The Return of Jesus Christ

Originally posted by queenannie38
you continue to say there is eternal separation from God. Yet there are verses that contradict that, too.

Not when you filter them through the requirement for salvation. That requirement is receiving Christ as Savior.

He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. 1 John 5:12

But as many as received(accepted, get hold of) him, to them gave he the power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name John 1:12

Matthew 25 clearly says that to reject Christ will mean everlasting punishment.

I am one who cannot unequivocally claim that any interpretation of a 2 000 year old event happened exactly as the majority feel. For example, I read that 'Judas turned'. Stated like it is absolute fact. I disagree. The interpretation I feel most partial to, but by no means certain of, is that he did not 'turn'.If Jesus was destined to die on the cross, and he had to pick one of his 12 loyal disciples to carry out the next hardest task after his own, which would be to betray him to the Romans, in order that he fulfill his destiny, my view is that he would trust that difficult task to whomever of the 12 he felt was so loyal that he would be able to do it. Imagine if Judas was loyal. How hard a task would that have been? He may have been the only one with enough courage and belief to send his beloved master to certain death, because his master told him to. I would think most of them could not bear to do it. So, Judas may have been a hero, fulfilling a role second only in difficulty to actually being crucified.

Originally posted by BlackGuardXIII
I am one who cannot ......majority feel.
, I read
The interpretation I feel
my view
He may
. I would think
, Judas may have

Edited for emphasis

Do you see the problem?
You are putting too much of you into scripture. Then adding some conjecture.
It is not longer scripture

You do not need to do my thinking for me, and I will let you make your own choices, however vastly different and incomprehensible those are to me. I put none of me into scripture. zip. nada. I see Gods handiwork in the Vedas, the Qu'ran, the KJAV, NIV, and Good News Bible, and in the I Ching, and Dhammapadda, and Bhagavad Gita. My view is that God writes in every language, not just English, and I feel that to assume that any one faith is somehow God's pet church, his favorite.... I could never do it. It makes no sense at all, and to me shows a lack of respect, a lack of love, and a lack of acceptance for other people. I am just as likely to be right as you. You are not incontrovertably right, and me absolutely certainly wrong.
No. No way. Unless you actually are God. My beliefs are never going to be dictated to me by you. And in return, I will not dictate what you should believe, I share my views, and then let you differ and still be right. You have an issue with that. that sucks

Originally posted by jake1997

Originally posted by BlackGuardXIII
I am one who cannot ......majority feel.
, I read
The interpretation I feel
my view
He may
. I would think
, Judas may have

Edited for emphasis

Do you see the problem?
You are putting too much of you into scripture. Then adding some conjecture.
It is not longer scripture

What blackguard is doing is no different than what all apologists do. They start with a desired outcome, then speculate on how that desired outcome might be true, and then conclude that since it's possibly true, therefor it is true.

On most topics, in most cases, I agree with you 100%.
On religion too.

Not on Christ. Its about a relationship. If we are going to decide the personality of Jesus Christ so that it fits us better, then it is no longer the Word that we are reading. Its our desire.
The same way that you are saying that I dont want you to think for yourself (something like that)...is exactly what you are doing to God and Jesus by adding your interpretation. Your changing it. Not letting it be what it says.
If God didnt mean what He said, why didnt he say what He meant?
Why would God leave His Word open to the WILL of mankind, knowing that our heart produces continually evil thoughts....so much so that He had to destroy the earth once.
It has to be Gods Word, without twist or spice...or it is no longer Gods word

Originally posted by dbrandt
Not when you filter them through the requirement for salvation. That requirement is receiving Christ as Savior.

He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. 1 John 5:12

But as many as received(accepted, get hold of) him, to them gave he the power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name John 1:12

Matthew 25 clearly says that to reject Christ will mean everlasting punishment.

Then explain these verses, please--and no filters.

Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
(Romans 5:18)

For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
(1 Timothy 2:3-6)

For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
(1 Timothy 4:10)

For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
(Titus 2:11)

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
(2 Peter 3:9)

Originally posted by queenannie38
Then explain these verses, please--and no filters.

Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
(Romans 5:18)

For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
(1 Timothy 2:3-6)

Here is the same verse from the New American Standard translation:

3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
6who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time

As you may note the emphasis is on man's response to the ransom that Christ paid for the sin of all men. Salvation is made available to ALL MEN by Christ's death and resurrection and God desires all men to be saved, implying and inferring that some will and some will not.

For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
(1 Timothy 4:10)

The operative part of the quote is in "especially those who believe." Again, the gift of salvation is available to All Men, in that He is not willing that any should perish,(2Pet 3:9), but making the gift operative, only to those who believe:

" This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." 1 John 1:5-7

For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
(Titus 2:11)

This is a true statement- the grace of God that brings salvation, has, appeared to all men; but the appearing and the effecting are two different things:

"Not everyone that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: Depart from me, ye that work iniquity." Matthew 7:21-23

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
(2 Peter 3:9)

Yes! He is longsuffering and patient toward us; He is not willing(desiring) that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
This very clearly implies that not all will come to repentance. Those that repent and turn to the Lord for forgiveness of sins through Christ, will be saved; those who don't, won't.

Grace & Peace,

Lightseeker


]

This is for you BlackGuard..The bible says that judas was a theif and this is a fact it is in the word. He did not love jesus he was in charge of the money and when mary was going to pour the oil on his feet judas said why do that we can sell it and give it to the poor. The bible said that judas said it only so he could steal the money because he was always dipping his hand into the money purse and stealing. jesus had to have one who would betray him and knowing judas was a lover of money and a theif he chose him. Judas saw the love of the truth and the light that was jesus and he loved the darkness more then the light.
May the grace and peace be upon all that are the Fathers.PS Read the whole word and you might answer with the truth when asked.prophetseeker

[edit on 4-8-2005 by prophetseeker]

Originally posted by lightseeker


As you may note the emphasis is on man's response to the ransom that Christ paid for the sin of all men

What kind of precedence does humanity have for selective retreival of redeemed hostages due to a condition under the power of the hostage? Does any man pay to free two men, yet only take one--leaving the other to continue as a hostage?

That's a ridiculous proposition and doesn't bear up to true character of God.

When Christ offered Himself as sacrifice--every single soul in the world was an 'unsaved sinner' and the one who sought God literally one in a million--so to say He only saved the repentant is unfounded--only those baptised by John in the Jordan had so far repented--so unless you concoct some kind of Godly respect for any man's personage--it must follow that all men will come to repentance in the end.

It's the very fact that He gave His only begotten Son that says the world is the whole world. Why would God do anything unjust or unfair? If you or I receive the benefits of ransom, then there is nothing--absolutely nothing--that makes us any more deserving of that ransom than say, umm, an african headhunter.

The operative part of the quote is in "especially those who believe." Again, the gift of salvation is available to All Men, in that He is not willing that any should perish,(2Pet 3:9), but making the gift operative, only to those who believe:

Especially is a superlative adverb--and as such, is only used when there is already a condition of completeness or fullness being present--because it is 'all' and 'then some' or 'in a greater degree.'

(2 Peter 3:9)

Yes! He is longsuffering and patient toward us; He is not willing(desiring) that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
This very clearly implies that not all will come to repentance. Those that repent and turn to the Lord for forgiveness of sins through Christ, will be saved; those who don't, won't.

'Thy kingdom come, thy will be done.' That's not saying 'what you want might come about.' The idea of God being long-suffering also carries the knowledge of His omnipotence. He's patient with us to indulge us, not to hope that we do what He desires.

What God wills, He does. Period. If He wills that all should come to repentance, then will it not come to be, exactly as He's put forth?

No one is rewarded by salvation, only through efforts put forth in His name after realizing His grace in that release from the world. For salvation not to not be ultimately a reward of some sort, it must be available to all, and received of all. Perceiving one is to be saved is not the same as the actual salvation--all of us, still living in the flesh, are not yet literally saved. But some of us have faith in the fact that we will, and some don't--for whatever their reasons may be. People say 'I'm saved' and really the only thing they can say is that they realize there is certainty in that hope and so are now waiting in expectation with the understanding of what they're waiting for. Even Paul said as much, in many ways, in his epistles.

And I don't see that as what some deem 'universalism'. Universalism is like saying everyone can get there by whatever way they choose--there's as many truths as there are souls.

That can't be right--He said He was the way.

I'm not saying that we can all go however we feel is the right way, yet I do read in the bible that ultimately all men will get there, and also that there is but one Way to get there, and only one door.

If it doesn't seem possible, well?


With God ALL things are possible!

To Queen
The Fathers words that he gave to be spoken to all of us about his saveing grace is for all people that will except jesus and what he did on the cross to meet the fulliment of GODS punishment on sin. When we believe that jesus died for our sins we are pardoned and thank jesus for it. But it does not give us the right to continue to do evil and sin. Jesus says he that overcomes as i overcame will inherit heaven as there home. Jesus also said not all will be granted salvation only those that do the will of the Father. There are so many things that jesus said about people thinking they are going to heaven and in the end they wind up in hell. Not all that call him lord will enter the kingdom. If you are doing everything you want like lusting and killing and stealing, talking bad about other people never forgiving people and acting like the devil then do not tell others that your are on your way to be with jesus because it is a lie. The road to hell is wide and many go that way but the road to heaven is narrow and not to many will find it. The bible tells us pray that you are found worthy and that your name is not bloted out from jesus book of life.May the grace and peace of the Father be upon all that are his.prophetseeker

Originally posted by queenannie38


What kind of precedence does humanity have for selective retreival of redeemed hostages due to a condition under the power of the hostage? Does any man pay to free two men, yet only take one--leaving the other to continue as a hostage?

That's a ridiculous proposition and doesn't bear up to true character of God.

Suppose that you had committed a lifetime of hienous and despicable crimes; murder, arson, armed robbery, the whole gamut. You don't feel the least guilt for your crimes and you will continue to commit the same kinds of acts for the rest of your life. Now, suppose that you are reading the paper one day and you see that this man has been arrested and executed for all of the crimes that you have commited in your life; not only that, he has willingly agreed to be executed for all of the crimes commmited by every other person who ever lived. Now, suppose that same article mentions that, because this man has paid the penalty, for all the crimes of all the men who actually committed them, a full pardon was available to anyone who would come forward and confess to the crimes he committed and personally accept the full pardon from the President. Now, in order for the pardon to be effective, you must personally admit your guilt and accept the pardon, and you only have a limited time in which to act; after that you will be found, tried and convicted and sentenced to death. WHAT DO YOU DO? Do you tell everyone that you have been pardoned before you actually do your part of the agreement? Do you convince yourself that since this man has already been executed for your crime that you don't have to personally accept the pardon? If you don't and they catch you and send you to stand trial, do you think that argument would have any weight? What if the judge in the case was the father of the man who took your place in the electric chair.? "Your Honor, I never, actually, accepted the pardon but I figured since this guy Jesus has already been executed in my place, that should be good enough, I don't have to meet the original conditions of the pardon and you should set me free." I don't know about you, but I don't think that would be accepted as a viable argument, based on the original requirements of the pardon. What do you think? That is what is entailed in the "offer" and "acceptance" of salvation.

No one is rewarded by salvation, only through efforts put forth in His name after realizing His grace in that release from the world. For salvation not to not be ultimately a reward of some sort, it must be available to all, and received of all. Perceiving one is to be saved is not the same as the actual salvation--all of us, still living in the flesh, are not yet literally saved. But some of us have faith in the fact that we will, and some don't--for whatever their reasons may be. People say 'I'm saved' and really the only thing they can say is that they realize there is certainty in that hope and so are now waiting in expectation with the understanding of what they're waiting for. Even Paul said as much, in many ways, in his epistles.

Salvation is not a reward. There is not one thing that any of us could do to deserve it. It is a free gift; but gifts have to be received to be a gift. Some might not even consider it a gift at all. Knowing you have received the gift comes from acctually receiving the gift from the giver. If you are just expecting the gift someday but haven't actually received it yet then it is not a gift, at the most it is the possibility of a gift; not the same thing at all. If you don't personally know the gift giver,( as many in this world do not), then how do you even know about the gift? What about those who don't like the gift or think it is worthless.?Do those people keep the gift? would they even accept it in the first place.?

That can't be right--He said He was the way.

I'm not saying that we can all go however we feel is the right way, yet I do read in the bible that ultimately all men will get there, and also that there is but one Way to get there, and only one door.

If it doesn't seem possible, well?

With God ALL things are possible!

He is the Way(with a capitol "W"). There is no scripture reference that says explicitly that all men will be saved. Quite the contrary. Consider:

"I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." John 14:6

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father." John 14:12

He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. John 14:21

If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father’s which sent me. John14:23-24

Those are just from the 14th chapter of John; I could list a hundred or more that say the same thing. God's gift of salvation is not a passive thing, it requires action and doing much more than just believing that one day you will be saved. "When the Son shall set you free, you shall be free indeed."
John 8:36

Now, there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. Romans 8:1


"For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day." John 6:40

Grace and Peace,

Lightseeker

Originally posted by dbrandt
Not when you filter them through the requirement for salvation. That requirement is receiving Christ as Savior.


(Romans 5:18)
(1 Timothy 2:3-6)
(1 Timothy 4:10)
(Titus 2:11)
(2 Peter 3:9)

Lets look to see who these books are addressed to

Romans1:6&7-Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ: To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints:

1 Timothy 1:2- Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith:

Titus 1:1&4-..............according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness........To Titus, mine own son after the common faith:

2 Peter 1:1-...........to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ.

All of these books are addressed to people who have already accepted Christ as their Savior. The unsaved cannot claim the promises found in these books. Unsaved people can and will read these books and can learn of salvation and cometo the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ, but the promises do not apply to the unsaved.

[edit on 5-8-2005 by dbrandt]

[edit on 5-8-2005 by dbrandt]

Originally posted by lightseeker
I don't have to meet the original conditions of the pardon and you should set me free."

A pardon is forgiveness but a ransom (as I was referring to) is a redemption price paid for someone who is somehow held hostage--as either a hostage or in servitude. Ransom frees someone from captivity.

If you don't personally know the gift giver,( as many in this world do not), then how do you even know about the gift? What about those who don't like the gift or think it is worthless.?Do those people keep the gift? would they even accept it in the first place.?

Exactly. So does God play favorites in any way or does He respect persons individually? No. How does that work out? Something isn't right.

There is no scripture reference that says explicitly that all men will be saved.

You're kidding me. I don't mind listing them again, but I can't believe you say there is no scripture to that effect.

• The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. John 1:7-9
  
• And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. This he said, signifying what death he should die. John 12:32-33
  
• And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: Acts 2:17
  
• Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. Acts 3:21
  
• Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed. Acts 3:25
  
• That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things. Acts 15:17
  
• And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead. Acts 17:30-31
  
• Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. Romans 5:18
  
• For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. Romans 11:32
  
• For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 1Corinthians 15:22
  
• For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again. 2Corinthians 5:14-15
  

And that's just a small percentage. How do you account for these verses? Not once do I find the 'all' qualified in any way.

Those are just from the 14th chapter of John; I could list a hundred or more that say the same thing. God's gift of salvation is not a passive thing, it requires action and doing much more than just believing that one day you will be saved. "When the Son shall set you free, you shall be free indeed."

I am aware of all these verses, and don't deny they are true and speak the truth--after all, to believe scripture is to believe all of it.


Obviously there's something more--because I do not believe God is a contradiction, but so far, I've only encountered people (for the most part) who either accept one way and ignore the other or vice versa, when it comes to 'all are saved' vs. 'only those who believe are saved.'

Also--what about what Paul says?



Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Romans 3:22-28

Originally posted by queenannie38
A pardon is forgiveness but a ransom (as I was referring to) is a redemption price paid for someone who is somehow held hostage--as either a hostage or in servitude. Ransom frees someone from captivity.

Yes, you are correct; we have been ransomed from sin by what Christ did for us. However, not everyone ransomed by Christ wants to leave their captivity; even though the Father loves His child enough to pay such a enormous price to ransom them, the child does not love the Father and would rather stay in captivity than go home.

Exactly. So does God play favorites in any way or does He respect persons individually? No. How does that work out? Something isn't right.

God does not play favorites in any way. But He does have standards. Consider:

"Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him;" Acts 10:34-35

"And, ye masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing threatening: knowing that your Master also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him;" Ephesians 6:9

"But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons;" Colossians 3:25

"And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear" 1Peter 1:17

So, no, God does not play favorites. But, note that in all of these verses there is some call to action or condition that must be fulfilled.:

...he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him;" Acts 10:34-35

...do the same things unto them, forbearing threatening... Ephesians 6:9

...he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done...Colossians 3:25

And if ye call on the Father,... 1Peter 1:17

There is no scripture reference that says explicitly that all men will be saved.

You're kidding me. I don't mind listing them again, but I can't believe you say there is no scripture to that effect.

• The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. John 1:7-9
  
• And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. This he said, signifying what death he should die. John 12:32-33
  
• And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: Acts 2:17
  
• Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. Acts 3:21
  
• Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed. Acts 3:25
  
• That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things. Acts 15:17
  
• And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead. Acts 17:30-31
  
• Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. Romans 5:18
  
• For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. Romans 11:32
  
• For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 1Corinthians 15:22
  
• For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again. 2Corinthians 5:14-15
  

And that's just a small percentage. How do you account for these verses? Not once do I find the 'all' qualified in any way.

That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. John 1:9. This is John the Baptist speaking about Jesus and noting that only some had been drawn to himself, but that Jesus would draw all men to Himself, not save all men." Many are called but few are chosen." Matthew 22:14

But Jesus shouted out, “The one who believes in me does not believe in me, but in the one who sent me, and the one who sees me sees the one who sent me. I have come as a light into the world, so that everyone who believes in me should not remain in darkness. If anyone hears my words and does not obey them, I do not judge him. For I have not come to judge the world, but to save the world. The one who rejects me and does not accept my words has a judge; the word I have spoken will judge him at the last day. For I have not spoken from my own authority, but the Father himself who sent me has commanded me what I should say and what I should speak. And I know that his commandment is eternal life. Thus the things I say, I say just as the Father has told me.” John 12:44-50

And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. Acts 2:21

Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. Act 2:37-39

Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
Acts 3:19

That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things. Acts 15:17

And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead. Acts 17:30-31

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Romans 5:17-19

Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. Romans 11:32
* note that in many instances the word "Might" or "May" is used instead of "Will", which implies some conditional response from the one on whom mercy or forgiveness or salvation is imparted.*

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 1Corinthians 15:22 * to be made alive one must "Be in Christ". The whole world is not now nor ever shall be "in Christ"; only those who believe

For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again. 2Corinthians 5:14-15 * how many of the people that you consider to be saved by Christ's death and reurrection, do you know of who live for Christ and not just for themselves.?

You see Annie, if you only take the part of the verse that you agree with or do not take the individual verse in the context of the preceding and prodeeding verses, you can run into trouble. If you read the verses you cited in the context of the entire chapter, you find that thers is much more to show that "belief" and "acceptance" in Christ and of what He died for than the other way around.

I am aware of all these verses, and don't deny they are true and speak the truth--after all, to believe scripture is to believe all of it.

Obviously there's something more--because I do not believe God is a contradiction, but so far, I've only encountered people (for the most part) who either accept one way and ignore the other or vice versa, when it comes to 'all are saved' vs. 'only those who believe are saved.'

God is not a condradiction, you are right. He is straight ahead and says what He means and means what He says; what He says though is not that
"all men" will be saved, but that "all men who believe" will be saved. But I don't see where that would be problem for you. You obviously love God and Christ and are grateful for what He has done. Just make it formal, if you haven't already done it, just tell God how much you love Him and that you are formally accepting His gracious( and it is Grace)offer of salvation through Christ. Of course, you have to repent and depend on God for the power to live your life His Way, but I have faith that you can and that He can.

at about what Paul says?



Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Romans 3:22-28

...all them that believe.. ...the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith...( all taken from the verse you cited. Do you see what I mean, now. Annie? God Bless you.

Grace and Peace,

Lightseeker

Originally posted by dbrandt
A 1000 years is like a day to God, so Jesus has only been gone for 2 days in God's view.

Really? is that in the bible does it actually say 1k years = 1 day in the life of mr god?



Jesus is back already, he steals hubcaps and claims Latin Kings.

Jesus may be here already!

Stare at the 4 dots in the middle of the following image for 30 seconds (try your best not to blink) and then look at a white surface...



remember that jesus loves you (..but only as a friend)

Originally posted by lightseeker
God does not play favorites in any way. But He does have standards.

Sure He does, and those are such that no man could ever meet them, hence we have been given the advocate, the HS, to bring us into alignment with His law (since no man, no flesh is capable of being lawful according to God's standards). And that is given after we believe and repent, so we are offered pardon for our sins while still being in them. Christ died for sinners, because not one man was yet forgiven for sins until He died.

Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. Romans 11:32
* note that in many instances the word "Might" or "May" is used instead of "Will", which implies some conditional response from the one on whom mercy or forgiveness or salvation is imparted.*

The use of might, may, or will, is purely arbitrary in the case of these greek verbs--some form of 'be' must be included in order to translate conherently into the english language and shouldn't be understood as an indication of sincerity or extent of inclusion--which elsewhere, is indicated by a word usually translated as 'perhaps'. The may, might, or will, in these cases is not a word separated from the verb itself, but rather 2 or 3 words have been used to translate the full meaning of the verb being used. Greek is much like latin, these are conjugational prepositions, not conditional or qualifying ones. The condition implied is one of God's preparation--that He concluded them in disbelief so that He could have mercy on all. My use of words is probably not perfectly correct when trying to explain these factors related to semantics--but I hope you understand what I am saying here.

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 1Corinthians 15:22 * to be made alive one must "Be in Christ". The whole world is not now nor ever shall be "in Christ"; only those who believe

How do you know that the whole world will not believe at some future date? Obviously we were all in Adam, and that same 'all' is carried onto Christ in this verse. If all were dead in Adam, then all will live in Christ.

how many of the people that you consider to be saved by Christ's death and reurrection, do you know of who live for Christ and not just for themselves.?

I don't know hardly anyone who even comes close to this description, only based on outward indications. But then again, I cannot know the heart of another man. I do know that most people delude themselves about what it is they live for, but that's part and parcel of living in a fleshly body in a fleshly world.

God is not a condradiction, you are right. He is straight ahead and says what He means and means what He says; what He says though is not that
"all men" will be saved, but that "all men who believe" will be saved. But I don't see where that would be problem for you.

It's not exactly a problem for me, but to read these scriptures (in context), with all the accumulative understanding of the rest of the scripture, there just isn't sound support that God only gave Christ to those who would believe--and I'm saying not according to what I want to believe--because if I feel certain of my own relationship with God, should it matter to me about any others?
This verse, in context, and according to the greek originally used, retains the meaning it has when simply read in english on its own:

Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
1 Timothy 2:4

In this verse, the 'will' is not part of the verb's conjugation, but is the verb itself, translated from one that means the same as 'intends' or 'determines'--in no way is it anything but will. He will have all men to be saved. And He will have all men come to the knowledge of the truth. There's no qualifiers in this verse, nor in the entire 2nd chapter of 1 Timothy.


So you see, the thing is, the bible does say this--and just because we don't see it happening right now, or even see any possibility of it happening later one--doesn't mean that God didn't mean what He said. There are many misunderstandings of certain key elements in the bible, mainly due to faulty translations from Greek to English--that make it appear there are contradictions in the message. So most just ignore the parts which don't fit with what they've come to believe in their lifetime--instead of just trusting in God to tell the truth and do what He says. The most popular idea seems to be in favor of some sort of eternal punishment or death rather than regenerative healing for all souls--except those who were chosen beforehand to serve as servants and witnesses for the mercy and love of God that will be manifested in His healing of the nations rather than the obliteration of souls. (Revelation 22:2)

The biggest discrepancy with the eternal punishment idea is that in the end we are left with the 'elect'--who are to be kings and priests, and then those who are either dead/destroyed forever or out of commission due to eternal torment in another place, forever. Who will the elect serve, then, in their roles of Priests and kings? They will serve under God, surely--but who will be those they serve? Each other? That's not very plausible--and seems like idle fantasy/make-believe that God wouldn't spend so much in order to bring about--sort of like 'playing kingdom' rather than 'playing house' or 'playing doctor'.

You obviously love God and Christ and are grateful for what He has done. Just make it formal, if you haven't already done it, just tell God how much you love Him and that you are formally accepting His gracious( and it is Grace)offer of salvation through Christ. Of course, you have to repent and depend on God for the power to live your life His Way, but I have faith that you can and that He can.

I appreciate you saying that to me, in case that I haven't made it formal, as you say. Just to let you know, I did this about 28 years ago, and God has worked on me for all that time, in a myriad of mysterious and miraculous ways. Every event in my life, both 'good' and 'bad' I know look at with the understanding that in all cases they were proof of His love as well as purpose for me. Sometimes it's hard to trust in Him, though the belief is there. It's like the difference between knowing someone's real and depending on them for something vital to your survival. Sometimes we don't realize our source of sustenance until all other sources are void. And sometimes if we don't acknowledge God's hand outsretched to us to lift us up, He will knock us on our behinds in order to demonstrate. I think He surely had quite the stubborn one with me in that case. LOL

...all them that believe.. ...the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith...( all taken from the verse you cited. Do you see what I mean, now. Annie?

Justification is not the same thing as salvation (deliverance).

Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past,

Here we have the redemption for the remission of sins already done.

that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Romans 3:22-28

Justification is something that occurs afterward on and continuing--what this says to me is similar to what Paul says in Titus 1:15:

Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.

Now we know that baptism is for the purpose of repentance, basically the cleasing of the conscience in order for the HS to take up residence and guide our actions in righteousness. We die in Christ so that we can live in Christ, dying to sin and therefore, to death. Once we are justified by believing in Christ (truly believing) then we are 'pure' as Paul says, and our deeds are justified as such. This goes without saying that those who truly and actually fit this description aren't going to take that as a ticket to sin with impunity--for with the HS leading one's actions sin is something avoided and resisted, because that's part of the help we get, resisting temptation. Not to say we don't mess up--but when we do, if we are continuing in our faith, we are not reverted back to being punishable by the law of the letter. I guess, to put it simply, because our intentions are good and in good faith, not selfishly motivated and in the spirit of unbelief--and done as members within the body of Christ, not the world.

As well, it's part of the 'letting your light shine before men' thing:

Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
Romans 3:31

God Bless you.

Grace and Peace,

Lightseeker

God bless you, too, Lightseeker--I am glad to know that you don't take my persistance as anything done to antagonize or to bait you--at least I hope that I'm perceiving you correctly. And I recognize your attitude as not one of contention but of agape.

It is good to study in a thorough manner, and sometimes we can learn more in a debate kind of situation--the ideal of such message boards but rarely the actuality.

Originally posted by dbrandtLets look to see who these books are addressed to

1 Timothy 1:2- Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith:

Who Paul was mentoring to follow in His own ministry--spreading the gospel so that many would hear and so then might believe. He is giving Timothy instructions regarding this--not in regard to Timothy's own salvation--which would seem sure, but then again that might not be true:

Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.
1 Timothy 4:16

????

At any rate, Paul is speaking of things in general, not just applicable to those who are saved. Why would Timothy spread the gospel and speak truth to those who have already heard it? While part of what he was training for was ministering to the saints, part of it was preaching the gospel to the gentiles, who, by sheer definition of the world gentile are obviously not saved, yet.

And what Paul tells Timothy is:

I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity. I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.
1 Timothy 2:1-8

Titus 1:1&4-..............according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness........To Titus, mine own son after the common faith:

The complete unabridged verses:

Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness; In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began; But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour; To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour.
Titus 1:1-4

It may have been written only to one certain member of the election--Titus obviously is elect, and so is Paul, and therefore Paul greets him according to their mutual faith--that of the elect. But the tone of the letter is similar to those written to Timothy--for much the same purpose--and while it may be written to only one person in the whole world, it is concerning many more persons than just the two involved in the correspondence.

All of these books are addressed to people who have already accepted Christ as their Savior. The unsaved cannot claim the promises found in these books. Unsaved people can and will read these books and can learn of salvation and cometo the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ, but the promises do not apply to the unsaved.

Now that simply doesn't make sense.

The promises of salvation are only applicable to those who have already been 'saved'? How then, did they become saved from unsaved if they weren't given access to the promises related to salvation--due to these things only applying to those already saved??!?!?!?

Originally posted by Lysergic

Originally posted by dbrandt
A 1000 years is like a day to God, so Jesus has only been gone for 2 days in God's view.

Really? is that in the bible does it actually say 1k years = 1 day in the life of mr god?

Yes it is, Psalm 90:4 and 2 Peter 3:8