crobato says[/SIZE]



Debka.com reported that a Chinese software engineer has manage break the software for the SU-27's fire control radar. This maybe a step forward either in reverse engineering the radar or adapting the use of local guided missiles to it.

A monumental first flight. A J-11 equipped with one WS-10A engine in one side and the AL-31F in the other takes off. Later, the J-11 activates the WS-10A in midair, and for the first time, takes flight on its own power.

Chinese reports indicate that local content of J-11 production has now reached 60%. 10 to 15 kits were delivered for the year, and the entire 80 to 120 kits may be completed by next year. From then on, Shenyang plans to allow the entire plane to be made from 100% indigenous components, including engines like the WS-10A, home grown radar, and use Chinese missiles like the SD-10 and YJ series.


www.china-defense.com...
__________________________________________________________


Since 2002 Sukhoi spokesmen have commented on China's desire to upgrade the J-11 to a multirole fighter, and even to radically modify the J-11 to carry Chinese-made radar, engines and weapons-that it would eventually export as its own. Shenyang has tested the WS-10A turbofan on the J-11 and a J-11 mockup at Shenyang's headquarters features the Louyang PL-12 active-guided air-to-air missile and Kh-31 supersonic anti-ship or anti-radar missiles-at least indicating its ambitions. A future J-11 contract must then reconcile PLA ambitions with Russia's equal desire to sell the components for China's J-11 multirole upgrade.


www.strategycenter.net...
________________________________________________________

[SIZE=3]HuiTong says : [/SIZE]

The first two J-11s rolled out in December 1998 using the kit supplied by KnAAPO but were reported to have suffered quality problems. An annual production rate between 15 and 20 was achieved by 2003. A total of 95 kits were delivered from KnAAPO by summer 2004. The use of demostically made parts will begin after the first 60 are assembled using Russian kits and eventually 60-70% of the parts will be manufactured in China (excluding AL-31F engine, which was denied by Russia for the license). The resulting aircraft is dubbed J-11A which also features at least two color MFDs. With an upgraded N001VE radar (being able to engage two targets simultaneously using R-77) this variant can also carry the newly acquired R-27RE1 SARH AAM with an extended range of 66km. A further upgrade program (J-11B) may include a Chinese multifunction PD radar (Type 1474/KLJ4?) compatible with PL-8/PL-12 AAM & YJ-91 ARM, and replacing AL-31F with the indigenous WS-10A. One WS-10A (13,200kg class) turbofan was successfully tested on a J-11 testbed (currently belonging to CFTE) in June 2002. The first J-11B prototype powered by WS-10A flew in 2003. Initial batches of J-11s are believed to have entered the service with PLAAF 1st Division in Liaoning Province. Another J-11 unit has been established at the PLAAF 7th Division in Hebei Province.

mil.jschina.com.cn...
____________________________________________________

And this is what China did a few months back :


[SIZE=4]China Ends Su-27 License[/SIZE]

According to the report of the Russian news website mosnews.com on 2 November, China has suspended the production of Su-27SK fighter jets under their Russian license, Russia’s Vremya Novostej newspaper reported on Tuesday, Nov. 2.

The license to produce 200 fighter jets was purchased by China in 1996. The conditions of the contract stipulated that the jets would be assembled at Chinese plants using Russian components. The value of the contract amounted to $2.5 billion. However, after assembling 95 jets out of the planned 200, the Chinese side addressed the Sukhoi Construction Bureau with a request to stop deliveries of the assembly kits. The request was made in May, and neither side disclosed the reasons for the contract being suspended.


www.sinodefence.com...

_____________________________________________________

Thus as one can see from the US Govt research papers, journalist reports, comments from Sukhoi officials, comments from crobato and other Chinese aviation experts and China's acts of cracking Su-27 codes and ending licences it is obvious that China will come up with a plagerized variant of the the Su-27 in the near future and may perhaps export the same as speculate.

This illegal copy of the Su-27 in most probability be powered by the WS-10 engine. Some say this engine is developed over stolen American engine core technology while others say it is a copy of the Russian Al-31 FN.


.....WS-10 turbofan based on the CFM56 engine core technology
mil.jschina.com.cn...
_ -_-_

Russian arms industry sources have disclosed that China is close to mastering the complex skills required to build(reverse engineer) the the Al-31 engine.

on page 7 of this pdf (in the chinese copying section) >> www.sipri.org...
______________________________
Russia reportedly had denied China the license to produce the engine locally. As the result, an indigenous engine WS-10A (came up)
mil.jschina.com.cn...
_____________________________
The CAC is also trying to replace the Russian AL-31F with the indigenously developed WS-10A, which is said to be a Chinese copy of the AL-31FN.
www.sinodefence.com...
_______________________________
China has been working for a decade to manufacture their own version of this, the WS10A. China has been striving for decades to develop the ability to manufacture high-performance jet engines. The WS10A is something of an acid test for them, as it is a powerful military engine, and a complex piece of work. Russia refused to license China to produce the AL-31FN, so the Chinese stole as much of the technology as they could and designed the WS10A. This engine has been tested, but apparently still has quality control and performance problems.
www.strategypage.com...


Here is a picture of the J-11 with a WS-10A.


And another of the WS-10A on the J-11:


It may also be armed with Chinese missiles that are derrived from / or copies of Israeli or Russian missiles.

Here are some of the missiles it may have :


PL-12 or SD-10
The PL-12 was said to be derived from the Italian Aspide technology and integrated with active radar-homing seeker technology obtained from Russia.

The missile was developed indigenously, but also with helps from foreign manufacturers. Several Russian missile and subsystem developers are reportedly supporting the program, with much of the missile utilizing components from the R-77 (AA-12 Adder).

In 1996 China revealed an active radar-homing seeker AMR-1, which is possibly based on Russian technology. Claimed to be developed for the new generation active radar-homing MRAAM, the AMR-1 seeker or its developed variant could be used to guide the SD-10.
www.sinodefence.com...


PL-11
Chinese copy of Italian Alenia's Aspide missile (which inturn was derived from the U.S. AIM-7E Sparrow) that it got in the late 1980s
www.sinodefence.com...

PL-9
Apart from its control surfaces the PL-9 is almost identical to the Israeli Python-3, which was developed from the AIM-9L. The one major difference, according to information in Jane's All the World's Aircraft, is that the PL-9 has only about one-third the range of the Python 3.

China has improved upon the PL-9 by marrying it to an apparent copy of the Arsenel helmet sight from the R-73.
www.sinodefence.com...

PL-8
The PL-8 infrared homing short-range air-to-air missile is a Chinese copy of the Israeli Python-3.
www.sinodefence.com...

The PL-4
The PL-4 is a Chinese copy of the U.S. AIM-7B Sparrow.
www.sinodefence.com...


Note : This thread is not intended for flaming or trolling but i only wish to discuss claims by credible links with an open mind.

Regards,
Stealth Spy




posted on Sep, 16 2005 @ 03:46 PM
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Not really suprising. It's their way.



posted on Sep, 16 2005 @ 04:08 PM
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Originally posted by jetsetter
Not really suprising. It's their way.


Once upon a time it used to be the American way too
It's how you build empires you take what you can and buy whatever you can't take.



posted on Sep, 16 2005 @ 04:38 PM
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Originally posted by sardion2000

Originally posted by jetsetter
Not really suprising. It's their way.


Once upon a time it used to be the American way too
It's how you build empires you take what you can and buy whatever you can't take.


anyone watch the documentry on the space race thats on channel 2?
starts off with how americans and russians started off coping nazi things?



posted on Sep, 16 2005 @ 06:18 PM
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Originally posted by Stealth Spy
It appears that China is striving to do to the Su-27 what it did to the Mig-21.

China appears to be about to start making its own Su-27 that it will call the J-11B (?) without license and may even put up the same for export (to countries like Pakistan, etc)

It will be powered by the WS-10 engine (developed over stolen American core designs) and will be equiped with Chinese missiles.


ok lets not flame here..................................

If you read these articles the J-11B is a upgrade package with chinese componets.

China makes the J-11 out of kits russia provides. if we started making our own kits it would cost a fortune to make a new factory.
China buys these kits for 7-15million. this is about the same cost as making a Mig-21 in chinese production lines


Its china version of the Su-27SMT. because the J-11/SU-27sk lacked groud-attack it is useless in a war after china wins air superoity. With its masive payload and long range it would have been a waste.

Now with this upgrade it will be able to fire ASM and ATG missles bombs.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The WS-10A uses technology that china brought from france. the CFM-56 from france.



----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


This is your own article if you bother to read.


This indicates that the reason for China not to rely on Russia in the upgrading of Su-27SK is that China has been using its own resources to upgrade Su27, especially the fighter radar system.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Chinese Engineer Cracks Russian Su-27 Fighter Production Codes
A 33-year old Chinese software engineer, Zhu Rong Gong, has duplicated the secret fire-control software and systems integration for Russia’s Su-27 series of aircraft, giving his country’s drive towards the fully autonomous production of this potent weapon a sharp spurt.



Before china cracked the codes for the su-27 fighter it could only fire russian misslies. so china had to stock up on russian missles in very large warhouses.

Now they can use missiles china made herself

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



[edit on 16-9-2005 by chinawhite]



posted on Sep, 16 2005 @ 06:31 PM
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.....WS-10 turbofan based on the CFM56 engine core technology
mil.jschina.com.cn...


This is a civillan engine... you need to design from fresh to make this practical or usful .


Core technology as in the blade fans.

and i cant find where he wrote that....................




Russian arms industry sources have disclosed that China is close to mastering the complex skills required to build(reverse engineer) the the Al-31 engine.

on page 7 of this pdf (in the chinese copying section) >> www.sipri.org...



Did you write this yourself because your link does not work





Russia reportedly had denied China the license to produce the engine locally. As the result, an indigenous engine WS-10A (came up)
mil.jschina.com.cn...


Here is what it really said...............


. As the result, an indigenous engine (WS-10A) may be fitted later during the serial production.



thanks for not-including information and adding your own




The CAC is also trying to replace the Russian AL-31F with the indigenously developed WS-10A, which is said to be a Chinese copy of the AL-31FN.
www.sinodefence.com...
_______________________________


Which is said...........................................


This amounts to nothing but a rumour


NR

posted on Sep, 16 2005 @ 08:32 PM
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actually i got a article from this magazine which said iran bought 30 J-10's from China.


www.aeroflight.co.uk...



posted on Sep, 16 2005 @ 08:34 PM
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J-10's are an indiginous chinese design

J-11's are the Chinese Su-27

It's not a big deal for China to sell their own designs.



posted on Sep, 16 2005 @ 08:35 PM
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wait, i thought the Chinese got full license from the Russian's to manufacture J-11's on their own


NR

posted on Sep, 16 2005 @ 08:35 PM
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This is the actuall J-10 video, can fly well and looks amazing to me.


www.china-military.org...



[edit on 16-9-2005 by NR]



posted on Sep, 16 2005 @ 09:59 PM
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We have a licence to build 200 Su-27SKs under the name J-11. After a certain number, China added self made improvements and improved parts under the name J-11A. J-11B is the totally indignous Su-27 with precision strike capability and major maritime strike capabilities, there is also a major weight reduction because the J-11B body shall have alot of light weight strong materials (whats that word again?) which increases integrity of the plane while lowering weight. J-11B will use WS-10A with 3D TVC, domestic designed missiles and many stuff that Su-27s wouldn't have.

The sending of Su-27 kits have stopped after 95-110 kits out of the licenced 200 kits were sent. China might not be interested in the Su-27 kits and might just jump to making J-11Bs by ourselves in a year or two.

[edit on 16-9-2005 by COWlan]



posted on Sep, 16 2005 @ 11:54 PM
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Originally posted by KKing123
wait, i thought the Chinese got full license from the Russian's to manufacture J-11's on their own


they did. but not to export


shall have alot of light weight strong materials (whats that word again?)


composites?

[edit on 16-9-2005 by chinawhite]



posted on Sep, 16 2005 @ 11:55 PM
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Originally posted by NR
actually i got a article from this magazine which said iran bought 30 J-10's from China.
www.aeroflight.co.uk...


i hope iran does get the J-10. its a good ally



posted on Sep, 17 2005 @ 12:08 AM
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I think any country that willingly gives technology to a nation with the technical capability to reverse engineer it is just asking to have it stolen personally, I dont like seeing China armed with an advanced fighter like the J-11 (or J-11B as it seems to be called) in larger numbers, but i think russia has no place to bitch about it (not that they really seem to be doing it)



posted on Sep, 17 2005 @ 08:52 AM
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Originally posted by chinawhite
The WS-10A uses technology that china brought from france. the CFM-56 from france.


That is very very untrue >>

Please read this US govt website



In 1983, the PRC legally acquired two General Electric CFM-56 jet engines, ostensibly to analyze the engines for a potential civil aircraft upgrade program. In the course of the export licensing process, the Defense Department insisted on restricting the PRC's use of the engines.

Defense Department officials were concerned because the CFM-56 hot sections are identical to those used in the engines that power the U.S. F-16 and B-1B military aircraft.

The PRC later claimed that the CFM-56 engines were destroyed in a fire.89 More likely, however, is that the PRC violated the U.S. end-use conditions by reverse engineering part of the CFM-56 to develop a variant for use in combat aircraft.

Despite the suspected reverse engineering of the two General Electric jet engines that were exported in 1983, G.E. reportedly signed a contract in March 1991 with the Shenyang Aero-Engine Corporation for the manufacture of parts for CFM-56 engines.91 According to one source, Shenyang "put in place quality and advanced manufacturing systems to meet US airworthiness standards."

The PRC aggressively attempted to illegally acquire General Electric's F404 engine, which powers the U.S. F-18 fighter.93 The PRC likely intended to use the F404 jet engine in its F-8 fighter.94 The PRC succeeded in acquiring some F404 technology through an indirect route by purchasing the LM-2500, a commercial General Electric gas turbine containing the F404 hot section.


Plaese read this >> www.access.gpo.gov...



This is your own article if you bother to read.


The article is not mine but from credible sources, and i have read all of them and i suggest you read the several references i have made before making statements like that.



Before china cracked the codes for the su-27 fighter it could only fire russian misslies. so china had to stock up on russian missles in very large warhouses.Now they can use missiles china made herself


Another violation of the terms & conditions stipulated by Sukhoi.



posted on Sep, 17 2005 @ 08:55 AM
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Originally posted by KKing123
wait, i thought the Chinese got full license from the Russian's to manufacture J-11's on their own


only a fixed number and it cant be exported to 3rd countries.

Also cracking codes is not allowed in the license.

China's seems to be violationg several clauses.....just like it has to illegally copy several other weaponry.



posted on Sep, 17 2005 @ 09:01 AM
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Originally posted by chinawhite
Core technology as in the blade fans.

Please do a bit more research before posting on such things.



Did you write this yourself because your link does not work

Here is the corrected link >> scroll down >> Russian arms industry sources have disclosed that China is close to mastering the complex skills required to build the the Al-31 engine.
www.sipri.org...

(it takes some time to load; please be patient till it loads fully)




The CAC is also trying to replace the Russian AL-31F with the indigenously developed WS-10A, which is said to be a Chinese copy of the AL-31FN.
www.sinodefence.com...
_______________________________

Which is said...........................................


This amounts to nothing but a rumour


and what does this amount to ??

China has been working for a decade to manufacture their own version of this, the WS10A. China has been striving for decades to develop the ability to manufacture high-performance jet engines. The WS10A is something of an acid test for them, as it is a powerful military engine, and a complex piece of work. Russia refused to license China to produce the AL-31FN, so the Chinese stole as much of the technology as they could and designed the WS10A. This engine has been tested, but apparently still has quality control and performance problems.

www.strategypage.com...



posted on Sep, 17 2005 @ 09:02 AM
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Also : Thanks to intelgurl for the applause and 500 pts for this thread.



posted on Sep, 17 2005 @ 10:48 AM
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[SIZE=3]sinodefence.com, a very credible and popular site on Chinese weaponry says :[/SIZE]


It also appears that the PLAAF may have more ambitious plans for the J-11. In mid-2002 Russian sources indicated Shenyang was also pursuing another multirole version of the J-11 (possibly designated J-11B) with much higher Chinese-made content. In particular SAC wishes to replace the Tikomirov NIIP N001 radar with a Chinese equivalent model Shedian-10, and the Lyulka-Saturn AL-31F engines with a local version Woshan-10A (WS-10A). The new J-11 version is also expected to be armed with Chinese indigenous weapons, including the PL-12 (SD-10) active radar-homing medium-range air-to-air missile and very likely, a new SRAAM in development, plus a range of ground attack munitions. It may take another ten years for SAC to fully indigenise the J-11. Once the design matures, SAC is likely going to market the fighter for export customers.

www.sinodefence.com...



posted on Sep, 17 2005 @ 12:37 PM
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Another decade, PAK-FA will be out soon and the Russia will be busy marketing it. At least Russia's Su-27 & Su-30 sales will not suffer for the time being. The already cheap Su-27, with the introduction of chinese production, will be made available juz for anyone who has a backyard big enough to put it.


Originally posted by chinawhite
i hope iran does get the J-10. its a good ally


Heehee...who's the one who is so against Taiwan procuring "advanced" weaponry like the latest F-16, missile defense and ships?



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