Yep Amory, this is fuzzy math and voodoo statistics.

Plus, they conveniently leave out how many lives medicine save.

Originally posted by Amorymeltzer


Also, medicinal deaths are often the case of people using their medicines improperly, not reading the directions, mixing with other drugs they shouldn't be taking, including alcohol, or taking other medicines not prescribed for them. And there's no point in taking medicine to help your heart if you're going to sit around watching T.V. and eating crap all day.

Since I work in a pharmacy, I have to agree to a point. In the area I work and live, most of our customers believe that narcotic pain killers don't work unless they are washed down with nice cold 6 pack

However, I have also seen 1st hand how the side effects can outweigh the benefits. My mom almost died from her cholesterol medication. Not because of taking it improperly or anything like that, but because she had a rare but serious reaction to it. In a small percentage of people on this particular statin drug, it can cause a drop in the hemoglobin level and cause abnormal blood tests; loss of appetite leading to anorexia; fatigue; muscle weakness; the list goes on. Basically, the doctor was convinced she had cancer. After seeing specialists and going through numerous tests, it was the oncologist that finally believed it was the medication. Even with being off of the medication for almost 2 years and taking iron tablets 3 times daily, her blood level is barely in a normal range. Actually, it just dropped below normal again because she was switched to a different statin drug that affected her similarly, but not to the extreme the other did.

I guess my point is that the pharmaceutical companies are so eager to make a buck that they sometimes don't study the side effects or risks before they market new drugs.

**My note---a lot of cholesterol meds are called statins because the chemical/generic name usually ends in -statin. Common brand names are Lipitor, Zocor, Pravachol, Mevachor**

I was prescribed a medication for depression called lofepramine (the dose was 3x70mg a day) and the side effects were awful ...they included a dry mouth ALL of the time no matter how much water you drank, erectile dysfunction,blured vision AND the weight just piled on while i was taking them. The side effects were far worst than the depression. And i found out that taking this drug long term could increase the chances of dying early as a result of a heart attack.. Pharmaceutical companies are getting away with murder LITTERALLY.

No matter how fuzzy the stats, I believe this is true. OF COURSE the stats will be fuzzy they DONT want the general public to be very AWARE of this problem, so do not expect to find CLEAR answers or numbers anywhere.

Pharmaceutical companys ARE getting away with murder and they are funding lobbyests in Washington. They will NEVER tell the thruth.

Originally posted by theRiverGoddess
No matter how fuzzy the stats, I believe this is true. OF COURSE the stats will be fuzzy they DONT want the general public to be very AWARE of this problem, so do not expect to find CLEAR answers or numbers anywhere.

Pharmaceutical companys ARE getting away with murder and they are funding lobbyests in Washington. They will NEVER tell the thruth.

I think this is complete nonsense to discredit health benefits from prescription drugs, which in my lifetime, have been proven to SAVE MY LIFE, on various occasions.

To this day I take overaround 22 presription medications a day. (Seperate medications, some more than one pill, but that doesn't count) Before my pills were slowly upped to different kinds added ect, I was in HORRIBLE condition, a year ago a person would have thought I was on death's bed, now I'm perfectly fine, and getting along great, simply from the HELP from prescription drugs.

I think this is a total lie, and that giving them a 0.01% chance (When taken as directed) that is FAR too gengerous.

As for terrorists, they slaughter thousands upon thousands, with a SINGLE attack.

Even in my experience, most people who overdose on prescription drugs walk away okay, after some time in hospital. This obviously shows a lack of danger, it's an old wives tail, and 'good old fashioned tradition', coming into play here, saying "All drugs are evil, the end", well sorry it's not the truth, or the end. Drugs are a miracle, which without completely would cause billions of deaths worldwide, we should thank doctors for inventing all these drugs, which cure, or help save conditions completely unrelated to the drug, just someone had to work very hard, to find something that finally bonds to the cell, and defends against whatever virus.

This is a ridiculous folly.

I'm going to repost something I did a few months back, concerning drug trials. chrmdrx1971, I'm surprised you still think (after working in a pharmacy) that side effects aren't studied or noted?

Quick recap of how clinical trials work:

Phase I - This is the initial introduction to humans. This study concentrates on how the drug is absorbed, metabolized, and excreted, and the number of subjects is between 40 and 80; the patients do not have the disease for which the drug is indicated.

Phase II - Similar to phase I, but this time in patients who do suffer from the disease. As a general rule, this group rarely exceeds 1200 or so in number. In addition, most phase II studies are randomized trials. One group of patients will receive the experimental drug, while a second "control" group will receive a standard treatment or placebo and these studies are also usually "blind"-- neither the patients nor the researchers know who is getting the experimental drug.

Phase III - After efficacy has been established, the drug is then given to a larger number of patients (usually around 3000) in different clinical settings to determine its safety, effectiveness and appropriate dosage. Assuming the drug is considered safe (in addition to being effective), it's after this phase that the drug is submitted to the FDA for approval. Again, this phase is randomized and blinded as a rule.

Phase IV - After approval, the pharm. company will continue testing the study drug or treatment to collect information about their effect in various populations, any side effects associated with long-term use, and its impact on quality of life.

It's generally only during (and after) Phase IV trials that we begin to see the long term effects. Also, the FDA can make a conditional approval - that is, the drug will be approved only if company promises to run Phase IV studies afterwards .

Which brings us to...

Drugs will sometimes kill people. This is of course tragic...but as Amorymeltzer very accurately pointed out, the ratio of drugs:death compared to terrorist acts:death shows that the comparison is unfair at best.

For the record:

I was never employed by the FDA.
I was, however, contracted by an independent research organization (CRO) to verify, analyze and tabulate clinical trial data; I'm very aware of the failings of both the FDA and the pharmaceutical industry, but the point remains: These drugs generally do far more good than harm.

and i found out that taking this drug long term could increase the chances of dying early as a result of a heart attack.. Pharmaceutical companies are getting away with murder LITTERALLY.

How on earth do you figure that?! Do you know what the definition of murder actually is? Sorry, but that entire statement is ridiculous.

If for no other reason than the obvious:

Dead people do not need, or buy, drugs.

That'd be defeating the "object", don't you think? Perhaps more importantly though, if there IS a warning like that, it's giving YOU, the patient, the opportunity to make an informed decision - do the benefits of that drug outweight the risks? It's actually for YOUR benefit that such warnings are given. It's hardly murderous.

Originally posted by Tinkleflower
I'm going to repost something I did a few months back, concerning drug trials. chrmdrx1971, I'm surprised you still think (after working in a pharmacy) that side effects aren't studied or noted?

Tink, I am well aware of how clinical trials work. At the time of my last post I guess I got carried away and didn't phrase quite what I meant. I do agree that in the long run the benefits out number the risks. and I agree with your point that the ratio of terrorist acts to drug related death is a bit excessive. I guess in my particular experience it was rather frustrating because I found information to support that it was most likely the medication causing the problems, and the doctors did not want to hear it. Yes, there could have been other causes, that is why many tests were run. But when the tests did not find what they wanted them to and all that was left was the medication, they still did not want to hear of it.

I was just pointing out one particular instance. No, the majority of people are not going to be affected to this extreme, but for the few that are there could be more information. Thanks for your input.

Originally posted by chrmdrx1971

Originally posted by Tinkleflower
I'm going to repost something I did a few months back, concerning drug trials. chrmdrx1971, I'm surprised you still think (after working in a pharmacy) that side effects aren't studied or noted?

Tink, I am well aware of how clinical trials work. At the time of my last post I guess I got carried away and didn't phrase quite what I meant. I do agree that in the long run the benefits out number the risks. and I agree with your point that the ratio of terrorist acts to drug related death is a bit excessive. I guess in my particular experience it was rather frustrating because I found information to support that it was most likely the medication causing the problems, and the doctors did not want to hear it. Yes, there could have been other causes, that is why many tests were run. But when the tests did not find what they wanted them to and all that was left was the medication, they still did not want to hear of it.

I was just pointing out one particular instance. No, the majority of people are not going to be affected to this extreme, but for the few that are there could be more information. Thanks for your input.

Glad your more reasonable..., I'd still say a bit of a difference...it was HUGE, I would really weight it on a scale, terrorism would send drugs flying off the other side, in terms of weight equalling danger.

I guess that could be frusterating, but it's because they won't listen to anything unless it's a mass spread study, with tons of people involved, done for over a period of years, and by a person with a PHD, especially for something like taking a drug off the market, it's no offence, what I mean..the doctors mean no offence! They probably are just dismissive of a pharmacist claiming that a drug is faulty, after the approval process, and don't even want to deal with things they probably get all the time like that, but I hope your not right abuot whatever drug it was...

Originally posted by QuestForSafety
I think this is complete nonsense to discredit health benefits from prescription drugs, which in my lifetime, have been proven to SAVE MY LIFE, on various occasions.

Nobody is discrediting health benefits. Your one example does not discount the fact that the US is taking more drugs (and being killed by them) than ever before.

To this day I take overaround 22 presription medications a day.

Do you mind if I ask what condition you have that requires all those drugs? And yes, I'm not saying that they are no good across the board and that NO ONE ever benefits from drugs. I take a perscription drug myself.

My concern is that every time I go to my doctor, he is pushing drugs on me that I don't need. For depression because I'm not sleeping just right. For blood pressure because I need to be more active, and so on. It's the first course of action for many doctors and many people. We're starting to have the mindset that 'there must be a pill I can take for this.'

I just think of all the people who say, "Sure I'll take the drug." to cover the symptom or lose weight or bring their cholesterol down while they're eating at McDonald's, instead of exploring the problem.

As for terrorists, they slaughter thousands upon thousands, with a SINGLE attack.

On 9/11, almost 3000 were killed. What other terrorist attack has killed 'thousands upon thousands'?

Benevolent -

You're absolutely correct that both doctors and patients are continuing the cycle of "more pills, more pills".

(High bp, just as an example, often can't be lowered by exercise and diet alone - and if you have severely high BP, a prescription can quickly get you down to a range where you're no longer in a critical situation, if nothing else, and enable you to catch up and make the lifestyle changes. Ideally, we'd catch this before it gets to critical, where exercise and diet can indeed solve the problem, but for some people that's never going to be enough).

Ever heard a friend, or a colleague, say "Oh, I have this really rotten flu, but the doctor won't give me any fleckin' antibiotics!"?

I've heard that so, so often. You can say "But..uh...a cold is a virus...and antibiotics won't do jack to a virus...." till you're blue in the face, but sometimes, some doctors will feel so pressured by the patient, that they'll simply agree and hand out a lowdose medication to appease the patient. This isn't good, and it isn't really acceptable - but perhaps understandable where a private doctor's practice depends on his patients not wandering off to a doctor who WILL prescribe without a second thought.

Perhaps part of the problem is also down to our current obsession with a quick fix. We want instant food, instant credit, instant gratification - and yes, instant cures or fixes for various medical complaints. We've become very, very lazy - and that's harmful to our health for it's own reasons! - and now we have patients and doctors, and pharmaceutical companies, all playing roulette.

We're taking more medicines, yes. And by simple extension, more people will die. But more people will also be aided, and sometimes cured, because of these same medicines.

Ideally, we'd be searching for balance - a balance between common sense (sensible diet, getting off our collective butts and moving around more, and keeping our stress levels low), and asking for medicinal help only when it's actually needed. That's where physicians need to be more astute, too.

About doctors and drug payments: despite many rumours to the contrary, doctors generally don't get paid every time they prescribe a particular drug. Sure, most have their own preferences, but this goes out of the window when the drug goes generic. If they write "Tylenol" on your prescription, you're going to get the generic unless there's a damn good reason you absolutely must take the brand name - if you're allergic to one generic brand's filler or colouring agent, for example. But as a general rule, no, your doctor isn't on any special kickback for prescribing Darvocet over Tylenol #3.

(Drugs prescribed as part of a clinical trial are different - if anyone really wants to dig into that, I can do that in a different post )

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

Originally posted by QuestForSafety
I think this is complete nonsense to discredit health benefits from prescription drugs, which in my lifetime, have been proven to SAVE MY LIFE, on various occasions.

Nobody is discrediting health benefits. Your one example does not discount the fact that the US is taking more drugs (and being killed by them) than ever before.

To this day I take overaround 22 presription medications a day.

Do you mind if I ask what condition you have that requires all those drugs? And yes, I'm not saying that they are no good across the board and that NO ONE ever benefits from drugs. I take a perscription drug myself.

My concern is that every time I go to my doctor, he is pushing drugs on me that I don't need. For depression because I'm not sleeping just right. For blood pressure because I need to be more active, and so on. It's the first course of action for many doctors and many people. We're starting to have the mindset that 'there must be a pill I can take for this.'

I just think of all the people who say, "Sure I'll take the drug." to cover the symptom or lose weight or bring their cholesterol down while they're eating at McDonald's, instead of exploring the problem.

As for terrorists, they slaughter thousands upon thousands, with a SINGLE attack.

On 9/11, almost 3000 were killed. What other terrorist attack has killed 'thousands upon thousands'?

First of all, you just answered your own question, thousands were killed on that horrible, tragic day.

Second, some of the reasons I take my meds are EXTREMELY personal, but I will reveal *some* of the medications, but I refuse to alleviate WHY I have to take these, as it's really medically personal issues. I'm only going to name the first 5 popping into my head, okay?

Erythromicin - Antibiotic
Effexor XR - New Age Antianxiety + With max dosage, which I'm on, and higher, it serves as a decent helper for being an antidepressant, sometimes used with other meds
Clonazapam - Tranquilizer, used for many purposes, to calm, aid in sleep, ect.
Zoplicone - (On a permanent basis for this, and clonaz, DESPITE laws, I DO have a magic voice =P), this is a sleep aid, classified as a hypnotic/effective sleeping pill
Respiradon - Various uses, but...oh whatever...I'll just SAY it, I'm using it NOT for it's normal use, but for emotional stability problems, so as a mood stabilizer

So........that's just 5 of the grand regime! N plus aside from script meds I take tons of supplements, since I want to stay healthy...^_^

*Needs to rush off*

Okies...

Oh, and don't be concerned, the doctor most likely has your good health at heart, my nana refuses to take anti depressants, god knows why, and she starts crying when she decides she shouldn't have gone out to lunch, but did because she was hungry, or has so much anxiety rather, that making decisions really gets to her, so she NEEDS an anti anxiety, but no she thinks the same thing, I'm just saying SOMETIMES, GOOD doctors, have your health as a concern, maybe their trying to help you? They don't get money for the pills after all, and benefit in no way having to research, ect.

Plus...well if you think the doctors forced these on me.....I've had to......what..more than quadrople doctoring now....eeep I'm an offender! =P, but seriously, I've been carefully sometimes they try to talk me OUT of some meds, but my research makes me press to want them, then use my magical voice to finally get them to give in...(In Canada government pays, so they rarely give out drugs without 100% approval)

Hope that's all!

*Dashes off*

The drugs you've listed can be more than a little troublesome if taken together (particularly with the increased CNS depression), in high dosages, unusual quantities, for long term, or for off-label use.

Please, please, please be careful. I know you're an intelligent woman - but you mentioned "Plus...well if you think the doctors forced these on me.....I've had to......what..more than quadrople doctoring now....eeep I'm an offender! =P, but seriously, I've been carefully sometimes they try to talk me OUT of some meds, but my research makes me press to want them, then use my magical voice to finally get them to give in."

That worries me - not only because it's several doctors who might not be aware of everything else you're taking (and because they generally can't check up with your other doctors as to exactly what you're taking), but because you're kind of implying that you "talk them into it", a little. Sorry - I really don't want to come across as your Mom, but please, please believe me when I say that this is the major reason drug deaths occur: People not giving each doctor the exact information, and/or pursuading them to prescribe something they usually wouldn't.

I'm sure this world is a much nicer place with you in it - please, please, please be careful.



[edit on 5-8-2005 by Tinkleflower]

Yeah... That is very worrysome. This is part of the problem in the original post. And I'll admit I have an issue with people taking drugs to get through life.

I'm of the opinion that if a person can't sleep, they should find out why, get more exercise, lay of the coffee or alcohol, meditate, eat right, there are a hundred things they can do, but they reach for the pill. They just CAN'T give up their coffee! Are you kidding?! And they don't have time for exercise! Meditate, what are you, a guru? Hahahaha

It's a fad.It's the 'in' thing to do. All the young girls chat about which antidepressant(s) they're on and how they get several Rxs from several doctors (boy, don't they have those doctors fooled!). This is the problem!

And Tink, I don't think my doctor gets a kickback, it's just that most of his patients grab up the idea of a pill, so that's his first option. He's used to patients wanting the quick fix, like you said. He knows me now and no longer pushes pills on me, but I make him work. He has to think and ask and try to find out what's going on with me instead of just throwing some pills at me.

Drugs have always killed people. And that's to be expected. But recently, the numbers have skyrocketed. People (and kids!) are on drugs at a higher rate than ever before. This isn't about the danger of drugs so much as it is about the over-drugging of America.

Originally posted by Tinkleflower


The drugs you've listed can be more than a little troublesome if taken together (particularly with the increased CNS depression), in high dosages, unusual quantities, for long term, or for off-label use.

Please, please, please be careful. I know you're an intelligent woman - but you mentioned "Plus...well if you think the doctors forced these on me.....I've had to......what..more than quadrople doctoring now....eeep I'm an offender! =P, but seriously, I've been carefully sometimes they try to talk me OUT of some meds, but my research makes me press to want them, then use my magical voice to finally get them to give in."

That worries me - not only because it's several doctors who might not be aware of everything else you're taking (and because they generally can't check up with your other doctors as to exactly what you're taking), but because you're kind of implying that you "talk them into it", a little. Sorry - I really don't want to come across as your Mom, but please, please believe me when I say that this is the major reason drug deaths occur: People not giving each doctor the exact information, and/or pursuading them to prescribe something they usually wouldn't.

I'm sure this world is a much nicer place with you in it - please, please, please be careful.



[edit on 5-8-2005 by Tinkleflower]

Aww...thank you for your kindness, but really, it's not THAT much of a loss to the world, and besides, I'm sure I can handle my own health fine! I also am sure to take tons of supplements, and antioxidants from good sources I find to ensure good health, or various other uses they have.

You shouldn't worry so much! Thanks though, it's so sweet your concerned, though I don't really know why....I have various depressive disorders anyways, it's one reason I'm on a lot of pills to fix those issues, and as for sleep....they DID try to figure it out at the sleep clinic, when that failed n they did nothing it was time to do some work, and get myself a lifetime supply of sleeping pills, because I couldn't stand not sleeping at all.

Yes all my pills are long term, lifetime use, with no hope of me ever getting off them. N you /might/ notice that's impossible if you know about 3 of the drugs on that list, but nothings impossible, there's really no one to look after you, one must help themself.....so I did, and now it is lifetime..^^ All it takes is very very careful work.

I'm pretty sure my family physician is aware of most of them............I actually cut down one off my list, which was a caffeine pill I needed to wake up every morning, since it was causing me to get too sick, despite it's well affects.

I should probably look into some sort of pill that could counteract the way the caffeine pills makes me sick with everything on top of it at least, maybe an increase of Prevacid. I think that may help, or some sort of stomach barrier pill.....

Oh well, thanks though, and don't worry, I'm very responsible, and without the mass inclusion of my pills would have slit my throat long ago, and one can only be revived a certain amount of times, I'm much happier these days. Some people are born without skin, other born without emotional skin, leaving them helpless without a barrage of pills to help them, and with many different disorders if certain cirucumstances happen during child years, so UNFORTUNATELY these people do have to take pills to get through life, I hope you can just accept it, and move on, not play with their lives, by taking them off medications!

As a Health Care Rep. It just amazes me the amount of ignorance that lay people exhibit.

Yes, there are people who can “wish” themselves. To wellness. If it is psychosomatic (In the Head). But if it does have a physical manifestation on the Body past Holistic mind and soul. Then it truly can not be “cured” except by Medical intervention.

Depression is a disease. Much like Diverticulitis, arthritis, or The Common “cold”. It has physical symptoms, It has lab levels that clinically show a abnormality . Like Low Saritonin, Low Dopamine, High Nor-epinephrine, For Exp. The Brain Can be shown to be under stimulated in the “reward” center of the Brain. Leading to devaluation of effort and purpose. (ECG)

When typical person has a Common cold. They drink chicken soup or take a Nasal decongestant. Not meditate and Chant mantra’s.

You Treat the “Basic Needs” of the person. Before you ever treat the Self-actualization and above peak transcendental experiences.

Originally posted by msnevil
Yes, there are people who can “wish” themselves. To wellness.

I don't believe anyone said or even implied that that.

Depression is a disease.

My spouse has been diagnosed with clinical depression. I know exactly what it is. I ask a lot of questions. I'm not really all that ignorant on the subject.

My point here is that many people who do not need medication, whose brain is firing perfectly, could actually just stop eating donuts and fries all day and get up off their butts and move around a little bit and they'd sleep better and feel better about themselves. Their 'depression' is actually caused by their actions. But they're on 3 anti-depressants so they can feel ok about their inactivity and bad diet.

There is a real disease called depression, but I believe that over half the people on meds don't need to be, but they don't have the time, energy or will to do anything other than take a pill. Our society makes taking drugs so acceptable and attractive, that it's the first thing many people look for.

When typical person has a Common cold. They drink chicken soup or take a Nasal decongestant. Not meditate and Chant mantra’s.

Well, I've never claimed to be a typical person, thank God.

I suppose I'm really abnormal.

I do the chanting, the meditating and the soup-and-decongestant thing.

Guess what? My nose still gets runs faster than Linford Christie, and my head still hurts. That's just part of getting a cold.

But you're right, BH - too many of us are far, far too eager to hit the pharmacy before we really make any effort to get to the source of the problem ourselves.

Interestingly, I haven't had one cold or flu for the 10 years I've been taking herbal tinctures as preventative.

I'm sure it's a coincidence, though...

mmm... chicken soup!