Support the Troops, But not the War?

For those that say they support the troops but not the war, does this phrase hold the same meaning for you as it always has? I ask because there came a time when I realized that, especially with those who are enlisting today, they know they’ll probably be going to Iraq or even other Middle-Eastern countries in the near future to fight in an immoral and illegal war that was started based on lies.

Can you still feel support and encouragement for the people who are joining the military to go fight this war you say you don’t support?

I used to have a great deal of respect for the people in the military. I felt they were honorable and courageous. Remember honorable? But recently, in the past 6 months or so, as I’ve witnessed the behavior of our military personnel and seen more people joining to fight this war, I am faced with a dilemma. As much as I want to, I don’t have the respect I once had for the troops, especially the ones joining, knowing where they’ll end up.

I know this opinion is going to be unpopular, but how do you separate the troops from the war when the troops are joining to fight in the war and the military is not measuring up to its own standards of decency and respectability?

I know there are many individual soldiers who do behave in an honorable manner and deserve the respect of the civilians. I also know that there are many in the military who were in there before the war in Iraq. But the line between war and troops has always been so clear to me before, and these days, it’s might fuzzy…

Your thoughts?

Just FYI, I have family in Iraq.


[edit on 25-7-2005 by Benevolent Heretic]

My thoughts?

At least you are honest. I have an idea. Move to another country. Fight your family. Join the other side that you care for so dearly.

I feel encouragement for our troops. To those of you out there who may have been soldiers at any time in your life. I am in great debt to your service. Thank you.

Heritic. I support the war effort as well. I am glad we are there. The only thing I am disheartened about at all is our military suffering. You speak of the "behavior" of our military. Yet I know you have seen those videos where our soldiers were beheaded while still alive on TV for everyone to see. Where our soldiers were drug through streets and hung from bridges.

This type of attitude is disgusting. The REALITY of the situation is that terrorists have been around a lot longer than this war. They have been killing people for decades. These people teach their children to kill christians (please note I am not a christian) and americans because of our way of life. They believe it is their duty to kill you and I so they can enter that heaven of theirs. Someday, maybe within the next few years, this war will be "over". Our troops will be pulled. Do you think that will be the end of the attacks? Do you think they will just stop?

[edit on 25-7-2005 by Sight2reality]

Originally posted by Sight2reality
Yet I know you have seen those videos where our soldiers were beheaded while still alive on TV for everyone to see. Where our soldiers were drug through streets and hung from bridges.

Yes, I have seen those, and I agree they are horrifying. However, that does not, in my mind, justify stooping to the level of torture and other atrocities I have read about and witnessed. How can unbecoming conduct have any positive effect on any aspect of this situation we find ourselves in? It only puts a terrrible stain on the military, a once proud and respectful American Institution.

The argument of 'they did it first' just doesn't go over well with this American.

Someday, maybe within the next few years, this war will be "over". Our troops will be pulled.

I'm not a praying person, but I pray you are right.

Do you think that will be the end of the attacks? Do you think they will just stop?

No. Of couse not. The end of this war will contribute no more than the war itself in making the attacks stop. But that discussion is for another thread.

Give me one example that equates to the live broadcasting of a beheading. One instance specifically where our troops have tortured an enemy prisoner. One instance SPECIFICALLY. What have we done that equates to that? SPECIFICALLY. Do you know Ted Kennedy or something?

What behavior have you personally witnessed that you would use as an excuse to toss out the whole lot? Hmmmm? Maybe, see a couple of drunken GI's park in a handicapped space? Ok, whatever, one excuse is as good as the next.

By the way, I was a soldier, so this isn't someone speaking from the outside looking in. Soldiers are no different than anyone else in regard to doing stupid stuff and acting the fool. It's just that they've put themselves in a position where they might die so that the rest of us can continue to be stupid and act the fool.

[edit on 25-7-2005 by Thomas Crowne]

Best wishes to your family, Heretic.

It's definitely a dicey situation, that whole Support the Troops thing. Obviously there are a lot of nimrods in the military, just as there are outside of it. There are also a lot of well-wishing people in the military. Supporting the troops in general doesn't have to mean that you support what they are doing (killing, for example), but it's basically just supporting your countrymen / women who are in another land with hot metal flying past their heads at high speeds. Most people that have joined the military in the last few years didn't necessarily join with the desire to take a vacation in Iraq.

I'd like to direct you to an interesting article written by a vet to current and prospective soldiers:

www.counterpunch.org...

While not directly on topic, it is certainly related.

[edit on 25-7-2005 by Lartsa Cleargleam]

Excellent article, LC. Thanks. And also an excellent point:

supporting your countrymen / women who are in another land with hot metal flying past their heads at high speeds.

I can definitely get behind that.

Sight2reality, I hope to never have an example that 'equates' to some of the hideous acts of terrorism you're speaking about. Is this the "At least we're not as bad as them" argument? That one doesn't flush with me either.

Thomas Crowne, I'm not talking about soldiers 'doing stupid stuff and acting the fool'! My God! I'm talking about torture. I'm talking about electrodes and excrement. I'm talking about sexual humiliation, assault and other disgraceful acts that we've only heard about so far. If this is your idea of 'doing stupid stuff and acting the fool', I guess we'll just have to disagree on this one.

I support the troops. No matter what country they are from, or what race they are.
This is a story i posted a while back when my son got back from Iraq.
This story shows how much respect I have for the troops........

Here is the story........................

There is one story he had to tell me. I deliberated on weather or not to post, but decided i needed to share this.

For obvious reasons I'm not going to reveal where he was when the following took place.

His squadron was based just outside a small village near to where most of the trouble was happening. After a few weeks, they began to get know the local kids, who were always around asking for water.
They used to give the kids the water and tried to make conversation with them. They taught them English to an extent, enough to be able to be understood, names etc.
My son was quiet taken with a 9 year old girl who , according to him seemed to be the odd one out among the other children. He used to give her chocolate bars from his ration packs and the boiled sweets that they get.
This went on for weeks, until he handed over some chocolate to the girl in the street. Some elders or maybe part of her family were sitting in the background watching this happen. Nothing was said, just a waved hand and a smile.

He never saw this girl again until 3 weeks later. She was hanging from a tree. She had been hung because she had taken "gifts" from a westerner. The girls family were distraught. They didn't blame my son, but they thanked my him for taking the time to help her and to make her happy.


My son phoned me in tears when he found out what had happened. He still feels like he was to blame for some part in this. Maybe if he hadn't given her things ,then she might still be alive?This is what he thought.
I told him to take comfort in what he did for the unfortunate girl, and look back at how it made her smile and brought a small piece of happiness into her life.
He will live with that memory for ever.

I apologize if this has upset anyone, but it made upset me when he was telling me about it. Hell, i even got choked up writing this.

There is a lot to this War that we will never get to know.

Cheers Eddie

There will always be people who knock the troops. Put your self in the same position. How would you have dealt with that?
Unbelievable eh?


[edit on 25-7-2005 by Bikereddie]

The anti-war people who today chant the cliche' of Support the troops, but not the war are like the same anti-war people who chanted End the war in Vietnam.

There was no supporting the troops in Vietnam. They came home after the war to disgrace and being spit on. Over the years, the anti-war folks realized that they had every right to condemn and protest the Vietnam War, but were wrong in how they treated the troops during and after said war. This war against Iraq has thus produced the gimmick line of Support the troops, but not the war, how ironic, huh? Makes one feel all chilly willy as the goosebumps sprout up over the body, don't it?

Amazing how small isolated incidents [like "torture"] can cause one to doubt the troops and such. Interesting how some can take such a few isolated cases and simply apply it to each and every person serving in the military, eh? Personally, good, cause if I was in Iraq today, I certainly would not want your support while your condemning why I am over there is the first place. Bet.

Some of you remind me of those US senators that claim they support the troops but condemn the war [thought they backed it initially]. The same senators that condemned thse allegations of Nazi style actions that were taking place at Gitmo. I found it quite humorous that when some of those senators got a chance to finally visit Gitmo, that when given the opportunity for the troops there to talk with them, that they were set-straight on what they had said, etc.

Soldiers from Massachusetts and Hawaii who work at the U.S. military detention facility at U.S. Naval Base Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, gave visiting home-state senators a piece of their mind last week.

Sens. Edward M. Kennedy, Massachusetts Democrat, and Daniel K. Akaka, Hawaii Democrat, met with several soldiers during a visit led by Armed Services Committee Chairman Sen. John W. Warner, Virginia Republican.

Pentagon officials said soldiers criticized the harsh comments made recently by Senate Democrats.

Sen. Richard J. Durbin of Illinois, the Senate's No. 2 Democrat, last month invoked widespread military outrage when he compared Guantanamo to the prison labor systems used by communist tyrant Josef Stalin, Cambodia's Pol Pot and Adolf Hitler.

"They got stiff reactions from those home-state soldiers," one official told us. "The troops down there expressed their disdain for that kind of commentary, especially comparisons to the gulag."

A spokesman for Mr. Kennedy had no comment. A spokeswoman for Mr. Akaka confirmed that the senator met with soldiers from Hawaii but did not recall receiving any complaints during the meeting.

Both senators made no mention of the incident in press statements after the visit. Mr. Kennedy, in his statement, said that he is "impressed with the courtesies and professionalism of the men and women in our armed forces."

Mr. Kennedy has been a leading advocate for closing the prison facility. Mr. Akaka in April voted for an amendment that would have cut funds for the prison.

GIs criticize


Interesting that this was not big news on the major news channels or cable news networks, huh? Probably cause it did not have the headlines of "Bush criticized by troops,"or some such. The media was against the Vietnam War, just as they are not behind this war. Though, they too are utilizing the same anti-war gimmick line: Support the troops, but not the war....





seekerof

[edit on 25-7-2005 by Seekerof]

I was in Iraq at the beginning of the invasion, but still didn't support the war.
What? I didn't support myself?
Trust me. There are a lot of soldiers over there who know Iraq was a big mistake, that turned into a bigger mess. They need voices in the states. People who will speak out for them, since they can't do it themselves. Support the troops, hold the Bush administration accountable, and make sure they support our troops!

Bikereddie, thank you for your willingness to share that sad story. How terrible for your son. I am truly sorry. That must have been awful for him!

Seekerof, I sometimes wonder exactly what it is you seek... You talk as if you already know the minds and hearts of everyone else. In fact, you talk as if you know just about everything. What could you possibly be seeking? You could never impart wisdom or insight to me because your words are dripping with resentment and sarcasm. Your message escapes me because all I can hear is the anger.

I have posted an honest post asking for input. I don't like how I feel and I want to return to feeling support for the troops.

curme, thank you for your insight. It makes perfect sense.

[edit on 25-7-2005 by Benevolent Heretic]

I have never understood the concept of "supporting the troops" while being against the war. Of course the reason I feel that way is that I believe it is wrong to give up your free will. When a person joins the military they give up their free will and that is something a person has no right to do. It is simply immoral to let others tell one what to do, hence these soldiers have no moral legs to stand on. Soldiers exist for 2 reasons and 2 reasons only, to kill and to die, and I don't understand how anyone can support that.

Thats a tough story to read bikereddie. I hope your son can find peace after an experience like that. He will always be in my thoughts now.

Originally posted by Vasilis Azoth
Soldiers exist for 2 reasons and 2 reasons only, to kill and to die, and I don't understand how anyone can support that.

ill give u a reason, the soldiers who fought and die in the past may have saved my ass before i was even born. Nazis could kill me because im not Aryan race in their view. i probably be wiped out be the Japs. i may be singing praise for Stalin under communism rule. there are other events that the American soldiers helped prevent that could have consumed us. who knows, maybe u learn how to eat and speak like the Japanese, if they let u live.

Originally posted by Vasilis Azoth
I have never understood the concept of "supporting the troops" while being against the war. Of course the reason I feel that way is that I believe it is wrong to give up your free will. When a person joins the military they give up their free will and that is something a person has no right to do. It is simply immoral to let others tell one what to do, hence these soldiers have no moral legs to stand on. Soldiers exist for 2 reasons and 2 reasons only, to kill and to die, and I don't understand how anyone can support that.

That's an interesting point of view and you certainly have a right to it. I would have to say that while you may feel that it is wrong to give up your free will, I think it is the perrogative of others to give up theirs if they wish. It belongs to them, not you. I'm not a big fan of one's person's morals being applied to all people as you've done here.

A third reason for someone to be a soldier is to fight for the freedoms of one's fellow man. A fourth reason is to protect the security of their countrymen. I think perhaps you're not seeing the whole picture. There are many reasons to become a soldier and each individual has the right to decide that for him or herself.

It's the same old story, America is always evil, period. All of the troops are a disgrace to this country, why should they fight when they could be here with me screaming anti-government hate? IT's BS. every last ounce of it is BS. while liberal americans supposedly care so much about these people in the middle east, they hate you and want what you have. So to all you people who are in love with our enemy, i would like you to denounce your citizenship, Give all of your belongings to the iraqis people, give all your assets to them, and apologize to them for not doing enough to stop the war. Then become an iraqis and live over there. but i know you wont because you are all hypocrites whose only real fuss is not having that idiot kerry in office isnt it? you dont like bush boo whoo, no one cares! shut up, you will have precious hillary in a couple of years anyway. Im so sick of hearing abu ghraib when these people decapitate people and put it on the internet, but hey!, thats ok because they dont know any better right? but some people, who got totrtured and none of these resullted in death. BIG DEAL!

[edit on 25-7-2005 by XphilesPhan]

I think that you shouldnt put the blame of the actions of a few on every single one of our troops...kinda like another country saying that all americans are stupid. personally i think that our troops are fighting for our gov. and not our country. What was this war about again? freeing the Iraqi people?...YAH RIGHT! were so great...they should be thankful for what we have given them. I feel sorry for both the Iraqi people and our troops. Most of us just want to live our lives...am i wrong? Just like the Iraqi people...there names have been misrepresented because of some A- hole cutting peoples heads off! And our names have been misrepresented because some A-holes were putting cigarettes out on people.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

That's an interesting point of view and you certainly have a right to it. I would have to say that while you may feel that it is wrong to give up your free will, I think it is the perrogative of others to give up theirs if they wish. It belongs to them, not you. I'm not a big fan of one's person's morals being applied to all people as you've done here.


I'm sorry Heretic, your free will is yours, it's always yours and if you give it up you are still responsible for what you have done, because in the end you really didn't have the right to let someone else tell you what to do.

sorry i screwed up that last post, the first paragraph was suppose to be quoted from Heretic. I'm still getting use to this system.

Originally posted by Vasilis Azoth

I'm sorry Heretic, your free will is yours, it's always yours and if you give it up you are still responsible for what you have done, because in the end you really didn't have the right to let someone else tell you what to do.

I think I see what you're saying. If I give my free will away, I'm still responsible for what I do? I agree.

I still have trouble with your opinion that I don't have the 'right' to let someone else tell me what to do, but I'm ok disagreeing on that.

Vampcrow, you've made a good point. I did say in my original post that I know there are a lot of good and respectable people in the military. I especially like the way you've related it to the way many Americans feel about Iraqi people (or all Arabs, or all Muslims) for the actions of a few. Thank you.

Oh, and this war was about WMDs before it was about freeing the Iraqi people. I know it's confusing...