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Originally posted by queenannie38
How then, did they become saved from unsaved if they weren't given access to the promises related to salvation--due to these things only applying to those already saved??!?!?!?
I think a review is in order. Because either you are good at evasion (which I don't believe for a minute since that require guile on your part, and I just don't see it) or you are not realizing what I am pointing out about what you said.
Originally posted by dbrandt
Then became saved when they put their faith in Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of their sins. The unsaved become saved at the acceptance of Jesus Christ as Saviour.
They were told that through Christ their sins are forgiven and they make a conscious decision to place their faith in Christ.
Originally posted by dbrandt
Not when you filter them through the requirement for salvation. That requirement is receiving Christ as Savior.
Originally posted by dbrandtAll of these books are addressed to people who have already accepted Christ as their Savior. The unsaved cannot claim the promises found in these books. Unsaved people can and will read these books and can learn of salvation and cometo the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ, but the promises do not apply to the unsaved.
Originally posted by queenannie38
So either I'm not understanding you or you are not understanding me. And I've tried to clarify where I'm coming from, in hopes we can get straight what we're both saying about this. I hope I did make it a little clearer, if indeed I had been confusing in my posts.
[edit on 8/7/2005 by queenannie38]
Originally posted by dbrandt
You are coming at these verses from one way and I am coming at them from the other way and so I think that is where the problem is.
The verses are surely read by the saved and unsaved. To the unsaved they speak of the salvation found in Christ when you place your faith in Jesus. To the saved they speak of the transformation that has taken place in us. They also help to build us up and reaffirm to us that we belong to Christ when we stumble and/or when we are under attack from the enemy.
hen it continues to say that "In the time of those kings,the god of Heaven will set upa kingdom that will never be destroyed.
Revelations talk's about two kingdoms coming the old heaven's will be destoyed and a new one created some odd 144 thousand thousand will go to heaven. Then it says the old earth will be detroyed and a new one created.If you read revelations chapter 21 it tell you about The New Jerusalem coming to earth for some to live with Jesus.
21.1. And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
For there shall be a new heaven and a new earth; and they shall not at all remember the former, neither shall it again come into their mind.
But they shall find in her joy and exultation; for behold, I make Jerusalem a rejoicing, and My people a joy (Isaiah 65.17-18).
We, according to His promise, wait for a new heaven and a new earth, in which dwelleth righteousness (II Peter 3.13).
“Here mention is made, not of the passing away into non-existence of creation, but of its change to a better state, as the apostle witnesses: the creature itself shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God (Romans 8.21).
And the divine Psalmist says: As a vesture shalt Thou fold them, and they shall be changed (Psalm 101.27)
The renewal of that which has grown old signifies, not the obliteration and annihilation, but the removal of old age and wrinkles.” (St. Andrew of Caesarea)
Not at all. Saying that is only saying that Christ is what He says He is, in Revelation: He who is, and who was, and who is to come. (both creator and redeemer--the Word, Logos, of God who was before the foundation of the world). He is the one 'that lived, and was dead; and, behold, is alive for evermore.'
Originally posted by slymattb
queenannie38 YOU MAKE alot of GREAT points too and God is of love.
(Jesus Christ is the alpha and the omega)is what you said
Saying this means Jesus is God himself.
No doubt--we are to worship the Father, not the Son--for we are all to be sons of the Father one day--through our Lives which are received through the Son--being hidden in Him for the present.
in John 17 1-20 jesus pray to god not himself.
Right--Jesus is the Son (builder of the family name) of the Father. The Father is the Most High, and the Son is at His right hand--serving as the 'Magistrate' of the kingdom and the 'Captain' of all the Host.
Jesus also said why call me good when only god is good.Jesus also says "no man nor son of man knows the timing of christ only the father know the timing of christ. If you read revelations chapter 4 &
5 God is siting on a throne holding The Scroll With Seven Seals, chapter 5 shows Jesus coming and taking the scroll our of his hands showing two different bodies. Jesus is the SON OF GOD( off spring of god)
That's a pretty harsh accusation, so I trust you have some evidence to back it up with, when asked.
Originally posted by prophetseeker
you are the reson men and women who claim to follow jesus still act as the world and do the things of the world.
That's the proof of the power, prophetseeker! You are saved by His grace--I am saved by that same Grace--my second grade teacher, your paper boy, the president of Nicaruagua, and even David Berkowitz are saved by that same grace! Does any one of us deserve it? Can we ever do anything to deserve it?
BECAUSE I AM SAVED BY THE GRACE OF GOD.
I trust, also, that you have some proof of me actually saying something to that effect--because otherwise you are just putting words in my mouth. Not once have I said it's okay to sin. It's not. But the majority of the world is estranged from God because of sin, and they don't even realize the enormity of what He's done, just so there is no reason any of us have to be separated from Him.
You Take the grace of GOD and turn it in to a permit to go and sin and that is how a lot of people believe and it stright out of hell.
Originally posted by queenannie38
The truth is that the only way to salvation is repentance and faith in Christ Jesus. He is the Way.
He died for all men, so that all men can be reconciled to God.
Because God wills that every man will come to the knowledge of the truth and will therefore repent.
For the goodness and justness of God is what brings us to repent. He is not drawing us to Him by making us flee the threat of hell--only arriving under His wing because we're scared of death more than we're scared of Him! What good is that kind of coercion?
He wants us to love Him and trust Him--and so He has shown that He even gave His son to die in our places, so that we know there is no reason we can't come to Him.
Originally posted by lightseeker
I'm not sure which verse you are referring to--
Say, rather, that God desires and longs for all to come to repentence. Just because the KJV translates the greek word qelei as "willeth" or "wills" in the New KJV and 20th Century KJV can just as easily be translated "desires", which it so translated in the New American Standard and NIV versions. The word Qelei in greek means "to will or wish insofar as it is possible to influence", (Robert's Word Pictures of the New Testament).
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
1 Timothy 2:4
This 'will' is thelo--and it is from the same root as the 'will' in the Lord's Prayer--'thy kingdom come, thy will be done.'...
As far as God is concerned--meaning the extent of possibility there is for Him to influence anyone or anything in His creation--do you not think He can?
True free will and the opportunity to choose are two different things--only God has free will and He gives us the opportunity to make choices in the present time.
I believe what Paul is saying here is that God desires all men to be saved and will attempt to influence them in His favor by means of the Gospel message and the convicting influence of the Holy Spirit. If God should make a blanket decision that all men were going to be saved by the sacrificial death on the cross by Jesus Christ, then, there would be no free will on our part; there would be no need for the Gospel to be preached or for anyone to even read the bible.
God hardened Pharoah's heart--literally controlled Pharoah's decisions about not letting the Hebrew slaves go at the plea of Moses. Pharoah thought he was deciding, but we are told otherwise in Exodus.
And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.
This isn't the only instance God made the decisions that seemed to men to be the choices made by their own will.
Why did God do these things in this manner, namely in Exodus? To reveal His glory. That is His purpose, even now, with the gospel message. The whole world doesn't believe because He hasn't willed it so, yet. Those that do, don't have faith of their own power--He gives it to us. We cannot know God unless He allows it and draws us to Him.
So do you think God held Pharoah accountable for a hardened heart--a heart God hardened for His purposes? Do you think Pharoah could resist or had any choice at all?
Indeed there would be no personal accountability at all.
Many choose to believe not because they love God but rather due to mortal fear and uncertainty. They believe not to be near Him but rather to escape some kind of eternal torment. And this isn't true belief and it's not what God wants. He doesn't want us to escape to Him from punishment but rather to seek His righteousness.
It is not coercion, Annie, it is a choice!
Where is His righteousness concerning 'being born into sin?' We are all born into sin. Obviously it's not something we are personally accountable for--because it is a state which happens before we have any say-so, before we're born. So we are born in a situation we can't prevent, but must do something in order to save ourselves from it?? Is that righteous or just? He created us--does He create any of us for the express purpose of sentencing us to doom, and allow others to escape same? If He knows all things, He surely knows who will be 'doomed' and who won't--is He a respector of persons? Does He play favorites with any of us?
God is Just, is He not?God is Righteous, also, right? So, if God does not hold us accountable for our own actions and unrighteousness, except we choose Christ as Savior, Who cancels that sin debt on our behalf, where is God's Justice, where is His righteousness?
I don't claim that--I'm just repeating what I read in the bible, without extra interpretation.
You cliam that you beleive that one day all will turn to Christ for salvation; that when they see Him coming in His Glory that all will fall to their knees and accept Him as Savior.
Is that something you've read in the bible?
I say that by that time it will be too late.
And so, if it is beyond their capacity--who is ultimately accountable for that? Themselves? Or God? Is He not perfect in every way, and hence, 100% responsible for all He created? Or is it something He created and then let run amok according to all the evil possibilities that He Himself could foresee?
Those who have hardened their hearts against Christ will curse Him or try to hide from Him, but they will not accept Him because they will not have the capacity to do so.
Why must it be that the only option somehow puts things out of His hands? Could it not be that He is truly merciful and has planned for all of mankind to meet His requirements? To say He will save everyone isn't saying He will compromise, it is saying He is so awesome that nothing is beyond His abilities or generosity.
And, what of all the hundreds and hundreds of millions of those who have died since Christ's day who refused to consider or even rejected God's Gracious offer of Salvation through Christ? How does God accept them into heaven without violating His own Righteousness and Justice?
I realize that you don't understand, and I realize I can't make you see something that only God can show you. And He will, when He's determined to do so. Then you'll experience what 'omnipotent' truly means.
It just doesn't compute, Annie.
Yes. He wants us to come to Him because of what Christ has done. But we must come, He will not force us against our own will.
How do you know that He won't? I don't think He will, at this time--or ever--His plan is much more magnificent that simple strong-arming. But I think that He can put whatever He wants into any heart that He wants to. He has before, why not do it again, for the sake and benefit of every creature?