mistake on 22/7

thought i'd start a thread about the new evidence that has come to light:

bulky jacket: wrong
running in to station: wrong
police shouting: wrong
vaulting ticket barrier: wrong
acting suspicious: wrong
tripping/fell/pushed on the train: wrong
hearing 5 shots: wrong

these were all gathered from eye witness statements on the day of the shooting. then in the official statement giving by police, most of these were accepted as what happened. so why were 'we' the public lied to?

www.channel4.com...

www.channel4.com...

www.itv.com...

www.itn.co.uk...

video footage of news report:


edge.channel4.com...

people were justifying the use of shoot to kill even when they thought he had a bulky jacket, then found out he didnt. they still justified shoot to kill when he vaulted the barrier, yet he did not. they still justifies shoot to kill when the man ran from police shouting, yet they did not shout and he was not running from police.

the brazilian man is now known to have sat down on the tube. eyewitness statements of the man running on to the train and tripping are completly false.

your thoughts?

[edit on 16-8-2005 by shaunybaby]

despite all the lies that were told about the events that day, one person for still thinks this person 'was' a threat and had to be dealt with using leathal force.

Originally posted by devilwasp
Mabye if you read it ,they believe he was a terrorist, how did they know he was simply going to get on a train?
They thought he was a big time terrorist, THAT fact was not known , I TOLD YOU there was a good reason for watching him THATS WHY.
When they say he was acting normally, that makes no diffrence apart from the jumping the barrier bit which I agree is rather "dodgy" , a terrorist can appear normal one minute and disturbed the next.
The brain works in seconds, not minutes.

the firearm unit did act on information they recieved, and the order was shoot to kill as someone had identified the brazilian man as the suspect from the attempted bombings the day before. however, despite the firearm unit acting on awful intelligence, and the intelligence team making their huge blunder, why all the lies? why the lies about the events taking place? why the lies about him vaulting the ticket barrier? why the lies about him wearing a bulky jacket? why the lies about the number of shots? why SO many lies???

compared to the black community here in ny, you guys have it easy

regardless, this is one shameful and down right disgusting event that isn't being covered by the media as if nothing wrong happened when obviously something did. are there any people protesting out there because of this? the should be calling for that officer's badge and jail time

Shaun

I have one for you:


Possibly in country illegally = WRONG

And one that was brought up and then disappeared just as quickly -


Wires coming out of coat = WRONG
carrying backpack (one eyewitness said) WRONG

Oh and let's not forget:

Suspected Terrorist = Wrong


n.

I still say to all of you that can do a better job:

Do us all a favour and leave the computer and go apply for a job with the Police/MI5/etc they all are happy to recruit people most of the time- as you can all overcome their human weaknesses in doing their job you will be an asset to us all


No offence to you Shaun, and I do infact think it's terrible it happened.
BUt we have spent a huge sum of money and years in training these people and forming them into generally effective teams to combat the problems we face and protect us.

We virtually never hear about the times they succeed, becasue of National Security and the fact no-one notices good news. We only hear when they mess up - big time.
Don't wreck years and countless sums of money of training, hard work and good service becasue of inevitable slip ups. While these 'slip-ups' are major - they are relatively small to the bigger picture.

These people arn't newbies, they have provided years of hard work and no-one appreciates it or how difficult it is. As soon as they mess up you are all so ready to forget the good service you don't even know about.

was it not cleared up that this guy was actually here legally?

They got the intel wrong but instead of being labeled as incompetent they simply played dumb perhaps they would have kept the act up until evidence arose in trial but by then nobody will care.

Just a thought

~Peace ~

[edit on 16/8/05 by Hunting Veritas]

Originally posted by AgentSmith
I still say to all of you that can do a better job:

Do us all a favour and leave the computer and go apply for a job with the Police/MI5/etc they all are happy to recruit people most of the time- as you can all overcome their human weaknesses in doing their job you will be an asset to us all


No offence to you Shaun, and I do infact think it's terrible it happened.
BUt we have spent a huge sum of money and years in training these people and forming them into generally effective teams to combat the problems we face and protect us.

We virtually never hear about the times they succeed, becasue of National Security and the fact no-one notices good news. We only hear when they mess up - big time.
Don't wreck years and countless sums of money of training, hard work and good service becasue of inevitable slip ups. While these 'slip-ups' are major - they are relatively small to the bigger picture.

These people arn't newbies, they have provided years of hard work and no-one appreciates it or how difficult it is. As soon as they mess up you are all so ready to forget the good service you don't even know about.

we've all heard you can learn from mistakes, but this is one you would probably have liked to learn before you had made the mistake, but things don't always work out the way you planned.

i don't in any way not respect the police in our country, they ultimately keep us safe, obviously we haven't each got our own body guard, but we are as safe as can be. i also don't doubt that the amount of training endured, and money involved in creating our police force. the only thing is, if your job involves this much pressure and training when it comes to 'making the call' that this is their suspect, you need to make the right one, as there is no room for error in this job.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
was it not cleared up that this guy was actually here legally?

Yes it was cleared up. But originally this rumour was allowed to make the rounds until someone quickly cleared it up after the family started protesting.

I know because those who are quick to defend the rights of the police starting saying that anyone who was running AND illegal should have been gunned down in the first place.

Originally posted by nikelbee
Yes it was cleared up. But originally this rumour was allowed to make the rounds until someone quickly cleared it up after the family started protesting.

I know because those who are quick to defend the rights of the police starting saying that anyone who was running AND illegal should have been gunned down in the first place.

goes to show how slow we are on the dealing of illegal immigrants. this man had a job, probably paid taxes (unless he was always paid cash), and i'm sure a visa only lasts 6 months to a year. he overstayed his welcome by two years, of which if this carries on more and more immigrants are going to be stealing our jobs.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
goes to show how slow we are on the dealing of illegal immigrants. this man had a job, probably paid taxes (unless he was always paid cash), and i'm sure a visa only lasts 6 months to a year. he overstayed his welcome by two years, of which if this carries on more and more immigrants are going to be stealing our jobs.

Same problem as the US - lack of resources to support a tracking system. There's just not the manpower or the funding to enable this.

Blame the companies who are hiring illegals, too. If they didn't do this, then illegals wouldn't be able to work, would they?

No demand = no supply.

And we might want to encourage more people to get off the dole and take a lowerpaid job that they think is below them.

You said he vaulted the barrier.

The barrier is the ticket barriers, right?

So even if that was true, the only crime the guy had committed was screwing the government out of £1.20, and he paid for it with his life. I bet the bullet cost that much as well.

He didn't vault the barriers. He doesn't owe anyone 1.20. He had an Oyster card.

By 10am that morning, elite firearms officers were provided with what they describe as "positive identification" and shot De Menezes eight times in the head and upper body.

'positive identification'? who gave that order. who decided that de menezes was one of the bombers from the day previous. the original surveillence person watching the flats didn't get a good enough look, and the only person to be near him after that was the officer in plain clothes that followed de menezes to the bus, so it is likely that he was the one who gave the order, as he was also the one who told other officers not to let him enter the station.

once the firearm unit were given orders, they had to follow them. as i said before the firearm unit didn't have any photos to compare de menezes to hussain osman.

A member of the surveillance team is quoted in the report. He said: "I heard shouting which included the word `police' and turned to face the male in the denim jacket.

"He immediately stood up and advanced towards me and the CO19 officers. I grabbed the male in the denim jacket by wrapping both my arms around his torso, pinning his arms to his side.

the police did shout and ordered the man. de menezes stood up and walked towards the officers. they then grabbed his arms (which i had a huge arguement with devilwasp) that they 'could' and indeed did grab de menezes' arms. at this point i don't see how he was a threat?

"I then pushed him back on to the seat where he had been previously sitting. I then heard a gun shot very close to my left ear and was dragged away onto the floor of the carriage."

a threat? doubtful. they had his arms, pushed him in to his seat...obviously they must have known he had no bomb. what's going on?

[edit on 17-8-2005 by shaunybaby]

shaunybaby What would you rather have been done?

To me his life was worth the thousand that would have been saved if he would have had a bomb.

Originally posted by SpittinCobra
shaunybaby What would you rather have been done?

To me his life was worth the thousand that would have been saved if he would have had a bomb.

I think the part that's really troubling people is the veracity of the information used to target this guy....he was targeted for questionable reasons with - it seems - absolutely nothing to indicate he was a threat. The denim jacket was hardly a "heavy winter coat", and his immigration status (which has been used by some here, for some unfathomable reason, to justify his being shot to death) has since been confirmed as being valid; just two points alone.

If there had perhaps been legitimate reasons for such targetting, it might have been a different matter, you know?

Originally posted by Tinkleflower

If there had perhaps been legitimate reasons for such targetting, it might have been a different matter, you know?

Right, I do agree. I just think its over with and its not going to happen again, if it does we will not be hereing about it. We are human and we make mistakes. As much as I think and know police are dirty, I dont think they kill to be killing, the men, IMO, where tring to save lives. Let it go. Its over with.

[edit on 17-8-2005 by SpittinCobra]

Originally posted by SpittinCobra
Let it go. Its over with.

if anything it's just begun. the main reason given to me by devilwasp that de menezes was shot, was that he was a threat. was the threat when he was walking towards police officers, hence obeying their orders? was the threat when one police officer had their arms around de menezes and pushed him in to his seat? i can understand that people make mistakes, but it's a mistake that could have so easily been avoided.

Like I ask in two post ago, what would you like to seen done?