The Book of Mormon

I don't know if anyone other than me has read this book on this forum, but it gives the accont of 2 lost civilizations that might interest you guys. The first was the jeradites (in the book of ether in the book of mormon). The jaradites destoried themselves internally. The nephites, (The rest of the book) were destroyed by the lamanites (native americans today). www.mormon.com might have more information, but www.lds.org has the complete book of mormon in html format.

rick

Well Blackknight,

This would only be relevant if you really BELIEVE that Joseph Smith actually truley found the golden plates, and that he translated them by putting rocks in a hat. OK yes I know they were supposedly 'majic' stones called the thumin and the umin........but you HAVE to believe all that in order to believe the book of Mormon is factual........so its not considered PROVEN science.

And this post is being made by someone who is currantly counted as a member of the Mormon Church. I am not practicing however, I have to many questions and doubts, and call myself a Pagan. I live in Utah though and Mormon Pioneer blood runs through my veins.

Originally posted by theRiverGoddess
I live in Utah though and Mormon Pioneer blood runs through my veins.

Happy Pioneer Day TRG, I'm glad to get a free day off while incarcerated here in Utah.

Thanks MM! I hope you have a fun day to!
...........I have a tutor coming in the afternoon so there is NO break for us math studants till after 2 pm.

If ya get really board I can ivite you to come on over and mow the lawn for me!
well heck its to long..............

WOOOO HOOOO 3 cheers for lawn mowing!!!

Only untilI saw that episode of South Park, did I know what a Mormans really believe. I thought is was ridiculus that people believe Joseph Smith actually found the golden plates, little own translate them. The plates will never being verified by a third party because they no longer exist.

I think its interesting to note how Smith died which might give some insight to his personality:

Jesus Christ himself figures in the 500-page text, which so enraged the local Christians that Smith and his followers were forced to flee to Ohio, Missouri, and finally to Illinois, where Smith began a campaign to become president of the United States. In 1844, after Smith and his brother destroyed the presses of a newspaper that had opposed Smith's candidacy, they were lynched by a mob.

Source

[edit on 24-7-2005 by Charlie Murphy]

Originally posted by Charlie Murphy
Only untilI saw that episode of South Park, did I know what a Mormans really believe. I thought is was ridiculus that people believe Joseph Smith actually found the golden plates, little own translate them. The plates will never being verified by a third party because they no longer exist.

Ahhhh! You beat me too it. I thought south park was just making fun of them, not actually telling what they believed in. But that episode is very convincing in telling that it is all fake. (wow south park actually proved something for once)



[edit on 24-7-2005 by puppet]

The Mormons have poured a lot of money into archaeological expeditions (for which every archaeologist in America is grateful), hoping to prove ANY part of their religious texts is true. Alas, everything found to date simply disproves the information in the Book of Mormon.

Great stories in there, though. Really. But not reliable historical or cultural information. Take it as allegory, okay?

www.2think.org...

A kinder review of Mormon archaeology is here:
www.answers.com...;jsessionid=7ooj5oun1sr9m?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=Archaeology+and+the+Book+of+Mormon&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1&sbid=lc03 a&linktext=Mormon%20archaeology

(but they gloss over a lot of the problems with identifying any of the Mormon "nations" mentioned with the civilizations of the ancient Americas.)

The mormons are a perfect example of why religions are all fabrications, and how people are willing to believe them because its easier than seeing reality and challenging themselves to grow and learn.

[edit on 25-7-2005 by Davood]

I saw the South Park episode thank to a member from this site, they sent it to me......... It said NOTHING that wasnt true about the beliefs of the LDS religion. Sure it was done in a rather funny way but they did not seem to be making fun of them really.....but it was a VERY GOOD education for people who dont know much about the LDS Church. It was all TRUE.

So the whole deal with the guy trying to prove he was a fraud then getting fooled AGAIN in teh same eexact way was real?

Originally posted by Davood
The mormons are a perfect example of why religions are all fabrications, and how people are willing to believe them because its easier than seeing reality and challenging themselves to grow and learn.

It's ridiculous to compare the lack of archaeological evidence of LDS history to the history of other religions. I think IMHO it's quite obvious that Mormonism was simply the figment of one man's imagination.

The archaeology of the Bible proper however is quite clear. Place like Jerusalem, Bethlehem, Rome, Egypt, Babylon certainly exist, and other Biblical places such as Sodom and Gomorrah which were once thought to be fictional by some scientists, have later proven to be real!


[edit on 7/25/2005 by djohnsto77]

Biblical archaeology is more wrong than right actually. Sure enough, places like Jerusalem and Jerhico, etc, are real, but thats not much of an acheivement. As far as sodom and gomarah, the case isn't solid for them. All thats had is a city in a crappy region. Doesn't amount to much.

Originally posted by djohnsto77

Originally posted by Davood
The mormons are a perfect example of why religions are all fabrications, and how people are willing to believe them because its easier than seeing reality and challenging themselves to grow and learn.

It's ridiculous to compare the lack of archaeological evidence of LDS history to the history of other religions. I think IMHO it's quite obvious that Mormonism was simply the figment of one man's imagination.

The archaeology of the Bible proper however is quite clear. Place like Jerusalem, Bethlehem, Rome, Egypt, Babylon certainly exist, and other Biblical places such as Sodom and Gomorrah which were once thought to be fictional by some scientists, have later proven to be real!


[edit on 7/25/2005 by djohnsto77]

Jacksonville, Missouri exists.

And mormonism is a fairly "new" concept, thats why we think its fake....

who was the guy that said, todays hoaxes will be tommorrows truths?

who was the guy that said today's hoaxes are tomorrow's truths?

I think it was Prophet Yaweh

(Yes, once again, the silly Dragon has pounced on another mormon thread)

First of all, a link to the complete text: Book of Mormon. It's about 500 pages; it's hard to tell in that silly html format they used. If you want a free hard copy (and don't mind giving out personal info on the web) go here.

As to the mormon archaeology, there are quite a few mormon archaeologists, but the field is still relatively new, certainly compared to work in looking for Catholic, Muslim, Buddhist, or other historical sites. Considering the age of those other religions compared to Mormonism, they had a centuries long head start in searching. There's still a lot of uncovered ground to go over, especially since we aren't really sure where to start looking. If/when we actually find a Mormon city, then some real work can begin, since then we can search the neighbouring area for more. Finding that starting point is the hardest part.

Nothing has ever been found that can conclusively prove the authenticity of the book of mormon, but there are some interesting finds that I would call strong evidence, but are definitely not proof.

Jeff Lindsay, who I have linked to numerous times, because his research on this issue is excellent (unlike many other people on both side of the issue, who usually work with preconceived conclusions; i.e. Mormonism is true/false, and little things like facts won't change their opinions), has compiled a bunch of evidences in the following links.

www.jefflindsay.com...
www.jefflindsay.com...

Examples of evidences: (from the first few paragraphs of the first link)
-metal plates: in 1830, no gold plate written records had ever been found, but have been subsequently found by archaeologists. (obviously, the Gold Plates haven't been found, since according to the Mormon belief, they were taken back to heaven by Moroni; just similar ones have been)
-Nahom: an area in the Arabian Peninsula exists that fits the description of Nephi's journeys there, and it had the same name, Nahom (NHM in hebrew) as in the book of mormon. (Joseph Smith never travelled outside the US, except for a brief visit to Canada)
-cement: the book of Helaman mentions using cement, a laughable concept in 1830 for ancient North Americans. Ancient cement structures have since been found.
-Alma: the name Alma in the book of mormon. People thought it was a ripoff of the latin word, but it has since been verified as a legitimate ancient hebrew name
-chiasmus: this pattern of writing occurs in both the bible and book of mormon, and was unnoticed by scholars in 1830.

There are also some things found in the book of Mormon that appear to completely defy what we currently know about North American archaeology. (Of course, the above evidences also used to do the same!) The book mentions things like elephants, various crops, steel, swords, coinage & cows, none of which have been found in North America.

I think the best thing to do with the book of mormon is simply to read it. At best, you might be convinced that it's the real deal. At worst, you will get an interesting tale of the rise&fall of civilization, with wars, politics, and the whole bit, and you will have an understanding of a religion that played a significant role in American history, and continues to play a role in the world today, particularly North America.

I read parts of the Koran for similar reasons; I wanted to get a better understanding of the Muslim people. I don't have a conclusive opinion one way or the other on whether that book is true or not, but I do have a better understanding of Muslims.

(one last note: I don't watch Southpark, so haven't seen that episode, but I'd be very cautious of anything that show tries to pass off as fact, on any subject. Maybe I'll have to look for that episode and see what it has to say)

Hah thanks, I am going to read that and annoy my friends with stories from it.

reply to post by Byrd


I was an active mormon, but now I stay away from it because the foundation of the church's teachings seems to be totally false. But many active members really believe it to be true (such as the characters actually existed (Alma, Nephi, Lehi etc.) It is kind of of heartbreaking for many LDS that find out the origins, through reading books such as Grant Palmer's Book of Mormon Origins, books about Thomas Ferguson (LDS archeologist that found out there was no artifacts in the BOM lands etc. Not saying Jesus is not who he claimed to be, but saying the LDS interpretation of Jesus, just can't be true based on Joseph's Smith teachings. I can write alot on this, but just want to say. It is easy to get caught up in Joseph Smith's hype if you don't study the roots.

It is AMAZING how the church hides the realities, and pushes the fantasies. There is the song in the Church that says "Choose the right let the consequence follow. The leaders of the church need to take that song to heart. Choose the right about Hebrew DNA in america from ancient Jerusalem, book of mormon artifacts, king james version bible verses in the BOM. 19th century view, Books of Joseph's time period, View of the Hebrews and how close it is to the BOM.

Pre existence is something I am interested in and I struggle with it, but even that seems to be had in a book that is not LDS called Cosmic Cradle.

I just don't understand when there is so much TRUTH out there showing that the BOM is not what it is supposed to be and the Book of Abraham is not what it is supposed to be. Why can't so many college educated leaders not read about the roots. There was a leader that did, but it seems like it wasn't taken seriously. His name was B.H. Roberts! Some LDS think he was playing devil's advocate. But why should trying to find truth be bad? Even early mormon pioneer leaders thought it important to be corrected if untrue such as Orson Pratt. But his statements seem to be slipped from under the rug, of course they were bold then before DNA started to come out, and artififacts started showing up more and more in bible lands and none in bom lands.

reply to post by thetiler

And great morning was heard throughout the land of egypt for joseph their deliverer of old ,, died at 120,, had passed away and Josehp was treated as an Egyptian of Royalty,, who had the SEAL of Pharo..,,,etc,,,
And so the KINGSHIP of jacob's blessing by the angel, fell to moses, HIS son.

Of course by this time Moses was 60 years of AGE,, and well we all know what happened then,,

Oh the year was 1589 B.C

reply to post by blackknight5k


I can't believe a guy who just pops up and claims all this with no proof what so ever.

He is the L.Ron Hubbard of his day.

reply to post by BobAthome


I am not a real scholar of the bible, but i realize that there can indeed be some serous errors in the bible.

But one thing I am sure of is that archeologists are doing excavations in bible lands and coming up with tons of artifacts of so many varied types.

But literally nothing can be proven in book of mormon lands.

The bible really deserves credit were credit is due. Again, not saying there are no errors for sure.

I mean the Smithonian, National Geographic Society have used bible records to verify some truths. I am sure they stay away from some things as well. But as a former mormon, it is such an important point, I can't stress this enough.