People died who did not believe the Government when told to evacuate

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posted on Sep, 7 2005 @ 01:35 AM
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Here is a few thoughts for who to blame.

Were people not aware they were living under sea level?

Were people unaware a hurricane was coming?

Did these same highly intelligent people choose not to believe the government when told to evacuate?

At what point is the president responsible for other peoples stupidity?

At what point is the mayor responsible for other peoples stupidity?

At what point is the governor responsible for other peoples stupidity?

At what point are the individuals responsible for their own stupidity?



Obviously not any time soon, according to the majority of the posts I see in this forum.

22 people who tied themselves together and stayed, were found all dead and still tied together.

Who is to blame?

Bush was on vacation, must have been his fault.




posted on Sep, 7 2005 @ 01:41 AM
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If all those people that were caught in NO was simply because they are all stupid,i have a question for you.

At what point does a Gov stop caring for a million or so very stupid people?
If that were the case.



posted on Sep, 7 2005 @ 01:42 AM
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They were expecting a hurricane, not a levee failure. But seriously man what the hell is wrong with you? You ain't got no po-folk where your from? People that ain't got a pot to piss in, much less an automobile, or family that give an iota about them. How about the old folks? They at fault for not evacuating as well? Sick People in hospitals? Yeah, those idiotic po-folk. You're pretty twisted. Reminds me of some Case Law I read a while back, a woman was raped fairly brutally, but the guy filed a countersuit saying that she was so beautiful, and dressed so provocatively that he was unable to control himself, he was the victim.



posted on Sep, 7 2005 @ 01:44 AM
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I'm sorry if my words offend those who do not believe people should be individually responsible for their own lives, but if people are not willing or capable to take responsibility and accountability for their own lives, their own actions and behaviors, then democracy will be a failed experiment.

For, it seems by the number of negative posts in this thread, no individuals are accountible for their actions and behaviors concerning their own livelyhood. It seems Americans want a dictatorship, so they can blame others for their misfortunes.



posted on Sep, 7 2005 @ 01:49 AM
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Let's go to the root cause. People who are poor, sick or elderely were not offered a way out were they. If they did not own wheels or have family or friends that did have a spare seat in their vehicle, well then they just stayed and no public transportation help was made available for them.

Dallas



posted on Sep, 7 2005 @ 01:51 AM
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Originally posted by twitchy
They were expecting a hurricane, not a levee failure. But seriously man what the hell is wrong with you? You ain't got no po-folk where your from? People that ain't got a pot to piss in, much less an automobile, or family that give an iota about them. How about the old folks? They at fault for not evacuating as well? Sick People in hospitals? Yeah, those idiotic po-folk. You're pretty twisted. Reminds me of some Case Law I read a while back, a woman was raped fairly brutally, but the guy filed a countersuit saying that she was so beautiful, and dressed so provocatively that he was unable to control himself, he was the victim.


Yes, i believe physically handicapped and bedridden in a hospital are the same as being stupid.

these two groups are hand in hand the same.

Yes, that is exactly what I was reffering to.

No, I was talking about the people who are physically capable and in their mid 20s to 40s who don't have the common sense to take some preplanning for their own existance, and were too stupid to grasp on to at least one opportunity to get out of poverty in the past 20+ years.

Maybe a little bit of self-reliance would have helped these people help themselves to not be a victim, if they had chosen not to want to be one.



posted on Sep, 7 2005 @ 01:52 AM
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Originally posted by twitchy
They were expecting a hurricane, not a levee failure.


Why were they not expecting a levee failure? Don't they listen to the news or see the thousands that are evacuating?



posted on Sep, 7 2005 @ 01:53 AM
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I'm not offended at all, I just think that is pretty sick logic. I'm sure alot of people could have gotten out, and had they known that poorly maintained levees were going to flood the city, they probably would have. But you saying that Granny in her wheel chair is at fault, or that Joe Schmoe who doesnt own a car or have any family, or had any way out is at fault for the Government sitting on their COLLECTIVE asses for four days while people by the thousands drown in their own feces, that bothers me. Maybe it's the parent in me, but we're talking four days here.



posted on Sep, 7 2005 @ 01:55 AM
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Originally posted by Dallas

Let's go to the root cause. People who are poor, sick or elderely were not offered a way out were they. If they did not own wheels or have family or friends that did have a spare seat in their vehicle, well then they just stayed and no public transportation help was made available for them.

Dallas


If you are a individual who can not be responsible for your own well being, then the bubble you live in is so small, I doubt you are of any service to anyone, especially when you are not any service to yourself.

In the course of their lives there was no opportunity for these people to learn any skill to better themselves or other members of their society?

And for this reason, they are the responsibility of others?



posted on Sep, 7 2005 @ 01:57 AM
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I watched a report one guy they interveiwed was a pub (tavern in the US?)owner guarding up to his knees in water at the front of his premises with a shot gun because of looters.

Now i`d say people like this guy would make up a percentage of people caught i`d hazard a guess and for the sake of the arguement i`ll say he and those like him make up 25% i would`nt call him stupid nor did he want to leave but was being forced out.

In hind sight if you knew for sure you were going to die anyone would make some type of an attempt to get out of that situation.But no one knew until it was too late just how serious it was.

If you were in that situation i bet you would like some assistance



posted on Sep, 7 2005 @ 02:00 AM
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Originally posted by twitchy
I'm not offended at all, I just think that is pretty sick logic. I'm sure alot of people could have gotten out, and had they known that poorly maintained levees were going to flood the city, they probably would have. But you saying that Granny in her wheel chair is at fault, or that Joe Schmoe who doesnt own a car or have any family, or had any way out is at fault for the Government sitting on their COLLECTIVE asses for four days while people by the thousands drown in their own feces, that bothers me. Maybe it's the parent in me, but we're talking four days here.


I'm offended that you think Granny in her wheel chair is stupid.

What makes you equate people having the means and capability to evacuate and choosing not to do so with Granny in her wheelchair with no friends, money, or family?



posted on Sep, 7 2005 @ 02:05 AM
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What percentage of people had the means, the money, the capability of evacuating, and still chose not to do so, even though the government had urged them to do so?

Are you saying that these people who did not take the advice of the government when told to evacuate (but had the capability) are equally the same as the poor people without the means to escape.

Which would be more deserving of an air lift first? The poor family who had no means of escape, or the rich family who opted not to heed the advice?

[edit on 7-9-2005 by Esoteric Teacher]



posted on Sep, 7 2005 @ 02:05 AM
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Six Of One...

For what it's worth, a lot of people died who did believe the government when told to evacuate.

As for life below sea level, yep they took their chances, but we all do.

I live in an area prone to brushfires and earthquakes, and there isn't one square inch of land in this country which isn't subject to severe, deadly storms and other potentially fatal disasters.

And we are all potential victims of terrorism, and make no mistake, more of us are going to be murdered by terrorists.

Life is a series of disasters and triumphs, no matter who you are.

I've commented on this in my podcasts, but the short version is that yes, people are ultimately responsible for their own well-being.

The proof is right here in the form of hundreds of thousands of people who were failed by their government in some way or another.

I can assure anyone reading this that a lot of people who may have felt complacent about the government helping them have a much different point of view right now.

Some people chose not to evacuate, and -- in retrospect -- chose poorly. Others chose to live in a city which has stood since 1718, and whose sub-sea-level parts have been that way for almost a century. A gamble, yes, but the wheel spins for us all.

Many who wanted to leave could not, and again, learned the hard way how much government can be trusted when the chips are down.

We can sit here and judge the decisions of others, as is our right, but I think it would be terribly misguided to derive some sense of superiority in clucking our tongues at the misfortune of others.

Whatever may have gone before does not make me want to help them one whit less.

We're only human.



posted on Sep, 7 2005 @ 02:13 AM
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I'm far from perfect myself. And, don't get me wrong, I feel for all the victims evenly, and am overdraft in my bank account to prove it. Went down to just basic cable, because I feel guilty for having when others don't have the basics. My entire adult life has been of service. But, for the people who depend on others for their existance, when they are able and capable is rude, and infringes upon the life and liberties of their fellow citizens.




And we are all potential victims of terrorism, and make no mistake, more of us are going to be murdered by terrorists.


Terrorism is a result of tolerance not being tolerated by those ruled by intolerance.



posted on Sep, 7 2005 @ 02:16 AM
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Originally posted by gps777
If all those people that were caught in NO was simply because they are all stupid,i have a question for you.

At what point does a Gov stop caring for a million or so very stupid people?
If that were the case.


At what point do the citizens trust the government and take their advice? Some didn't do it 9 days ago, and today it is the government's fault?



posted on Sep, 7 2005 @ 02:21 AM
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Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher
What percentage of people had the means, the money, the capability of evacuating, and still chose not to do so, even though the government had urged them to do so?
end quote
I already gave you a percentage a guess but i gave it non the less,in the example of the tavern owner who chose not to heed the warning to leave and even after the distruction he wanted to stay to protect his property but was being forced out.So if your such a free country to make a decission not to heed a warning,why then do you not have that same freedom to stay after the fact?
quote
Are you saying that these people who did not take the advice of the government when told to evacuate (but had the capability) are equally the same as the poor people without the means to escape.
end quote
Put simply yes they need help,so would you leave someone dying of thirst in the desert because he should`nt have been there???
quote
Which would be more deserving of an air lift first? The poor family who had no means of escape, or the rich family who opted not to heed the advice?
end quote
Well thats a contradiction,the rich family chose to stay.So ask the question again.

edit sorry hav`nt figured this quote button out yet


[edit on 7-9-2005 by gps777]



posted on Sep, 7 2005 @ 02:36 AM
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For quotes use:

{quote} = to start quote

and

{/quote} = to end quote

replace the { with [

replace the } with ]



posted on Sep, 7 2005 @ 02:41 AM
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If the steering wheel of your new car comes off in your hand and you smash into a guard rail at 60 mph, who's fault is it? Is it your fault because you were in a car on dangerous highway? Or is is the people who sold you the car, or is it the guy who cut funding from the steering wheel department of the auto factory?



posted on Sep, 7 2005 @ 02:45 AM
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I'm not saying leave anyone for dead.

I'm saying I'm tired of finger pointing and assigning blame to all others than those who where:

1) knowledgable about the possibility of levee breaks

2) knowledgalble about living adjacent to the ocean that was 30 feet higher than the city.

3) knowledgable about the hurricane coming.

4) knowledgable about the evacuation orders.

5) Had the means to evacuate.

It is this percantage of people who should be assigned some blame for their current disposition, and not only the officials who failed them days after the fact.

If any lesson should first be learned it is that a large percentage of people who have the means to escape, but do not heed government warnings become the federal government's problem and the private sector's problem as well. While the private sector blames the government, and everyone feels sorry and pitty for those who proved unwilling or incapable of actually grasping the full scale of what is going on around them.


Why hasn't anyone (that I've heard) started to blame the French for building the levees originally?

Why don't Americans feel the need to accept responsibility and accountability for themselves when dissasters strike?

Why is blame being dished out left and right, when the victims in some cases are victims of their own accord?



posted on Sep, 7 2005 @ 02:47 AM
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Can I Quote You On That?


Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher
Terrorism is a result of tolerance not being tolerated by those ruled by intolerance.

Speaking of quotes, that is without a doubt the Quote of the Day.


Unre-Liability


Originally posted by twitchy
If the steering wheel of your new car comes off in your hand and you smash into a guard rail at 60 mph, who's fault is it? Is it your fault because you were in a car on dangerous highway? Or is is the people who sold you the car, or is it the guy who cut funding from the steering wheel department of the auto factory?

If recent case law is any guide, it would be the fault of the contractor who installed the guard rail, and the post-appeal damage award would be in the neighborhood of $35 million.

Being a victim can be big business, if you have a good attorney.*




*Which in this case, ironically, ultimately means a bad attorney.





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