People died who did not believe the Government when told to evacuate

Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher
Again: I WAS REFERING TO ......

THE PEOPLE WHO HAD BOTH THE CAPABILITY AND MEANS WHO HAD THE INCLINATION AND MOTIVATION TO KNOW WHAT WAS COMMON KNOWLEDGE FOR OVER 40 YEARS THAT THE LEVEES WOULD NOT HOLD ARE THE SAME PEOPLE WHO (IN MY IGNORANT POINT OF VIEW) SHARE RESPONSIBILITY FOR THEIR CURRENT SITUATION.[/B]

End Quote


The people that would fall under that category would be minimal,i made an example of a person who was reported on who would fall into that category the Pub/tavern owner that stayed to protect his lively hood from looting HE was NOT complaining about no assistance he was complaining that the military were forcing people out,obviously his business was all he had and he was adamant that he was going to stay and protect that which was his i would`nt have to stretch my imagination to understand how or why he felt that way nor would i hold it against him or offer him no assistance.

He would represent a portion of the minimal category that you are referring and complaining about even though the wide opinion and complaints is that of slow assistance.

I`d like to retract calling you heartless.I just think you did`nt think all the variables through before starting this thread and are a little caught in your words.

oops done that quote thing again

[edit on 9-9-2005 by gps777]

Do you think they fought to try to live their last second, I think they fought like hell and lost. I give em credit for trying to beat nature, apparently their dna will not be carried into the future. Isnt that the way its supposed to work ?

Sorry, imbalanced. That is a little harsh. I've learned some of lifes greatest lessons from people with extrememly low IQs.

I do not wish the suffering of Katrina victims upon anyone, but the extent of people to blame (in my view) extends beyond those who answer to the press at press conferences.

I have read hundreds of posts that put the blame everywhere, but none on the citizens that should have had a sense of belonging and participation to their home stomping grounds, especially when it came to doing all they could to prevent this national failing to keep our citizens safe. It is merely my contention that their safety and the responsibility for their safety starts with them. If they have no sense of responsibility for their own safety, then it does not become a political affair or concern. Because, their constituants were not that concerned about it.

If politicians are accountable, people should inform the politicians that they are concerned about such things as levees not breaking.

Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher
If politicians are accountable, people should inform the politicians that they are concerned about such things as levees not breaking.

The politicians knew all about the levees. Bush knew because he withdrew the funds to fix the levees.

I hear your point about ultimate responsibility. I even believe that I am ultimately responsible for myself and my safety.

However, if there was a potential danger, and I had paid taxes to my government to prevent that danger from effecting me and my fellow citizens, and then, in the swoop of a pen, my government took the money and gave it to another cause that had nothing to do with the potential danger that I had informed them about, and that danger was realized and killed me and my fellow citizens, my only lack of responsibility was in trusting the government who had sworn to take care of me and then failed to do so.

If allowed, I (and my fellow citizens) would have kept our money and paid to prevent the danger ourselves.

Yes, we're all responsible for ourselves, but the government is sworn to take care of us in exchange for trusting them to put them in a position to do so. It's a society. On a scale of millions of people, someone has to organize, govern and care for the society at large. Every man for himself would be anarchy (which, by the way, I would prefer). But in our so-called democracy, we're meant to give to the whole in exchange for protection and care from the whole.

This is where the break-down occurred. Those people paid their taxes and gave to the whole. The whole failed to give back. Period. The politicians heard about the levees all right, they just ignored it.

Benevolent Heretic


I can agree with you, and understand and compehend peoples anger and extreme dissapointment. There is no doubt in my mind that the government officials have accountability for their shortcomings.

However, over the course of 40+ years of knowing what would happen, the residents of the Big Easy, could have been less Easy on their elected officials to help prevent this unprecidented national blunder.

I am embarressed for the country I serve.

Benevolent Heretic,
I can't recall reading one post you've ever written I didn't like.

Thanks for the contribution.

People at the local level were speaking out about the levees mismanagement of funds.

Walter Maestri has been the emergency management chief for Jefferson Perish or the Deputy Chief of the emergency management for years and had been verbally and openly drawing attention to the levees since day one.

He said on Real Time (HBO with Bill M.) last night " I was called a Dooms Day profit by the Mayor of New Orleans when I said that the 15 foot levees were now eroded down to 13 1/2 feet and wouldn't hold for a category 3 hurricane. I was saying this back in the late 1990s, but did not have the public support or political support needed to make it a priority issue at the local or state level."


www.washingtonmonthly.com...

I had a few objectives when I created this thread:

1) To impress upon the readers of this post that the average American does not have the ability, the capability, the insight, the drive, or the intentions necessary to police after their government until after the fact.

2) Reach into the emotional & passionate aspects of peoples pyschies to see how they think, difference or indifference towards the responsibilities of a politically involved social order that is either democracy, or corporate.

3) Argue one extreme to hear the rhetoric of the opposite extreme.


I know with an unmeasurable infinite certainty that every level of government failed to do what should have been done.

I know far less people would be dead, homeless, and owning nothing, if Americans cared beforehand enough to know what incompetencies existed.

I don't blame the dead. I don't blame the elderly. I don't blame the sick. I don't blame the children. I don't blame the poor. Only individuals and each individual know if they did all they could to protect both their interests, and the interests of their fellow citizens.

I fall short, but acknowledge I do have a responsibility to all those who have preceeded me, and all those that will come after me. I owe them, because I exist. I owe them for their past contributions, and I owe the future generations, because I have had the priviledge of existance. And, I know I am far less than any one else.

So now your stating for the record that this was just some kind of psychology experiment on your part either for your own interests or to enlighten the dull minded population with your Superior intellect.

1. if that were true and i doubt it very much that is trollish behavior and frowned upon i believe.

2.as you`ve stated in this thread you have learned some great lessons from people with LOW IQ i can only assume you dont know the difference between intelligence and education.

3.I believe because you would be the type of person to guard yourself so strongly from being wrong because of your obvious extensive education and pride of it that you would find it nearly imposable to admit that you are wrong.

Question-has it ever occurred to you these dullish minded people you are talking about maybe the majority just want to get on with their lives,they are not interested in politic`s education conspiracy theories,they simply just want to live their lives with the least amount of outside complications as possible,they just would rather live in the ignorance that their Gov has their best interests and the worlds for that matter at heart,and if they dont believe that they probably cant be bothered worrying about it because nobody wants to listen any way.

These are my thoughts on you and i`m arguably one of these people who you would consider LOW IQ its not i`m uneducated and there`s an example,when IQ has nothing to do with ones intelligence which is why you have learned some great lessons from them.

I judge the intelligence of a person by his/her ability to just do whats right say what right act right in the right circumstances in every day life.

I have an IE spell checker and it just corrected about twenty spelling mistakes,not that i`m ashamed not having a proper education just wanted it to be more easily read.

If your last post was your first i`d think different of you,but now you say it was your little experiment.The only thing lacking is your abillity to be true to yourself for your own good and i would rather have not had to express this.

Originally posted by gps777
So now your stating for the record that this was just some kind of psychology experiment on your part either for your own interests or to enlighten the dull minded population with your Superior intellect.

I don't have a Superior intellect. I wanted a learning experience by argueing a certain point of view, whether I agreed with it or not. And I learned a lot. No Dull minded posts here. Also, not too many people who truly believe Americans are what makes America from the bottom up. I wanted to instill just a seed of an idea in a few peoples heads that this country is "We the people ...", or we could just toss out our first official document of our nation.

1. if that were true and i doubt it very much that is trollish behavior and frowned upon i believe.

I do not think it is frowned upon to argue a point of view with substantiated facts. If people at ATS did not have a personal agenda, then ATS probably wouldn't need to exist.

2.as you`ve stated in this thread you have learned some great lessons from people with LOW IQ i can only assume you dont know the difference between intelligence and education.

The people with low IQs I was reffering to were grown adults who have never learned to speak, write, walk, or be potty trained. The people with low IQs I was reffering to were the adult men and women that I used to change their diapers for them, and slush their wastes by hand out of cloth diapers. You know, the children that families tuck away at homes, or give to the state to care for, and never visit (at least the 10 years I worked with them).

3.I believe because you would be the type of person to guard yourself so strongly from being wrong because of your obvious extensive education and pride of it that you would find it nearly imposable to admit that you are wrong.

I have made many mistakes, and I'll make many more. The worst mistake I made today was posting an email I recieved as a new thread, which got moved, and then 95% of the content edited out. I didn't mean any harm, but obviously made a mistake because the mods changed it twice. My formal education is somewhat minimal. I have an associates degree in fire sciences, and some basic prerequisites for nursing finished, along with a few electives. Not a "higher" education, just an average joe.

Question-has it ever occurred to you these dullish minded people you are talking about maybe the majority just want to get on with their lives,they are not interested in politic`s education conspiracy theories,they simply just want to live their lives with the least amount of outside complications as possible,they just would rather live in the ignorance that their Gov has their best interests and the worlds for that matter at heart,and if they dont believe that they probably cant be bothered worrying about it because nobody wants to listen any way.

Yes, it has occurred to me, and I think if they're bubble is so small, then they are inept and have no inclination of looking at the big picture, which essentially is why so many Americans are in the position they are in. Empathy begins by being able to see beyond what is most self serving, and actually care for something more so than just their lives. If all they focus on for a period of time is their lives, it becomes habit, it becomes routine, it becomes their life to think of only their life, and the lives of those only closest to them.

These are my thoughts on you and i`m arguably one of these people who you would consider LOW IQ its not i`m uneducated and there`s an example,when IQ has nothing to do with ones intelligence which is why you have learned some great lessons from them.

If I hadn't learned something from you, I would not have spent so much time reading and contemplating your perspective. If I did not respect you, I would not still be typing.

I judge the intelligence of a person by his/her ability to just do whats right say what right act right in the right circumstances in every day life.

And, there is nothing wrong with the way you view intelligence. Personally, I view intelligence as the ability to integrate new information and use it appropriatly.

I have an IE spell checker and it just corrected about twenty spelling mistakes,not that i`m ashamed not having a proper education just wanted it to be more easily read.

Everyone has gifts. No one is useless. Thanks for your empathy for the total strangers you knew would have a better reading experience by you choosing to use your spell check.

If your last post was your first i`d think different of you,but now you say it was your little experiment.The only thing lacking is your abillity to be true to yourself for your own good and i would rather have not had to express this.

Sorry to have upset you, or taken you a little out of your comfort zone. But, This is the first of over 30 of my threads to make it to page 5, and I seriously doubt it would have made it to page 2 if my last post was my first. I also would not have had the real arguements. I'm not saying I did not believe what I was posting entirely, I just chose my words to meet my objectives. I wanted to learn something, and try to deny ignorance.

Have a nice evening, and thank you for your contributions.

Sincerely,
A guy in the lower 50%

Edited for spelling errors

[edit on 11-9-2005 by Esoteric Teacher]

I'm sorry if my words offend those who do not believe people should be individually responsible for their own lives, but if people are not willing or capable to take responsibility and accountability for their own lives, their own actions and behaviors, then democracy will be a failed experiment.

Hey, Great Idea

Let's git rid of the police...people who walk down the wrong streets and get shot, oh well...thier responsible for themselves, right.

Better yet, screw insurance (life and car).

People are stupid, but that does not mean we turn our backs on them. Many could not afford to get out and many had no means to do so and many had NO CHOICE...the children and elderly, I doubt strollers and wheel chairs will be able make it out of the city.

sporty

[edit on 11/9/2005 by SportyMB]

Thanx for your words ET,i can understand your view ENTIRELY now when you were talking about people with low IQ as i`ve been in a similar position to yourself not to your degree though,i was a supervisor in a Gov funded sheltered workshop for 6 years with approx 100 disable people of varying degree which i know fully what you were referring to as in learning from them.

Your words about them(low IQ)is fully understood and i`m in total agreement thanx for clearing that up and my apology on my misjudgment of you for that.

Your reply was much appreciated and respected

Originally posted by gps777
Thanx for your words ET,i can understand your view ENTIRELY now when you were talking about people with low IQ as i`ve been in a similar position to yourself not to your degree though,i was a supervisor in a Gov funded sheltered workshop for 6 years with approx 100 disable people of varying degree which i know fully what you were referring to as in learning from them.

Your words about them(low IQ)is fully understood and i`m in total agreement thanx for clearing that up and my apology on my misjudgment of you for that.

Your reply was much appreciated and respected

I truly don't feel you owed me an opology (apology?) (not sure how to spell it myself) , at any rate: The words I chose to use may not have properly delivered what I was meaning. No worries. And thanks again for your contributions.

The apology was because i`d realized i`d stepped on my own feet with the IQ part and was upset that i attacked you on something i`d staunchly support if i`d understood what you were refferring to ,some people who only stare at disable people on a train or in the shops could`nt understand about them from a distance.I know my life is richer because of the expieriences i`ve had.That was all.

Though i`m still annoyed that you made this thread the way you did,do it again and i fear i wont worry about the censor`s and tell you how i really felt.

What I don't understand is this.If NO wans't getting the levys fixed by by the goverment, why didn't they do it themselves? No one outside of NO should have to pay for thier own risk taking(living below sea level...next to the ocean).If I was a mayor in NO I would add city taxes that included fixing and mantaining the levy system.The president,nor fema should have to deal with such a thing.Fema is more like "hey a city got hit by an earth quake, send them to aid the local goverment".FEMA is to AID already made systems that are at a local/city/state level.If NO didn't have a backup plan, why should the goverment.California seems to have stuff under control when an earthquake happens,as well as florida and its hurricanes.....they usually ask for assistance, but not because they have no resources themselves.NO had no plan of action, they are at fault.

Originally posted by gps777


Though i`m still annoyed that you made this thread the way you did,do it again and i fear i wont worry about the censor`s and tell you how i really felt.

That is totally understandible, and truth is I may have been wrong for doing it this way, but I knew it would draw out more passionate contributions from people on how they thought about Big Brother vs Everyday People.

I want to empower everyday people, so Big Brother doesn't have to be so big. Sometimes my methods connect with certain minds, that the same methods don't connect with other peoples perspective. Neither being right or wrong, just the way it is.

You were (are?) justifiable in your dissappointment with me, and I regret that. However, the means got me to the ends, hopefully without hurting anyone.

i didnt read to many of the recent posts, so if this was already said...oh well.

1. Why did the president stay a few more days on vacation? Do you know how many lives he could have saved? Is his vacation more important?

2. Condeliza Rice took a say off to go shoe shopping. This was a matter that nobody could stay off work for.

3. Search and rescue teams from many countries wanting to help were turned down at the border.

4. American search and rescue teams weren't alowed into the city until a few days of draining, even the ones with boats.

5.If anybodies life is in danger, it becomes the governments concern. There were many immobile people in that city. And nobody really had anywhere to go.

6. And what if the hurricane hadn't occured? a very large amount that had evacuated could have lost their jobs.

Don't tell me not to point fingers. The finger need to be pointed when your countries leader is an incompetant jerk off that really only cares about his money.

[edit on 15-9-2005 by Zickddot]

i did not read every reply yet, but here is my take on it.

im not 'picking sides' with individual posters or 'left or right'. I am however making the 'educated guess' to say that there were 10's of thousands of people that had in one way or another able to evacuate and did not. this makes me sick to my stomach. i remember watching the news seeing the mayor on tv saying mandatory evacuation time. i remember saying to myself watch 1/2 the city stay and it be the worst storm in recorded history.

I wouldnt wish what happened in new orleans on anyone. but everyone that had a real choice and elected to stay, im sorry to say this, but can you say "i just earned a darwin award"?

Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher
That is totally understandible, and truth is I may have been wrong for doing it this way, but I knew it would draw out more passionate contributions from people on how they thought about Big Brother vs Everyday People.

I want to empower everyday people, so Big Brother doesn't have to be so big. Sometimes my methods connect with certain minds, that the same methods don't connect with other peoples perspective. Neither being right or wrong, just the way it is.

I say good for you E T i respect you on that,though this topic was a poor choice in which to excesses them on it.But you did get passion none the less

Originally posted by jprophet420
i did not read every reply yet, but here is my take on it.

im not 'picking sides' with individual posters or 'left or right'. I am however making the 'educated guess' to say that there were 10's of thousands of people that had in one way or another able to evacuate and did not. this makes me sick to my stomach. i remember watching the news seeing the mayor on tv saying mandatory evacuation time. i remember saying to myself watch 1/2 the city stay and it be the worst storm in recorded history.

Thats the problem with hind sight and not reading most if not all post before posting your opinion`s because if you had you may have been educated more to the fact that its not as simple as you state ?.

But besides that i think your new here?if so welcome to ATS jprophet