Revealing black projects

A thought has occurred to me whilst reading several posts on black projects.

Can anyone name one single 'black aircraft' whose existance was rumoured but not officially acknowledged and subsequently revealed 'out of the blue' and shown to be real?
I am currently trying to think of one but cannot.


F-117, F-22 (and F-23), B-2, even SR-71, were all known to exist, and acknowledged to exist, long before they were seen.

As far as I know the DoD (or anyone else) has NOT acknowledged the existance of the TR-3A or B, 'Aurora' or any of the others we talk about on here so they don't come under the banner of 'secret aircraft waiting to be revealed' that the stealth planes come under ( and if any of these IS revealed I will have an answer to my question).

I am wondering because it occurs to me that maybe (I am far from convinced of what I am about to say myself) the 'black' programmes we wonder about and which I named above, don't actually exist at all and we are all kidding ourselves?

Could the stories about them be nothing more than the manifestation of a need within the American people in these uncertain times to believe that they have secret super planes that no potential enemy can possibly know about, in order to feel more secure as a nation?

Any thoughts?
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Its possible. Thought the aviation forum would truly be a dull place here

But many things have been revealed accidently and thus drive alot of the facination. Not quite your scenario, but there must hav ebeen rumors about the drones.

My best example was the D-21 Drones. If I recall, a group of plane nuts were on a tour of the Davis Motham (sp?) and a gust of wind blew a cover off of one of them. Take a few pictures and viola a black project revealed.

Alot of it is fanciful speculation I would agree, but there are black planes out there, and we simply have to wait untill they are revealed.

the U-2 comes to mind as its existence was reported by a russian!

its not a need of the american people its grim dark world reality, there are bases that arent well known that were missile test sights that werent that far from hawaii that no one knew about and many still dont know about. Having been under some of "special" security i believe there are many places that arent well known as groom lake and 51 but what they are used for and where are they I can only speculate. I heard rumors that they moved area 51 out to a place in utah thats more remote but that could have been just a rumor in 98'.

Sac or norad in iron mountain was secret but whose to say they dont have a twin bunker somewhere? Its my belief that every governement has secrets just depends what they are on a case by case basis. The US has places in Austrialia in the desert whos to say the dont have stuff in canada and in the rockies, North and SOuth Dakota would be a great place to house some sercet stuff,

Originally posted by FredT
there are black planes out there, and we simply have to wait untill they are revealed.

I do actually think that too, which is what raised my question when I was thinking which former secret aircraft did we not already know to definitely exist before we saw it?

I notice you didn't offer one either Fred

maybe the US will acknowledge the Aurora exists and then reveal its appearance a few years later, this would fit the pattern but it occurs to me that we have several aircraft we knew existed years before we saw them and several 'aircraft' we are guessing about, but there is nothing in the middle that we know exists which we haven't seen yet, which is the odd part as there surely should be?

Originally posted by Char2c35t
the U-2 comes to mind as its existence was reported by a russian!

The U-2 wasn't a secret plane though, only its purpose was secret. The 1958 OBA lists the Lockheed U-2 as "part of the development programme for the F-104........later adopted by NASA for studying cloud formations". lol yeah, right

The aircraft itself was perfectly well known.

its not a need of the american people its grim dark world reality, there are bases that arent well known...........etc

I'm only referring to the possible existance, or otherwise, of the actual aircraft. The bases and the research are real, for certain.

Post cold war the pace and the cornacopia approach to these projects has slowed quite a bit. So perhaps we are not seeing alot of the Black projects as there is not yet a follow on for them? Why let them know about frontline capacity? Its also mind games as well. The Russians and the Chinese are speculating as much as we are and waste time and resoures to find these mysterious planes and counter them. So the government also helps IMHO specualtion as well.

THe F-117 reveal was not as much a Operation reveal but rather a political attempt by the Carter administration to show it was not soft on defence. Otherwise we would have waited till the GWI to see them.

yeah i think GW wont let any of the his secret black project be known till a democrat is in office or as the pentagon says that the capability as become the industry standard. the is government still have classified operations dating from the 50's so unless something happens we might never know or not know till be cant even remember our names.

there are two ways the public gets to know if someone messes up big time or they want us to know. everything is need to know,

All of that is very true Fred, and I agree with it. However it does not address the question that is burning my brain at the moment

Like I said before, the existance of the F-117 (if not its name) was known publically and acknowledged by the Pentagon as far back as 1980, three years before it entered service with the USAF and seven years before its actual 'reveal' where we learned its name and what it looked like. In those days it was referred to as 'CSIRS' (Covert Survivable In-weather Recconaissance Strike) and was admitted to be a twin jet single seat subsonic low observable attack aircraft.

Thats what is baffling me now. There is nothing in that particular status of "We admit its there, but we wont show it to you" which is what the F-117, F-22, B-2 etc all went through. The ones we are wondering about now are all entirely guesswork, do you see what I am trying to say?

Further thoughts to add;

If there is even just ONE plane out there that the Pentagon admits to be still keeping secret (in the manner described above) it actually makes the existance of the rest of them MORE plausible because you have a link in the chain between 'formerly top secret' and 'completely absolutely secret' making you 'enemies' more incined to waste resources trying to find out what they are or even IF they exist. Does that make any sense?

I'm not trying to disprove the existance of the black aircraft mentioned elsewhere, but if there is an acknowledged secret aircraft that we haven't seen yet as it was with CSIRS in the 1980's then the rest of them become that much more likely to be real.

I just can't think of one.

[edit on 7-9-2005 by waynos]

yes i see but that might have to do with a lack of slip ups?

poker players say you know i have the ace but i am not going to tell you which, they should have stuff that would blow our minds that the public and rest of the world isnt ready for the US to have yet.

What would the J10 or migs be if the us already has flying saucers with rail or ion cannons on it and powerful force fields for protection?

whats the romur that the US is 20-40 years ahead of everyone else? weapons like that could turn the world agianst you pretty quickly. Plus you would save the bfa-1945 (my made up name ofr the saucer) till a major conflict arouse aka iran or taiwan vs china.

I mean they have a cuisine missile uav now

yeah it does

another thougth came to me, there is the fb-23 that we keep hearing about that could fall under that catagory of you have the desigination but we arent telling or showing you.

now if only a comfirmed secret area working would spill thier beans about the truth that would be nice but could we really trust that person? hard to say.

[edit on 7-9-2005 by Char2c35t]

Originally posted by Char2c35t
yes i see but that might have to do with a lack of slip ups?

Hmmm, I'm not sure I buy that. If the CSIRS was revealed by accident in 1980 could not the US simply continue to deny it? Or why not say 'its a fair cop guv, here it is' and show it. Why say 'yes its real, but you can't have a look' which is effectively wehat they did.

I think there is a deliberate process to all this where first a black project is rumoured, nothing more. Next a process is started towards revealing it where first it is acknowledged to exist but still kept under wraps. then years later (and most likely when a next gen replacement is well in the works) it is revealed and continues in service in full public view while the replacement is being worked on out of sight.

Does that sound plausible?

Thats why I am after the 'yes it exists but you can't have a look' projects that link the two states of being together, and these are the ones I cannot find.

Thats why I think that if no such machines exist then it is more likely that the TR-3, Aurora etc are nothing more than figments of our imagination, we (I?) need to see the link that ties them to reality.

Originally posted by Char2c35t


another thougth came to me, there is the fb-23 that we keep hearing about that could fall under that catagory of you have the desigination but we arent telling or showing you.

now if only a comfirmed secret area working would spill thier beans about the truth that would be nice but could we really trust that person? hard to say.

[edit on 7-9-2005 by Char2c35t]

That would fit the bill EXACTLY!

Thats why I want someone to say 'er waynos, have you forgotten about the ..........?' and point something out really obvious that I am missing

They'd rather assume you don't reveal Black projects accidently seen.
There's a General (Lt) in the Pentagon who had an interview with Nick Cook of Janes Defence Weekly in 2000, who said there are Black projects happening and of course he cannot reveal them.

But he took the time to explain that they need to keep the general info from potential enemy hands, and in doing so keeping it from the General Public .

Further, that as years go by black turns grey (we can see them) and then to white (we can learn their propulsion system).. and so on.

He sort of mentioned since the "SR-71" Blackbird, there's been three in a series of Navy replacement "Air vehicles" that is still considered Black.

Dallas

I would think something has to exist! Many of the roumors have been feed over the years by unexplained sightings. How much of it is real? I couldn't begin to guess. However, all the photos of strange lights around places like Groom Lake prove that something has to exist.

As Fred and others have said, the end of the Cold War has changed these projects so much. As the main threat changes, so do the defenses that are being developed. The planes design to dog fight MiG's might not be as effective at hunting terrorists.

As several others have said, we don't really have any solid leads like we used to. The exitance of a "Stealth Fighter" was known since one crashed in the early 1980's. It just took years before the Pentagon gave up on the cover stories and let us get a peek at the F-117A Nighthawk!

Today all we really have is guesses and roumors. We aren't 100% sure what we are looking for out there.

Tim

Yes, I certainly think that all the UFO's sightings are more likely to be black aircraft than alien spaceships (no offence, space cadets).

And that Nick Cook interview would also meet my crteria if it was given in an official capacity.

That what you said about the crash in the early 1980's (ghost) reminds me of the supposed crash of an 'Aurora' at Boscombe Down, the difference, again, being that Aurora continues to be denied despite this (apparently) perfectly credible account.

The government acknowleged the exisitence of stealth technology development programs in 1980 but categroically denied the exisitence of a "Stealth Fighter" until it was unveiled by DoD in November 1988. By that time that had been many rumors and much speculation about the so-called "F-19." Much of the speculation was faily accurate (number of aircraft, squadrons based at Tonopah Test Range, etc.). Surprises included the faceted shape and the F-117A designation.

There were also rumors from the 1980s to mid 1990s about a Northrop stealth demonstrator nicknamed "Shamu" that was allegedly flying at Area 51. In 1996, Northrop's TACIT BLUE stealth demonstrator, nicknamed "The Whale" was unveiled and put on display at the U.S. Air Force Museum. Again the shape was surprising. It was thought to look like a miniature B-2. It looked more like a flying Twinkie, but the front end had some resemblance to that of the B-2 and the low-observables design philosophy was the same.

In the mid 1990s, rumors began floating around about a secret aircraft called "Bird of Prey." Within five years or so, there was some circumstantial evidence linking it to the X-45A Unmanned Combat Air Vehicle (UCAV). In 2002, Boeing unveiled the Bird of Prey (BoP) stealth demonstrator which was subsequently displayed in the Air Force Museum. As it turned out, the manned BoP tested technology that contributed directly to development of the unmanned UCAV.

So what aircraft unveilings do we have to look forawrd to now?

There have been at least 7 to 11 classified manned aircraft flown at Groom Lake since the mid 1980s that have yet to be unveiled. This doesn't include the modified aircraft, foreign aircraft, or ordinary platforms (C-130, F-16, etc) carrying experimental avionics.

In 1985, Frank Birk made the first flight of a "classified technology demonstrator." He won the Bobby Bond Memorial Aviator Award for his work on this project.

Since 1982, Dan Vanderhorst has flown at least seven classified aircraft, described as mostly "one of a kind demonstrators." One was TACIT BLUE. Another had internal weapons bays, suggesting stealth characteristics (Vanderhorst "holds the altitude record in this aircraft" according to his unclassified biography).

During the last part of a 20-year Air Force career, Doug Benjamin flew four classified aircraft. One of these was Bird of Prey. What were the other three?

In the early to mid 1990s, Dennis Sager commanded the classified flight test squadron at Groom and became the first Air Force pilot to fly the YF-113G, a "classified protoype" that he helped shepard from development to first flight. Sager told me he posed for a photo with the airplane. That photo is in a vault awaiting the day it is declassified.

During the late 1990s, Joe Lanni flew first flights of two classified prototypes, including the YF-24. Lanni can't talk about these projects despite the fact that they are mentioned in his official Air Force biography.

How long will we have to wait to see these airplanes? The average time span from first flight to unveiling is approximately 10 to 15 years.

Yes, I was thinking Tacit Blue, which was rumoured and quite accurately described (see Dark Eagles, under the name Shamu) before being revealed.

The YF-113G is not a super high-tech plane, it turned out to be a captured a MiG-23
www.aeronautics.ru...

The 'black boomerangs' are very likely a neutral-buoyancy reconnaissance craft and quite well documented, but don't expect them to be uncovered for quite a while.

The YF-113G was most emphatically NOT a MiG-23. That was erroneously reported by Avaition Week & Space Technology magazine (and subsequently repeated elsewhere). The confusion comes from the fact that other YF-113 designations (i.e. YF-113A, YF-113B, YF-113C, and YF-113E) have been used for various models of MiG-17 and MiG-23 aircraft.

The YF-113G was a "classified prototype." Sager's bio says that he was "handpicked as commander of a classified flight test squadron" where he was "the first Air Force pilot to fly the YF-113G, a classified prototype," that he "led from design to first flight."

That is obviously not a description of a foreign aircraft type. Also, I have met "Bones" Sager. He was a Red Hat and he did fly MiGs. This just didn't happen to be one of them. The YF-1XX designations have been used for classified test aircraft at Groom Lake since the late 1960s. that is how we ended up with the F-117A. The original five airplanes flew under the designation YF-117A. Pilots flying these "black" test aircraft (MiGs, stealth demonstrators, etc.) used the callsign "BANDIT" (which is also how F-117A pilots ended up with "Bandit numbers").

There has to be stuff out there we don't know about. Would they let the F22 be publicly known if they didn't have something better or at least on the drawing board??

I would think that there are some things that we will never know, but maybe it's better that way