The Return of Jesus Christ

sorry about the three post my computer was acting up.
prophetseeker:bnghd:

Originally posted by slymattb
And those that dont follow him, that will never know him, he says to hell with ya.

No way. That's not perfect love (which is His nature) and it also says that He created some of us in vain. Which is pointless and cruel. I just can't see that about God.

Why would He be a hidden God if there were some He'd never ever let see?

Originally posted by queenannie38
Why would He be a hidden God if there were some He'd never ever let see?

What do you mean a hidden God?

Remember God is also a God of justice. The wages of sin is death and the soul that sins, it shall die. Sin has to be atoned for.

Originally posted by queenannie38
Why would He be a hidden God if there were some He'd never ever let see?

What do you mean a hidden God?

Remember God is also a God of justice. The wages of sin is death and the soul that sins, it shall die. Sin has to be atoned for.

Originally posted by dbrandt

Originally posted by queenannie38
Why would He be a hidden God if there were some He'd never ever let see?

What do you mean a hidden God?

And I will give thee the treasures of darkness, and hidden riches of secret places, that thou mayest know that I, the LORD, which call thee by thy name, am the God of Israel.
Isaiah 45:3

Thou hast heard, see all this; and will not ye declare it? I have shewed thee new things from this time, even hidden things, and thou didst not know them.
Isaiah 48:6

Verily thou art a God that hidest thyself, O God of Israel, the Saviour.
Isaiah 45:15

Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known.
Matthew 10:26

At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.
Matthew 11:25

1 Corinthians, chapter 2

Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.
1 Corinthians 4:5

But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God. But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake. For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
2 Corinthians 4:2-6

Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:
Colossians 1:26-28

Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor? Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.
Romans 11:31-36

Remember God is also a God of justice. The wages of sin is death and the soul that sins, it shall die. Sin has to be atoned for.

Indeed. But we cannot do this, and in truth, it has already been done.

But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement. Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
Romans 5:8-15

And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
2 Corinthians 5:18-21


For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
Hebrews 9:26-28

Originally posted by queenannie38

Originally posted by slymattb
And those that dont follow him, that will never know him, he says to hell with ya.

No way. That's not perfect love (which is His nature) and it also says that He created some of us in vain. Which is pointless and cruel. I just can't see that about God.
Why would He be a hidden God if there were some He'd never ever let see?





Its not the fact that god is hidden, its just some people will never choose him. And god knows those that will never choose him. God will also not wast his time on those that will never come to him. A serial killer killed 100 of people until he died. Do you think God will forgive??? Only if the man will walk through the door that god put in front of him. God is not just described as a loveing God. God has great rath on those that creat sin and cases others to sin to.

Roman 1 v 18-20
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,because what may be known of God is manifest in them,for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world his invisible attributes are crearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead,so that theyare without excuse

john 3-3
Jesus answered and said to him,"most assuredly, i say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God

Matthew 25 v 41
Then he will aslso say to those on the left hand, depart from me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the deveil and HIS ANGELS.

slymattb/

You put down quotes but you haven't given an expalnation......being BORN again does not mean to be a ''Born again '' Christians...many born again Christians believe that it is they who are saved because they are born again Christian..this is false and misleading!

One must be BORN AGAIN......means to be babtised in water....for it was water that destroyed SIN in the Old testament through the flood.
Water again is used to wash away the sins.....old testament...eg pontius pilate washes his hands.....there are many referances refering to WATER and purification through it....Old Testament......see Genesis.
It was created on the first day (Genesis 1:2, 6-8).
Christ says to be born again .......babtism is like a DEATH, only when one comes out from the water(immersion into the babtisimal font 3 times..signifying the Father,Son and Holy Spirit )you are ready to do the will of God through the New Covenant....That is, Chrsitianity through the teachings of the Apostles whom Christ appointed ......at Pentacost when the Holy Spirit descended upon the Apostles...see Acts...eg came as fiery tongues of fire.

"and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ"

IX
helen

[edit on 8/11/2005 by helen670]


[edit on 8/12/2005 by helen670]

helen
The point that I was useing the scriptures was to say, not every is saved. That was a answer for what queen sayed

Queen Quote
Do I say 'no matter what?' The bible doesn't say that, and I'm just pointing out what it says when I say 'all will be saved

When in fact not everone will be saved. So I wrote sciptures to support that theory.

Slymattb I'm sorry ....misunderstanding on my part.

It's true that not everyone will be saved.......I know that Roman Catholics believe that all will be saved after Purgatory for one's sins......BUT there is no purgatory mentioned in the Bible whatsoever....This teaching came after the Great Schism of 1054(that's another issue).....with many other teachings that were not present in the early church.



IX
helen

Baptism is for the cleansing of the conscience:

The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
1 Peter 3:21

This is done in the present because:

Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Romans 6:4

So that we may pass from death to life:

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
John 5:24

We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
1 John 3:14

The assurance of which is given by the earnest of the indwelling Holy Spirit:

(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
John 7:39

That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
Ephesians 1:12-14

And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. Ephesians 4:30

The receiving of the Holy Spirit is the baptism of fire:

I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: Matthew 3:11

The disciples were the second ones to receive this:

And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
Acts 1:4-5

And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
Acts 2:1-4

But Jesus was the first--in order to extend it to us, first He received it, also by baptism:

I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled? But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished!
Luke 12:49-50

This fire is God's Spirit--which is a consuming fire:

For our God is a consuming fire.
Hebrews 12:29

And also is an unquenchable fire which will purge all the 'chaff':

Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire. Matthew 3:12

The 'chaff' is that which bears evil fruit--the works of the devil:

He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1 John 3:8

Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Matthew 7:17-20

The evil fruits of the devil are the works of the law which cannot justify any flesh nor give life:

Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. Galatians 2:16

These fruits are condemned to death, and sin is condemned in the flesh:

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Romans 8:1-4

So only those which are in Christ can produce good fruits--fruits of the Spirit. All other fruit is condemned and will be destroyed:

Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:4-6

Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God. For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. Romans 7:4-5

For all men will be judged on their fruits--both good and bad fruit receive their rightful reward:

For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
Matthew 16:27

This judgment is a trial--a fiery trial:

That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ: Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory: Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
1 Peter 1:7-9

Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:
1 Peter 4:12

This trial is the same trial which every soul will stand for judgment before the LORD. Some now, before the end of the age--those who believe in Christ now will suffer their fiery trial and be purged and refined before the day of the LORD. But the rest will stand for judgment in that last day:

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2 Peter 3:10

Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
1 Corinthians 3:13-15

NOW, looking again to Revelation--to the matter of the lake of fire--this is the very thing Peter and Paul are speaking of:

And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. Revelation 20:11-15

But these are the 'dead'--dead not in the way humans perceive, but dead in the eyes of God, i.e. not quickened by the Holy Spirit, yet.

And so, their works are their flesh, still alive to sin--since they have not died to sin by dying in Christ--for if they had already died to sin, they would have their names written in the Lamb's book of life. And the flesh is the works of the devil--the evil fruit, the chaff which needs to be purged. It is the works that are destroyed--the flesh and the sin--not the man, the soul, as Paul clearly states:

If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

And those who have passed from death to life before this time will have their works follow them--their flesh will also be destroyed--no flesh is justified and all flesh is sin--but this will not 'hurt them.' It won't be the same punishment as it will be for those who do not repent and come to the LORD before that day.

This is surely the punishment, the condemnation, the penalty for sin. And it is death, no doubt. And all of us must go through it, and Christ Himself received the first christening in this fire, He says so Himself. All things we must go through, He first endured Himself, in order to both set the perfect example and to to forge the path we must follow. These things are:

*Being born in the flesh, in sin.
*Being baptized with water to receive the promise of the holy Spirit.
*Withstanding temptation by the devil, who offers us a carnal kingdom.
*Suffering persecution and tribulation.
*Being baptized with the Holy Spirit to receive the promise of everlasting life (passing from death to life).
*Dying in the flesh.
*Rising in the Spirit with newness of life everlasting.
*Entering bodily the kingdom of the Father.

There might be some I missed, but I think these are the essentials. These are things that every soul will experience--all the way to the end of life everlasting.

So there is no separation from God for any soul--the true separation is the present situation for most of the world. But the goal is not to permanently sever us from Him--it is to reconcile us to Him--to restore that which fell, in the day Adam and Eve ate of the tree and died.

For by Adam all died--and through Christ all live.

The best thing for any one of us, is to receive the grace while it is still our choice, and be judged and justified before our flesh dies. It is less painful, and the punishment suffered in the world can be nothing compared to the punishment that will come from God for not believing the truth of the gospel now. The biggest benefit, to both God and man, in choosing reconciliation before the day of the LORD is that God will put to work all souls whom He quickens with His Spirit--for the purpose of sharing the witness of His grace and mercy, so others will believe more readily before that day comes. And those that believe because they believed these living witnesses--these are added as rewards--jewels in the crowns of the justified--who are, in turn, jewels in the crown of our King and Savior.

So--not only are the new-born in the Spirit justified of past sins and justified in future actions, escaping the wrath of judgment--on that day, when they stand before Him, they will receive a commendation--a true reward.

Nevertheless, all will be reconciled to Him.

The question is--do you want to have a good judgment day or a bad one?

Queen
IF your trying to say there is no judgement on the evil. you are wrong. Yes all will be resurcted. Even the evil will come back to life. But they will live again to be judged. They're will be those who go to hell for they're sin's. Not all will be saved

Revelations 21-8 ( But the cowardly, unbelieveing,abominable,murderers,sexually immoral,sorcerers,idolaters, and all liars shall have their part IN THE LAKE WHICH BURNS WIOTH FIRE AND BRIMSTONE, which is the second death.)

Revelations 14 v 9-11 ( Then a third angel followed them,saying with a loud voice," If anyone worships the beat and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, he himself shall alsoDRINK OF THE WINE OF THE WRATH OF GOD,which is poured out full strength into the cup of his indignation. HE SHALL BE TORMENTED WITH FIRE AND BRIMSTONE IN THE PRESENCE OF THE HOLY ANGELS AND IN THE PRESENCE OF THE LAMB. And smoke of theirtorment ascends forever and ever, AND THEY HAVE NO REST DAY OR NIGHT,who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.")

Matthew 25 v 46 ( And these will go away INTOEVERLASTING PUNISHMENT, but they the righeous into eternal life.)

Matthew 13 41-41 ( The son of man will send out his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, AND WILL CAST THEM INTO THE FURNACE OF FIRE. THERE WILL BE WAILING AND GNASHING OF TEETH.)

End the End we are both right to a point. But there will be a judgement and punishment for those who are evil in heart.

slymattb,
I would expect that the queue outside the pearly gates would then most certainly be extremely short. Heaven must be a pretty deserted place. I would guess that it could be possible, though still a long shot, that Mother Teresa never lied. She is the most saintly human I can think of. But, I'd be surprised to learn that she never told a single lie. There are circumstances where I feel that a lie is not necessarily an unethical act. To someone who is distraught, and is pleading desperately to be told that their dearest hope is not impossible, even if you are aware that it is surely not possible that it is true, hearing you say you support them, and believe them may be the right thing to do at the time. It is hard to argue that lying can ever be good, but I feel that sometimes the truth is just too much for them to hear at that critical moment. So, the residents of heaven, beyond the Father, Son, Holy Ghost, and the angels, imho, must be rare as hen's teeth. Hell, however, must have a difficult time staying ahead of the population explosion, and a chronic housing shortage would likely be one of the torments the liars (basically everyone), must endure.
I personally believe in an afterlife, and that souls may be eternal, but I do not at all believe in Heaven and Hell, other than their existence here on earth, as an apt description of each of our lives, the result of each of our own actions. It may be that bad choices, and evil acts make life hell on earth, while good decisions and actions make life heaven on earth. Or not.
I cannot say for sure since it appears to me that sometimes the most wonderful people endure horrific trials, while at the same time criminals seem to sometimes do profit from their crimes. An example, in my view, is the world class lifestyle that certain crime organization family members lead, so clearly shown on tv shows popular today.

Originally posted by slymattb
Queen
IF your trying to say there is no judgement on the evil. you are wrong. Yes all will be resurcted.

I'm not trying to say anything. Just pointing out some biblical truths, straight out of the bible, without my personal interpretation/wishes added. This is not my opinion. This is what the bible says.

But there will be a judgement and punishment for those who are evil in heart.

Which would include every single human being, if what it says in Genesis is true:

Genesis 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

I think you notice the fact, That I also did wright scriptures. To a point we are both wright. But scriptures say those that evil hearted will go to hell. Maybe you should read the scriptures I wrote again. Because if you still believe that all will be saved you are wrong.

Originally posted by slymattb
Revelations 21-8 ( But the cowardly, unbelieveing,abominable,murderers,sexually immoral,sorcerers,idolaters, and all liars shall have their part IN THE LAKE WHICH BURNS WIOTH FIRE AND BRIMSTONE, which is the second death.)

Right. What is the source of fire and brimstone, per the bible?

Every verse which mentions brimstone, except Revelation:
Genesis 19:24
Deuteronomy 29:23
Job 18:15
Psalms 11:6
Isaiah 30:33
Isaiah 34:9
Ezekiel 38:22
Luke 17:29

In Revelation 9:17, 9:18, 14:10, 19:20, 20:10, 21:8 mention brimstone.

Revelations 14 v 9-11 ( Then a third angel followed them,saying with a loud voice," If anyone worships the beat and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, he himself shall alsoDRINK OF THE WINE OF THE WRATH OF GOD,which is poured out full strength into the cup of his indignation. HE SHALL BE TORMENTED WITH FIRE AND BRIMSTONE IN THE PRESENCE OF THE HOLY ANGELS AND IN THE PRESENCE OF THE LAMB. And smoke of theirtorment ascends forever and ever, AND THEY HAVE NO REST DAY OR NIGHT,who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.")

Matthew 25 v 46 ( And these will go away INTOEVERLASTING PUNISHMENT, but they the righeous into eternal life.)

The problem with this verse, and many others that say 'everlasting' is a translational problem. There is a word in greek, aion, which means the same as a hebrew word, olam. Both of these words do not define a specific limited time period, but at the same time, neither of them, properly translated mean 'forever' or 'eternal.' The best way to understand them is simply as an 'age'--a continued unspecified time frame, also 'perpetual' or 'enduring' gives some sort of the meaning. The only true cross translation of both these words into english is 'age.' 'Forever and ever' is actually written in the greek as 'aion into aion' or 'aion of aion'.
There is one word in the NT Greek, which means, truly 'forever'; it is from the same root that aion comes from, it is aidios and is properly defined as: everduring (forward and backward, or foward only): - eternal, everlasting.

One verse we find that word in is

And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. Jude 1:6

The only other verse that word is in is:

For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Romans 1:20

Another thing is in regard to 'smoke of their torment.' This is assumed to be the smoke of the eternal torturous burning. But we have a reference right within Revelation as to what the nature of this smoke really is:

And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.
Revelation 8:4

And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.
Revelation 15:8

Smoke is not always gassy exhumes from incineration.

And mount Sinai was altogether on a smoke, because the LORD descended upon it in fire: and the smoke thereof ascended as the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mount quaked greatly. Exodus 19:18

The NT word translated smoke is very vague, but we can be sure it is in the same sense of the word used in the OT, which is 'dust, vapor, and anger'.

Now, none of those things I wrote in order to say anything one way or another, only in hopes that you'll reexamine scriptures with a mind more open to 'not knowing what smoke and fire are' rather than a preset decision that 'smoke and fire=hell=punishment forever.'

If you consider that the word 'forever', in its proper translation, isn't used in relation to punishments, but that the idea of 'age' and 'age into age' is more fitting a definition, you can see that it is an assumption not proved in scripture that punishments will go on indefinitely. For a punishment to have no terminal point negates it as actually being a punishment. A punishment is something that will have an affect, somehow--and if there is no time afterward for that effect to make manifest, then the punishment is something else. Death is capital punishment, and even it has a termination point--death itself. So the idea of there being a neverending punishment that employs conscious awareness of it's endurance doesn't make sense, on any level. Either it's punishment or execution. And eternal hellfire torment doesn't meet the criteria of either.

Matthew 13 41-41 ( The son of man will send out his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, AND WILL CAST THEM INTO THE FURNACE OF FIRE. THERE WILL BE WAILING AND GNASHING OF TEETH.)

Furnace of fire.
We've established that only God is fire. He has different purposes with His distribution of fire, nonetheless OUR GOD IS A CONSUMING FIRE.
That furnace of fire is for refining, and for purging the chaff. But, I've quoted Paul numerous times--he said our works will burn, but the man himself will be saved, even as by fire.

Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. 1 Corinthians 3:13-15

End the End we are both right to a point. But there will be a judgement and punishment for those who are evil in heart.

I agree there will be a judgment and punishment for the evil in heart--and per Genesis, all men (who do not have a new heart given by God) have inherently wicked hearts.

That's not where we are differing. Take your study a step or two deeper into this--and you'll see some things not surfacely apparent (but true and real, nonetheless.)

Do word studies on:
fire
furnace
trial/try
refine
purge
baptism by holy spirit
judgment

Lol queen I understand God has a forgiveing nature. But God has put us on earth for free will choice to choose him. Thats why he created his son to help those who will believe. But still not all will be saved. What do you think will happen to The devil and his angels, they wont go to heaven.

matthew 24 v 48 - 51 But suppose that servant is wicked and says to him self, " My master is staying away a long time," And he then begins to beat his follow servants and to eat and drink with drunkards. The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. HE WILL CUT HIM TO PIECES AND ASSIGN HIM A PLACEWITH HPOCRITES, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. ( there is a place for evil, that God send them to)

Matthew 25 1- 13 The Parabe of the Ten Virgins please read it. It shows even that some who believe did not have enough oil(faith and works) to go to heaven.

Most important read matthew 25 v 31-46 The Sheep and the Goats
Jesus tell the sheep they are saved and why, he tell the goats they are not saved.

v 41 Then he will say to those on his left, "Depart from me, you who are cursed, INTO THE ETERNAL FIRE preared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungery and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.

V 46 THEN THEY WILL GO AWAY TO ETERNAL PUNISHMENT, but the righteous to eternal life.

There is judgement for the wicked and a place they go to. The punishment is fire and eternal.

Revelations 20 v 7-10 Satan's Doom When the thousand years are over, Satan will be RELEASED FROM HIS PRISON, and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth- Gog and Magog- to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God's people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them.

(imortant)And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into THE LAKE OF BURNING SULFUR, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. (important) THEY WILL BE TORMENTED DAY AND NIGHT FOR EVER AND EVER.

Revelation 11-15 The Dead are judge Queen you should read the hole chapter it might help you, but if its too big here a small v

v14-15 The lake of fire is the SEOND DEATH. IF ANYONE'S NAME WAS NOT FOUND WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF LIFE, HE WAS THROWN INTO THE LAKEOF FIRE. ( anybody who name is not found in the book of life is thrown into the SECOND DEATH, they're thrown into the eternal punishment. all who are there is evil hearted, and will never see heaven and never have salvation.

Originally posted by slymattb
Lol queen I understand God has a forgiveing nature. But God has put us on earth for free will choice to choose him. Thats why he created his son to help those who will believe. But still not all will be saved. What do you think will happen to The devil and his angels, they wont go to heaven.

Think about that--the devil and his angels. They serve as an example for man.

V 46 THEN THEY WILL GO AWAY TO ETERNAL PUNISHMENT, but the righteous to eternal life.

Eternal is an incorrect translation of aion.

There is judgement for the wicked and a place they go to. The punishment is fire and eternal.

Two kinds of punishment--capital and that intended to rehabilitate. In Revelation the 12 trees' fruit is for the healing of the nations. That is rehabilitation--healing.

(imortant)And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into THE LAKE OF BURNING SULFUR, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. (important) THEY WILL BE TORMENTED DAY AND NIGHT FOR EVER AND EVER.

The devil, beast, and false prophet are not human souls!

Revelation 11-15 The Dead are judge

The dead are those who are not quickened by the Holy Spirit. Most of what we call the 'living' population of the world are 'dead.'

Queen you should read the hole chapter it might help you, but if its too big here a small v

slymattb--don't be offended at what I say--but I read the bible every day, as much as I have time for. I have a lot of time to read. I read the entire book of Revelation at least once a week, and have done so for a long time. I'm not one to just read a verse here or there and attach it to my opinion and then declare truth. I have put in long hours of serious study, and don't plan on stopping that practice at any time in my earthly life.

v14-15 The lake of fire is the SEOND DEATH. IF ANYONE'S NAME WAS NOT FOUND WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF LIFE, HE WAS THROWN INTO THE LAKEOF FIRE. ( anybody who name is not found in the book of life is thrown into the SECOND DEATH, they're thrown into the eternal punishment. all who are there is evil hearted, and will never see heaven and never have salvation.

That last part, after 'second death'--is it in the bible, too--or did you add it on?

I am not offended, maybe a little annoyed at the fact that you say there is no hell, when if fact all over the ZBible there is proof of judgement and of hell.

Think about that--the devil and his angels. They serve as an example for man.

But how does this stop the fact that the devil and his angels will go to hell and eternal punishment.

Eternal is an incorrect translation of aion.

I dont just read one type of bible, greek says eternal too. but if it was incorrect translation show some proof please( not to be rude)

Two kinds of punishment--capital and that intended to rehabilitate. In Revelation the 12 trees' fruit is for the healing of the nations. That is rehabilitation--healing.

Does not stop that Jesus our king said people will go to hell. Does not stop the fact that revelation 20 v 15 Says (IF ANYONE'S NAME WAS NOT FOUND WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF LIFE, HE WAS THROWN INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE.
No where did God say in the Bible that those who are punish will have rehabilitation. Thats your words.

The devil, beast, and false prophet are not human souls!

Of course not they're of the devil's soul. Evil spirits that will be punish and will have judgement and will be thrown in the lake of fire.

The dead are those who are not quickened by the Holy Spirit. Most of what we call the 'living' population of the world are 'dead.'

you said it almost on your own, the dead do not have the holy spirit, if you do not have a spirit, or your name if not in the book of life. you will be judge to hell.

slymattb--don't be offended at what I say--but I read the bible every day, as much as I have time for. I have a lot of time to read. I read the entire book of Revelation at least once a week, and have done so for a long time. I'm not one to just read a verse here or there and attach it to my opinion and then declare truth. I have put in long hours of serious study, and don't plan on stopping that practice at any time in my earthly life.

Like I said I am not offended, and if this is true you should know there is punishiment for the evil hearted. You should know that the dead will be dead and punish for their sins.

That last part, after 'second death'--is it in the bible, too--or did you add it on?

the seond death is in the bible its in the kjv revelations chapter 20 v 14 and death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. THIS IS THE SECOND DEATH.

The second death is in the bible, lake of fire is eternal punishment. take it the way you want.



[edit on 20-8-2005 by slymattb]

I'm obviously not able to convey what I need to--but here is an excellent, albeit lengthy, web page that perhaps does a better job than I. I read it all myself, so that I know for sure what I'm linking to. I hope you take the time to read it.