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Military Admits Gitmo Abuse, Lets Commander Skate

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posted on Jul, 16 2005 @ 04:29 PM
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Of that list you provided, which are acts of abuse and which are acts of torture, Souljah?

See, the majority of reports indicate acts of abuse, whereas, you claim they are acts of torture.




seekerof




posted on Jul, 16 2005 @ 04:31 PM
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Originally posted by Malkut:
Do you think that the allged tortures and abuses are helping the US image and help decrease acts of terrorism? Is that your point?



Originally posted by Seekerof:
yes, that is exactly my point.



Thanks, Seekerof. Great to know where you stand on the topic. Now your posts make much more sense to me.


[edit on 16-7-2005 by Malkut]
Forgot to add the quotes
Be well, Seekerof

[edit on 16-7-2005 by Malkut]



posted on Jul, 16 2005 @ 04:31 PM
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Originally posted by Seekerof
When Souljah ceases with the rhetoric, then the rhetoric returned ceases.
This has been a long a spawning process between him and I, anyhow, correct, Souljah?


Sir Yes SIR!



Its a Long Process I Agree - and by now you should know I do not Stop so easily.

I know that sooner or later The Empire Strikes Back - but be careful for the Return of the Jedi!



PS: Hey where is mister Amuk Hiding Lately? Havent seen him around in a while. I kindda Miss Him....




posted on Jul, 16 2005 @ 04:36 PM
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Malkut, your welcome. Be assured, I have come to understand you, as well.



Souljah, Amuk is around and doing well.
We all miss him when he is not around.
I hope you continue to have a good weekend, mate.

Be well...I need to move on.
I enjoyed this interaction, as I always do.






seekerof



posted on Jul, 16 2005 @ 04:39 PM
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Originally posted by Seekerof
Of that list you provided, which are acts of abuse and which are acts of torture, Souljah?

Well Sir, its a Long List - take a Pick and Choose what you like Most!



Be well...I need to move on.
I enjoyed this interaction, as I always do.

The Pleasure was All Mine, Sir.



...and May the Force Be With You!




posted on Jul, 16 2005 @ 07:25 PM
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Gee, another list from the ACLU. Now THERE'S a credible source. Anybody wonder how they figured out all these abuses, when they have NEVER been to Gitmo themselves? Anybody else wonder that their list was compiled of complaints from the detainees, with ZERO corroboration?

Anybody wonder that there are no credible sources of these complaints?

Anybody wonder why the most vehemiently vocal opponants of President Bush (mostly Congresspersons and state reps, led by Shirley Jackson Lee), who recently went to Gitmo themselves to witness the alledged abuses, came back to tell that the detainees are certainly not being abused or tortured, and in fact are living in better conditions than the US Soldiers ordered to watch over them?


C'mon, there are so many people involved in the containment of detainees, don't you think at least ONE would come forward to admit HE did anything bad? Oh, sorry, that would require actually thinking, something conspiritists sadly lack the ability for........



posted on Jul, 16 2005 @ 08:02 PM
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Originally posted by Army
Gee, another list from the ACLU.


Now I know you have been conditioned to believe the ACLU is evil and meddling by those (particularly extreme conservative hacks) who wish to infringe on many of your rights but it is simply not true. You can provide me many links of ridiculous ACLU 'incidents' but on the whole they are a positive force for good in the United States. You need some organization to be on the back of the governments all the time about civil liberties, because if you give politicians an inch they're gonna take a mile.

Now this report is interesting, because the Army admits to Guantanamo Bay abuse and violation of the geneva conventions and the AFM. Do I believe that there were more incidents than the 5 that they admit?? Yes I do believe there were more incidents than this that were omitted from the report or that were simply covered up and not reported by the soldiers and commanders doing the interrogation.

The big issue with this case is really US international image. This does negative things to its image all around the world and particularly the middle east, reaffiriming in the minds of young men there that the United States is the evil empire and it needs to be destroyed. I think that the actions at places like Guantanamo is an excellent recruiting tool for terrorism, both fundamentalist terrorism and secular terrorism. Instead of the US distancing themselves from the incidents the US is standing behind what goes on at Guantanamo bay and to people around the world this looks like the US is condoning and intentionally torturing people.

thanks,
drfunk



posted on Jul, 16 2005 @ 08:30 PM
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Originally posted by skippytjc

Nothing wrong at Club Gitmo at all. Maybe you guys should comment on all the REAL toruture that happens in this world



How old are you ? I'll loved to see you get taken away to Guantánamo Bay, to have all you rigths disappear. You would cry like a baby. Can you please relax the drama this is a adults fourm not a day time soap opera.



posted on Jul, 16 2005 @ 08:37 PM
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Isn't the point obvious?

We know that there are suicide bombings happening, almost on a daily basis.

We know that certain factions would not hesitate for one second to torture and/or murder an Allied POW/detainee.

Does that mean it's ok to mistreat the detainees in Gitmo? Nope.

When it happens, Allied detainees are not being held, abused or tortured by any government, are they? If and when it happens, it's because of an insurgent group, or another terrorist faction. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm yet to see any evidence at all that Americans, Brits, or other Allied troops have undergone state-sanctioned abuse (in regards to the current military situation).

So what's our excuse? Gitmo is a base completely under the control of our government; there are certain expectations in terms of how prisoners are meant to be treated. Aren't we supposed to know better? And behave better?

For all the insistance that 'we're better than that...we're trying to show them democracy', there seems to be an awful lot of "tit for tat" going on. And that undermines the whole premise of trying to encourage democracy in Iraq.



posted on Jul, 17 2005 @ 12:23 AM
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From Army:
"Anybody wonder that there are no credible sources of these complaints? "

Maybe you did not read the first post. (i.e. the army has admitted to abuses being carried out in gitmo)

Maybe you should follow the post before posting your inhumane rant...


Perhaps if you cannot, then you should refrain from commenting on situations where other people are suffering.

Or you could just comment on your nice new sofa and coffee table you just bought...



posted on Jul, 17 2005 @ 01:17 AM
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Originally posted by Sand_man

Originally posted by skippytjc

Nothing wrong at Club Gitmo at all. Maybe you guys should comment on all the REAL toruture that happens in this world



How old are you ? I'll loved to see you get taken away to Guantánamo Bay, to have all you rigths disappear. You would cry like a baby. Can you please relax the drama this is a adults fourm not a day time soap opera.



Have you seen the documentary called "The Guantanamo Guidebook"?



"The Guantanamo Guidebook was made by Channel 4 using declassified documents about the US camp, producers said.

The methods used on seven volunteers in the show included religious and sexual humiliation, forced nudity, sleep deprivation and extreme temperatures."
news.bbc.co.uk...


This site has a personal account from one of the volunteers:
www.teamdelta.net...



Article by "Prisoner 73" on his experience
"Total deprivation of sleep, food and water, exposure to extreme heat and cold, up to 20 minutes in stress positions, up to 2 hours listening to white noise... plus any other interrogation technique deemed acceptable by the interrogation team' By any standards the waiver I signed for "Guantanamo Guidebook" was special, and two weeks later when I was lying naked, shaved, shackled in a ball on the floor, alone with a hood over my head, listening to white noise with a cold fan at my back, I realized just how superficial the term 'informed consent' can be."

....

..in front of the others they stripped me, shackled me to a chair and shaved my head. When I didn't react to their taunts they then carried me out, still in the chair, to an unheated room, put the white noise earphones on and left me with a fan to chill me.

Their white noise sounded like a woman screaming, played backwards and repeated on a short cycle so that the drone becomes repetitive and inescapable, particularly because a single word - 'inhuman' - is said forwards repeatedly on top of the track.

....

I don't regret participating in the show, hard as it was. My beliefs on the subject have crystallised and I think I have a better understanding of myself under pressure - if nothing else I've learnt what sleep deprivation can do and my academic studies may be saved as a consequence - but if anything comes out of this programme, I hope it is that people stop and genuinely think about what we are willing to do to protect ourselves. I, for one, would rather we missed some intelligence sources and even took casualties than put innocents through what I went through; if we loose our humanity then we have lost the War on Terror.





Yeah, i'd love to see the 'Clubgitmo' parrots take on a challange like this and come out the other end with the same tough talking crap they repeat over and over again. It would change a few narrow minds no doubt.



[edit on 17-7-2005 by TheShroudOfMemphis]



posted on Jul, 17 2005 @ 01:25 AM
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The fact that these guys have not been charged with any particular crimes or given any trials and yet are living in these conditions is what's worst about all of this. We've degraded from mistreating people that've actually done something, to mistreating people that have done nothing at all. It's still innocent until proven guilty, right? Or has Bush and Co. changed this in the name of "national security" too?

Imagine being abducted from your country by an invading bully force, sent halfway across the world, and then having to endure all of this without a single trial or possible way out. Then these abuse issues are raised. The government admits to some. Now everyone is focused on trying to figure out something that there is absolutely no evidence of save what they'll admit to us, or, worse yet, whether or not this is a bad thing for us to do. So many of you forget what compassion for other human beings is.

Our country used to be held to higher standards. Now our standards are compared to al Qaeda's instead.



posted on Jul, 17 2005 @ 01:36 AM
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Umm yeah, thay have admitted this long before the "long-awaited" report came out. Let's see they have court-marshalled and convicted many soldiers and even a general over this matter....they did'nt do that just
for the hell of it or because everything was going smoothly.

Think about it...this is not new news and they have admitted for quit sometime now....

Here's a news flash for you......Muslim Terrorist admit to killng innocent Iraqis and Brits!!! What do you have to say about that? Oh, that's right...you don't ever say anything about that....cause it would not degrade the US. Why is that?

sporty



posted on Jul, 17 2005 @ 01:46 AM
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Originally posted by Hashbaby

Maybe you did not read the first post. (i.e. the army has admitted to abuses being carried out in gitmo)

Maybe you should follow the post before posting your inhumane rant...


Perhaps if you cannot, then you should refrain from commenting on situations where other people are suffering.

Or you could just comment on your nice new sofa and coffee table you just bought...


Abuse? Hell, then Army Basic Training must be too abusive for you guys! Oh my gosh...LOUD MUSIC! (well, granted, if it was Celine Dion, I would be crying for the ACLU also) TOO HOT IN THE ROOM, GOLLY, IT"S ALMOST 100F! From a people who live in 135-145F....etc. Your inhumanity curse should be reserved for the detainees that were captured on the battlefield, killing women, children, other Muslims, and have dedicated their lives to killing all infidels.......that includes you too.

Yes, I read entire threads, not JUST the titles. There were 4-5 acknowledged ABUSES....please note, no TORTURE implied, shown, or proven...out of thousands of sessions of questioning over 3+ years. That's hardly a record to try to proove another conspiricy, or a blatant calculated effort to bring any real harm to the detainees.

BTW, I reserve my humanity for those who conduct themselves humanely. Live like an animal, die like one.



Oh yeah, I've owned the same couch and coffee table for about 10 years now....but I'm not sure what the heck you meant by that.



posted on Jul, 17 2005 @ 06:29 AM
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Originally posted by Army
Abuse? Hell, then Army Basic Training must be too abusive for you guys! Oh my gosh...LOUD MUSIC! (well, granted, if it was Celine Dion, I would be crying for the ACLU also) TOO HOT IN THE ROOM, GOLLY, IT"S ALMOST 100F! From a people who live in 135-145F....etc.

Few Highlights from Gitmo "Abuses":

# Barbed wire, forced to walk barefoot on
# Chemical/pepper spray, misuse of
# Cigarette burns
# Electric shocks, threats of electric shocks
# Exposure to weather and temperature extremes, especially via air-conditioning
# Immersion in water to induce perception of drowning
# Induced perception of suffocation or asyphxiation
# Physical assault, eg punching, kicking, beatings with hands, hose, batons, guns, etc
# Physical exercise to the point of exhaustion, e.g. "ups and downs", carrying rocks
# Piling, i.e. detainee is sat on or jumped on by one or more people ("dog/pig pile")
# Sexual humiliation
# Sexual assault
# Threat of rape
# Threats of reprisals against relatives
# Twenty-four hour bright lighting
# Withholding of medication
# Withholding of toilet facilities, leading to defecation and urination in clothing

I just Picked some out for You, Sir.

Combine them in any way possible any the Abuses get quickly transformed into TORTURE.

I would like to see how you would act and react to these "Abuses" if they were performed on You in any Combination possible for Days, Weeks, Months, Years. Would you still think of them as Abuses then?

For Complete List:

web.amnesty.org...



posted on Jul, 17 2005 @ 05:27 PM
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And, of course, you have absolute proof that these allegations of "abuse" actually occured?

The military agreed to 4-5 minor discomforts that were given to these terrorists, but you insist that your list absolutely occured. Who's list is this again? The ACLU? Did it occur to you that the ACLU has NO, NONE, ZERO, NADA jursidiction, nor lawful prudence, outside the USA? AMERICAN civil liberties union has NO say how combat detainees held in another country should, or alledgedly were, treated. Do you know how the ACLU even GOT the list, or where it came from? I'll give you a hint....the people are known as lawyers, and they represent the detainees, who gave them a list of alledged "torture and abuse".

Washington Times


I'm sorry, where again was the ACLU when Mike Duran was taken hostage in Somalia? Or the bodies of Rangers were dragged throught the streets of Mogadishu? Or any of dozens of filmed and photographed atrocities committed by terrorists against unarmed and innocent citizens?



posted on Jul, 17 2005 @ 05:55 PM
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Originally posted by Army
The military agreed to 4-5 minor discomforts that were given to these terrorists, but you insist that your list absolutely occured. Who's list is this again? The ACLU? Did it occur to you that the ACLU has NO, NONE, ZERO, NADA jursidiction, nor lawful prudence, outside the USA? AMERICAN civil liberties union has NO say how combat detainees held in another country should, or alledgedly were, treated. Do you know how the ACLU even GOT the list, or where it came from? I'll give you a hint....the people are known as lawyers, and they represent the detainees, who gave them a list of alledged "torture and abuse".

Tell me Sir, why are these "Detention Camps" not on AMERICAN Soil?

Why are they all in Foreign Land?

Like Cuba, Afganistan, Iraq and some Undisclosed Locations we wont ever find out?

Do You have any Clues About that?

And MOST of these Detained "Terrorists" are probably Innocent - or better Said GUILTY Until Proven INNOCENT - which means they probably never even commited any of those crimes they were supposed to be accused of.

More than 500 people are still detained at the Guantánamo prison, according to current estimates. The overwhelming majority has not been charged with any crime.

When are They going to be Charged? If Charged at all...?

The Schmidt investigation is reported to be the last of the military’s attempts to look into widespread allegations of prisoner abuse and torture at Guantánamo.

Sooner or Later....


"You cant Hide The Sun, The Moon and the Truth...."

[edit on 17/7/05 by Souljah]



posted on Jul, 17 2005 @ 10:55 PM
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Do you really want fanatical, murderous, single thought terrorists purposely brought into the USA? We built areas especially for them, on bases capable of dealing with the risk. For me, that is a far better alternative.

As for them simply being there for no reason at all...hogwash. They were combatants, captured in battles against the terrorist infrastructure. They are being held at Gitmo, to keep them from killing any more of their fellow muslims, or Americans or Brits or Spaniards or Russians or even any more French.

As you know, we have released a few hundred from Gitmo, after evidence proved that they were not core terrorists. The rest....cannot show that kind of proof. These are bad guys, not random samples of various examples of tribal heritage. The very bad guys are having a tough time of it at Gitmo, but only because they bring to themselves.

I repeat myself far too often...or mayhaps not often enough...The USA does not need any reason to defend herself from international criminals. The fact that there are people in the world that wants us dead, for the sole reason for being American or infidel...really pisses me off. If killing and capturing terrorists will help end terrorists, I'm all for it......because asking nicely hasn't worked at all.



posted on Jul, 17 2005 @ 11:42 PM
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Army


C'mon, there are so many people involved in the containment of detainees, don't you think at least ONE would come forward to admit HE did anything bad? Oh, sorry, that would require actually thinking, something conspiritists sadly lack the ability for........


This really pisses me off.

You want to lump all conspiracy theorists into one category, and then label them all uninteligent?

Get tossed.

Most conspiracy theorists display above-average inteligence. It's the good judgement that's lacking in some. What's the average IQ of military recruits? Oohh..ouch..the average IQ of an army recruit is 80. That's 40 points below the average college graduate.

Next time you feel like generalizing an entire demographic, why not just go sit in the road until a truck runs you over instead?



posted on Jul, 18 2005 @ 01:00 AM
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Hmm...*reading....reeeeadiiinnnggg...* Nope, can't see where I said anyone was unintelligent. Had I, it would have read "conspiricists are stupid".

I did say that they do not think. Perhaps I should have included, that they simply react in ways that do not require logic, reason, or prolonged thought processes. This is better known as "emotion".

Notice, that the HUGE majority of links to sites with "proof", is another conspiricist website! "Look! Here's proof of my theory; another completely unproven theory!"

Remove emotion, gather ALL evidence, extrapolate your theory from ALL evidence, then present it to the world. That way, people like me can see that you have looked at both sides, and have come to a logical conclusion.

But until then, please do not put words in my posts, that I did not put there myself.



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