My apologies to all who were offended that this went up as a "Conspiracy" news story, instead of as an Op/Ed.

Soficrow, I tried to argue with you on a reasonable basis just before you came up with this cock-a-mamie thread. I give up, it's as Muaddib said and this thread ices that cake--you have become truely delusional. Someone on ATS has a signature saying that I think may apply. I'm not sure of the exact wording, but the effect is to say "never argue with an idiot, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience".

Originally posted by Astronomer68
I'm not sure of the exact wording, but the effect is to say "never argue with an idiot, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience".

Was that really necessary?

Its an Op/Ed and its Soficrow's opinion. We are all more than welcome to authour our own differing opinions if you disagree with this one. You are also well within your ATSNN rights to write in this thread why you disagree with Soficrow's opinion.

Saying that she has no right to post an Op/Ed. is losing the plot or has no business posting this material here is incorrect.

Please can we remain on topic

Astro -

I take it you accept the sources, but don't get how the picture fits together?

RE: Your trying to argue with me on a 'reasonable basis.'

Hmmm. You mean about how Halliburton is best in its class, and Houston is a great self-sustaining port, not dependent on government funding? That 'argument'?


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research says a major catastrophe is imminent? and what do you call the current catastrophe? minor?


the idea that this was all done on purpose is insane. the slow response? stupidity and proof positive that, in the event of an attack on a major city, we are doomed, but it was not intentional.

YES, New Orleans should be leveled and rebuilt from scratch, what do you think the $51 Billion appropriation funding is for......

Just that, demo and reconstruction. And who gets the shaft? The poor and elderly who had no insurance. Their properties will go into default or be re-claimed by the Goverment under some obscure disaster clause. Then sold to a land developer who will get a subsidy from the Goverment for the reclaimation work. After its finished will then spin off the land to a private building contractor who will re-develop the land into condo's mini malls, office buildings etc.

And New Orleans will be re-built, they should however hang a new sign on all the enterances to the city saying "UNDER NEW OWNERSHIP".

Originally posted by Crakeur
research says a major catastrophe is imminent? and what do you call the current catastrophe? minor?

The format described the situation that occurred BEFORE Katrina.

the idea that this was all done on purpose is insane.

People do insane sociopathic things all the time - most often in the name of efficiency and expediency, and for profit.

the slow response? stupidity and proof positive that, in the event of an attack on a major city, we are doomed, but it was not intentional.

You obviously did not read the references. The plan was in place. The drills worked. When tragedy struck - eye witnesses say support personnel were in place - but they apparently were acting on orders to do nothing, except "provide the appearance that the situation was handled."

What the heck is so "Delusional" about what Soficrow has written!?!?
Looks pretty factual to me...? Look! He even posted sources! Pretty good ones (as far as I know).

I'm not saying he's right, or wrong...that's why they're called "THEORIES", but...he has definitely compiled all of the facts necessary to write-up a pretty solid theory.

well let's see, the levee system was under repair prior to the storm and, with the potential for a breach always a threat, having equipment around the levee is pretty damned normal.

you might as well go all out and say that bush and his cronies were sitting around their weather machine conjuring a category 5 hurricane and the idea that the storm might not be strong enough made them think they should tear the levee down as well as create the storm with their evil weather machine (pinky in mouth please).

lastly the engineers have popped a hole in the levee to assist in the flow of water OUT of the city. oddly enough, there are some areas of new orleans where this is possible.

the idea that someone could conjure up an idea as perposterous as our government actually having a plan in place that will be enacted in the event of a storm coming along that is big enough and strong enough and, doggonit, positioned correctly, is frghtening.

to spend all that money coming up with the plan and then sitting around and crossing your fingers, hoping for the one in a 100 years storm is a serious waste of time and effort. the only way it would work would be if you could control the weather (back to the pinky in the mouth). you can't. they ca't. they didn't.

I prefer the theory that the actions, or lack thereof are actually an attempt to steer more money to fema and the military response teams. it just makes more sense.


robertfenix, the majority of the people you are seeing on tv didn't own their homes. they were, most likely, rentals. the median income in the 9th ward is about $7500. they are not spending their money on insurance. many of them probably didn't even have the ability to get up to date information on the storm rolling their way. flood insurance in an area like that is impossible to get anyway. federal flood of $250,000? the owner of the home would have to apply for it, not the renter. even if they did own, odds are against them having the insurance.

Originally posted by Crakeur

lastly the engineers have popped a hole in the levee to assist in the flow of water OUT of the city. oddly enough, there are some areas of new orleans where this is possible.

The stated rationale was to redirect flood waters into unflooded areas to take the strain off.

the idea that someone could conjure up an idea as perposterous as our government actually having a plan in place that will be enacted in the event of a storm coming along that is big enough and strong enough and, doggonit, positioned correctly, is frghtening.

True, but entirely plausible. What happened is exactly what was predicted to happen - and such storms striking NO are virtually guaranteed, at some point in the hurricane season.

to spend all that money coming up with the plan and then sitting around and crossing your fingers, hoping for the one in a 100 years storm

You haven't been paying attention. What happened is exactly what FEMA warned would happen, every single year of Bush's presidency, starting in 2001.

robertfenix, the majority of the people you are seeing on tv didn't own their homes. they were, most likely, rentals. the median income in the 9th ward is about $7500. they are not spending their money on insurance. many of them probably didn't even have the ability to get up to date information on the storm rolling their way. flood insurance in an area like that is impossible to get anyway. ...odds are against them having the insurance.

Yep. The rock and the hard place.

Originally posted by robertfenix
YES, New Orleans should be leveled and rebuilt from scratch, what do you think the $51 Billion appropriation funding is for......

Actually I will agree with you to some extend, but the 51 billion is not for reconstruction, but for purchasing of needed items for housing including mobile homes to places the refugees like camps.

Also conservatives Republican in the senate opposed to this money in the bases that it can go to fraudulent hands because it will not be accountability to it.

Most of the money is going into the hands of FEMA, and as usual may end on somebody's pockets.

The juicy next appropriation funds will be in the amount of 100 billion dollars and that will be toward the Reconstruction and contracts awarded.

I guess I don't blame the conservative Republicans that opposed to the way the first amounts of money has been awarded, because to tell you the truth it can be used for anything.

Conspiracy At All Levels

If we accept the premise of this theory, then we are asserting that Mayor Nagin, Governor Blanco and President Bush -- and potentially thousands of others involved in various ways, including state and federal legislators of both major political parties -- all conspired to destroy New Orleans for profit.

I think I will need more evidence supporting such a broad-based accusation before accepting it as plausible.

Yes, it does strain credulity, particularly in light of the partisan rancor accompanying all this. Unless, of course, that is contrived, for which there is, ironically enough, more supporting evidence than not.

Real conspiracies exist, but they are vastly outnumbered by fictional ones.

Barring clearer evidence of collusion among the many, many people who would necessarily be involved in such a scheme, this theory seems to fall more into the latter category than the former.

Originally posted by Majic
Conspiracy At All Levels

If we accept the premise of this theory, then we are asserting that Mayor Nagin, Governor Blanco and President Bush -- and potentially thousands of others involved in various ways, including state and federal legislators of both major political parties -- all conspired to destroy New Orleans for profit.

Not at all. Such conspiracies require only a small group pulling strings, with others manipulated to support the plan often without being aware that there is a plan.

...You should know this Majic - tis the essence of a successful conspiracy.

Yes, it does strain credulity, particularly in light of the partisan rancor

...that would be broad-based multi-party partisan rancor, I take it?

Unless, of course, that is contrived, for which there is, ironically enough, more supporting evidence than not.

Could you run that by me again, please? Maybe with a standard predicate - verb relationship?

Real conspiracies exist, but they are vastly outnumbered by fictional ones.

No kidding?!? I didn't know that! I honestly did not!

Barring clearer evidence of collusion among the many, many people who would necessarily be involved in such a scheme, this theory seems to fall more into the latter category than the former.

Multi-party partisan rancor, and clarity of presentation notwithstanding, of course.



[edit on 8-9-2005 by soficrow]

is not even that it's preposterous.

The real problem is that most of these "big institutions" from the federal government down through Haliburton, et al don't think the way you imagine.

Most major institution's profit margins are extremely sensative to macroeconomic fluctuations.

This is the same problem I have with the idea the Bush & Co masterminded the 9-11 attacks. Frankly, the terrorists on September 11 were wildly successsful. The Stock Market has taken a beating from which it has never recovered.

The same with the flooding of New Orleans. This wreck could be the main cause for "popping the housing bubble" that the fed is worried about. And that would be a disaster for most of the people you blame for Katrina in your op-ed piece.

And don't forget that a lot of those flooded buildings were used as collateral for other residential and business loans. Suddenly, a large chunk of the southern economy, and especially the oil sector, just got de-underwritten (I know it's not a word until now.)

I think you'd be hard pressed to come up with a business model for any of the corporate greedsters where they make a profit from a stagnating economy.

Not that people aren't capable of such things. But I cannot imagine them taking a risk with their billions, risk losing it all, just for a profit margin of a couple per cent.

The Curse Of The Critic

The Hidden Hand has many fingers.

To perceive its designs, however, requires understanding its motives, and that is not information which is permitted to make its way into the headlines unchecked.

This may all be a grand plot, to be sure, but it may also be little more than a bureaucratic variant of the Tragedy of the Commons -- and there is a great deal to suggest exactly that.

Without clearer indications supporting conspiracy versus incompetence, allegations of a willful blood-for-money exchange are no more than speculation.

Of course, this is ATSNN, and like ATS itself, conspiracies and cover-ups are the name of the game.

My comments indicate skepticism, but I encourage further investigation of this theory by those who may find it appealing.

Should a clearer pattern supported by credible evidence emerge, I may be among those who finds it more appealing.

Until then, however, my services regarding this topic are limited to those of a critic, and though such a role is often underappreciated, it is vital to the sustenance of reasoned discussion.

Hence my occasional offers to temporarily fill that role by way of comment.

Too Lazy To Leap

My current assessment is that the theory is interesting (I did bother to comment on it, after all), but relies too heavily on speculation and logical dissonance to convince me of its veracity.

That can change, but such a change will require a clearer pattern of evidence than I am seeing so far.

My assessment is nothing more than my opinion, and like I said, if anyone disagrees, I encourage them to dig deeper and see what turns up, if they want to.

In my experience, such endeavors are always educational, if nothing else.

While I don't necessarily agree with soficrow's conclusion, I do agree that there is more to this than meets the eye. Her post is a excellent example of the sort of research that makes ATS great. We need more of those posts, not fewer.

I agree with everything up to "Strategy" in the initial post.

Those dots are still being connected, though I think the analysis connects many of them. It does look like New Orleans was probably "written-off" for some reason. The evidence is pointing to it.

Why would the powers that be risk their profits?

When you profit from death and destruction letting a natural disaster happen (not convinced on the weather machine yet) is good for profits and the military-industrial complex trumps other financial interests.

The Dow closed at 10595.93 today.
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edit: Dow closing number

[edit on 9/8/2005 by Gools]

Don't let ostriches with their heads in the sand get to you soficrow. All things proven generally start out as theories or opinions, which in time prove to be true. Your theory is as viable as the next. The government clearly doesn't give a damn about us, and your theory is alot more feasable to me than the more wild ones like them constantly monitoring us by hidden video cameras in our phones and on-star systems etc. Some people will defend this administration regardless how much more and more obviously either shamefully inept or shamefully apathetic it proves to be.

[edit on 8-9-2005 by 27jd]