Originally posted by Off_The_Street
No one here seems to have mentioned the offset considerations..............

But it's often things like offset and domestic content which tilt the balance of the procurement decision one way or the other.

- Fair point OTS; speaking of which, IIRC, the 'sale of the century' F16 Euro-offset program was one of the most extensive ever offered, does anyone know if all or most of those 'lines' have now completely closed down?

I don't, Sminkey, partially because the F-16 is not ours but LockMart's.

You're absolutely right, though; the F-16 Offset and Domestic Content was huge -- just like the F-35 JSF will undoubtedly be. I seem to remember that The Netherlands got a huge piece of the pie, building all the landing gear for all the F-16s, not just their own.

If this is the case, they're singing in Amsterdam.

[edit on 20-7-2005 by Off_The_Street]

So far the Typhoon has been dropped from Greece, South Korea, and Singapore.

What other nations is the Typhoon competing in?

Originally posted by Hockeyguy567
So far the Typhoon has been dropped from Greece, South Korea, and Singapore.

What other nations is the Typhoon competing in?

Could I ask why do you seem so pleased about every supposed 'failure' to do with the Typhoon? The glee fairly leaps off the screen.

I know there is nothing explicit in the wording but this tone is apparent across several of your posts. I just wonder why you seem so pleased about it as I certainly get no similar 'pleasure' from an aircraft not being selected.

For me its just the whole aviation scene that I find fascintaing but for you (and others too it must be said) the whole US plane Vs European plane thing reads like its Man Utd V Leeds or something

Could I ask why do you seem so pleased about every supposed 'failure' to do with the Typhoon? The glee fairly leaps off the screen.

I know there is nothing explicit in the wording but this tone is apparent across several of your posts. I just wonder why you seem so pleased about it as I certainly get no similar 'pleasure' from an aircraft not being selected.

For me its just the whole aviation scene that I find fascintaing but for you (and others too it must be said) the whole US plane Vs European plane thing reads like its Man Utd V Leeds or something

Good point Waynos.
I particulary like US aircraft, But there is a fascintation in aircraft design
British,French,Italian,Spanish and heaps of others.
With these forums people get patriotic which is fair enough.
But at the end of the day if WAR is on the US and EU would fight together side by side.

lol dont forget canada there is with yah too lol. well at least we can fuel your planes even if our airforce currently bites ass.

SORRY Canada_EH.

And of course NATO

lol much better. well we can at least know that in at least 10? years canada should have the 35's and be in an even better position to help. we got the ppl and mind power but a stupid gov what can yah do. oh and i agreed with you point just in case ppl didn't catch it. As history has proven when the # hits the fan we are all in the same boat. Also the US gov realizes to trade and the fact that they arent the only ones in the world it now good to do crap to piss ppl in nato countries even if nato has lost power the countries havent really.

Damn, but I understand them...

Originally posted by waynos

Originally posted by Hockeyguy567
So far the Typhoon has been dropped from Greece, South Korea, and Singapore.

What other nations is the Typhoon competing in?

Could I ask why do you seem so pleased about every supposed 'failure' to do with the Typhoon? The glee fairly leaps off the screen.

I know there is nothing explicit in the wording but this tone is apparent across several of your posts. I just wonder why you seem so pleased about it as I certainly get no similar 'pleasure' from an aircraft not being selected.

For me its just the whole aviation scene that I find fascintaing but for you (and others too it must be said) the whole US plane Vs European plane thing reads like its Man Utd V Leeds or something

I asked a simple question. You could've simply said "Yes I know of other competitions," or "No I don't know of any."

Jeez.

Don't misunderstand me hockeyguy (also check your U2U's). I did say that I recognized there was nothing specific in the question you asked, but earlier in this thread you posted

This doesn't surprise me, the Typhoon is getting slapped down everywhere

And there are several similar sentiments elsewhere on the board, its as if you have an 'anti Typhoon agenda' and I am genuinely interested.


In answer to your question by the way I can only think of Norway and Saudi Arabia without checking;

Although Saudi was reported to have chosen the Rafale it has since been reported that it is not the case and the Typhoon is still very much in the running there, although to be fair it is reported that the Saudi market has collapsed.

Norway was supposed to choose between the Typhoon and a upgraded F-16 in 1999 but deferred the decision for six years so they should be re-opening the competition soon, though I have heard nothing yet.

Austria has ordered the Typhoon and aircraft are to be deferred from the RAF in order to allow earlier deliveries to them, this was the source of recent mistaken rumours that the RAF was'already selling off its brand new fighters' in several newspapers.

I have also seent he Typhoon mentioned in relation to Japans new fighter requirement but I cannot see Japan ever NOT buying whichever aircraft is most suitable AND is offered by the US, such is politics.

Originally posted by Daedalus3
Yeah .. I doubt it was the F-16 over the typhoon..
Maybe F-16 over Grippen/RAfale would be better...
A more appropriate comparision would be the Su-30MK(?) "over" the typhoon..
or vice versa

The comparison (I have included also the Mitsubishi F-2 which is an modified F-16)


1) maximum speed

Su-30MKI "Flanker-H" 2500 km/h
Eurofighter Typhoon 2390 km/h
F-16C Fighting Falcon 2175 km/h
Rafale 2125 km/h
Mitsubishi F-2 2124 km/h
JAS39 Gripen 2124 km/h
Su-30MKK "Flanker-G" 2120 km/h


2) rate of climb

Eurofighter Typhoon 18898 m/min
Rafale 18300 m/min
Su-30MKK "Flanker-G" 18300 m/min
Su-30MKI "Flanker-H" 18000 m/min
Mitsubishi F-2 15300 m/min
F-16C Fighting Falcon 15250 m/min
JAS39 Gripen 15240 m/min


3) ceiling

Mitsubishi F-2 20000 m
Eurofighter Typhoon 19810 m
F-16C Fighting Falcon 18000 m
Su-30MKK "Flanker-G" 17300 m
Su-30MKI "Flanker-H" 17300 m
Rafale 16800 m
JAS39 Gripen 15240 m


4) engine thrust

Su-30MKI "Flanker-H" 262 kN
Su-30MKK "Flanker-G" 246 kN
Eurofighter Typhoon 180 kN
Rafale 174 kN
F-16E Fighting Falcon 144 kN
Mitsubishi F-2 131.67 kN
F-16I Fighting Falcon 129.6 kN
F-16C Fighting Falcon 127 kN
JAS39 Gripen 80.5 kN


5A) weapons payload

Rafale 9500 kg
Mitsubishi F-2 8085 kg
Su-30MKI "Flanker-H" 8000 kg
F-16C Fighting Falcon 7700 kg
Eurofighter Typhoon 7500 kg
JAS39 Gripen 6500 kg


5B) internal cannon rounds

Mitsubishi F-2 515 (20 mm)
F-16C Fighting Falcon 515 (20 mm)
Su-30MKK "Flanker-G" 150 (30 mm)
Su-30MKI "Flanker-H" 150 (30 mm)
Eurofighter Typhoon 150 (27 mm)
Rafale 125 (30 mm)
JAS39 Gripen 120 (27 mm)


6) maximum range

Su-30MKI "Flanker-H" 5000 km
F-16XL Fighting Falcon 4580 km
F-16C Fighting Falcon 4220 km
Eurofighter Typhoon 3790 km
Rafale 3705 km
JAS39 Gripen 3200 km
Su-30MKK "Flanker-G" 3000 km


7) price

Mitsubishi F-2 108 mil USD
Eurofighter Typhoon 100.15 mil USD
Rafale M 90.5 mil USD
Rafale C 83.3 mil USD
F-16I Fighting Falcon 70 mil USD
Su-30MKK "Flanker-G" 53 mil USD
JAS39 Gripen 40 mil USD
Su-30MKI "Flanker-H" 35 mil USD
F-16E Fighting Falcon 26.9 mil USD
F-16C Fighting Falcon 18.8 mil USD


8) aircraft built

F-16 Fighting Falcon 4450
JAS39 Gripen 213
Eurofighter Typhoon 200
Su-30MKK "Flanker-G" 134
Su-30MKI "Flanker-H" 124
Mitsubishi F-2 98
Rafale 82

Unbelievable.

Given their situation, couldn't they be spending this money to save the economy ?
That's really a strange deal to me.

Just ask the yanks for the source code and all plans.

They won't get em.


That's why the UK said NO. Glad they did.

American planes have a habbit of firing on Allies.


Tornado and Harrier pee's all over em, as do Saab's and Mig.

Originally posted by Chrysalis
Unbelievable.

Given their situation, couldn't they be spending this money to save the economy ?
That's really a strange deal to me.

It's a 6 year old thread...

Originally posted by Chrysalis
Unbelievable.

Given their situation, couldn't they be spending this money to save the economy ?
That's really a strange deal to me.

Hey genius it's an old thread. Maybe do a little reading before offering your "expert" opinion eh?
And there have been no major defence procurements since the crisis started.


And for the record, the F16 was not chosen over the Eurofighter.
The F16 was chosen to replace some old aging aircraft that needed to be retired.
It was chosen because the F16 was capable of filling that role, and because it was more cost effective to buy aircraft which the logistics and pilot/ground crew/maintenance techs training already existed. To introduce a new fighter would have been expensive. And Greece did not have a current need. It will have a need for a new fighter from 2015 and beyond, and that's when that decision will be made.
The next fighter Greece buys will be either the Eurofighter or F35.
The French offered a full assembly line for HAI in Greece, if Greece chose the Rafale. They even offered to swap Greece's new Mirage's for Rafale's, with Greece paying the difference.
The F35 will not be chosen unless whatever is destined to be assembled in Turkey is assembled elsewhere.

The next ten years is going to be interesting to say the least. Geopolitically, the eastern Mediterranean is changing significantly. The USA-Israel-Turkey alliance is dead, a new Greek-Israeli alliance is maturing. It will be interesting to see if they allow Turkey to remain in the JSF project, let alone NATO, the way Turkey is heading.