Need info on Roscrucians and possibly related subjects

Vile is in insulting someone who is relating events surrounding the death
of a loved one. Someone who happened to be a rosicrucian, subject of this thread.

You have no sense of respect.


You have yet thought me anything
but the diffamation of the minds that
do not share your beliefs.


Remember that you need my ignorance
to flatter your own sense of knowledge,
so you should be glad that I am here
to serve you as mirror.



Keep evaluating yourself on me,


Cedric

Originally posted by Centiment

Vile is in insulting someone who is relating events surrounding the death
of a loved one. Someone who happened to be a rosicrucian, subject of this thread.

You have no sense of respect.


You have yet thought me anything
but the diffamation of the minds that
do not share your beliefs.

Oh, you're the offended party now?

You were the one to portry your uncle as something evil, hinted that he was part of a Gay conspiracy. And YOU have the gall to say I'M the one to do it? Again

Here's YOUR words:

But though I wouldn't be surprise that my uncle
participated in group sex, I totally
doubt the rosis are anything spooky or evil.

Man, that's double speak.

C'mon man, your soapbox is getting slippery, step down.

BTW, you do realize that others read these posts. They can see the tripe you're posting.

I've used "=" before tonight, let me again.

Centiment = Zero credibillity.

Too bad you didn't see my title before Mod, it was "Fighter".

>>>>You were the one to portry your uncle as something evil, hinted that >>>>he was part of a Gay conspiracy. And YOU have the gall to say I'M the >>>>one to do it? Again


I say that the Rosis are crazy, not evil.

I am sorry for those affiliated with freemasonry,
but if I would care pulling out the evidences and books
(some of which are on Senrak list, many of which are not),
I would demonstrate that only people seriously engaged
in new age and esoterics would find an appeal to that group.

I am saying that those frustrated by the lack of
esoterical exchanges in freemasonry would
probably adore rosicrucians. It is wild
on that aspect. They take literally what
(I am guessing) freemasons only assume to
be symbols.


Of course you are going to get a different opinion
about this matter coming from an experienced
freemason. Of course esotery doesn't harm anyone.
But it's what it is, imho people get lost in it.



>>>Centiment = Zero credibillity.


I like that, it goes well
with a website dedicated to secret conspiracies.


>>>>>Too bad you didn't see my title before Mod, it was "Fighter".


Well, you chose to be a website mod,
each person his job.


maybe that makes me your "terror"?



Cedric Zero-Credo

Originally posted by Centiment
>>>>>Too bad you didn't see my title before Mod, it was "Fighter".


Well, you chose to be a website mod,
each person his job.


maybe that makes me your "terror"?

No man, I didn't choose it, I felt it my duty to the site.

You My terror? Have you been following these threads?

You have yet to lay a "credible" point.

BTW, you've been registered longer than I have, do you not feel some appreciation for the site? I've yet to see it.

Originally posted by The Vagabond
Last but not least, it is being suggested that the Roscrucians are trying to create a trans-human race called moon children, possibly descended from Nephilim.
quote]

Yet another thread going to the dogs. I'll try to get things on track here...

I know very little about the modern Rosicrucians. A good friend of mine and brother is one but we don't chat about that very much. BTW, he's a great guy. Anyway, about the moonchild....

The moonchild is a myth in western occultism that comes from an old Rabbinical practice. When a Rabbi decides to conceive a child, he involves himself in the process in a much deeper way (excuse the pun) than mere physical coupling. The Rabbi actually decides what kind of child he wants to have and what attributes he or she will possess. This is done by drawing down a particular 'type' of soul at the moment of conception. There are numerous theories on how this is done and you can only imagine how this idea is fertile ground (excuse the pun) for power-hungry megolomaniacs immersed in occultism in a desperate attempt to rid themselves of their feelings of powerlessness.

So yes, I've heard these tales and they're bunk. If you really want to know about this you might be able to get a rabbi to fill you in but I doubt it.

For a humorous tale you can check out the story of Jack (John) Parsons of J.P.L. and how he tried to create a 'moonchild.' He was going to incarnate Babylon. Well, he was so excited about this enterprising idea that he sent a letter off to Aleister Crowley to tell him about it. Now Crowley had a few funny ideas himself but he quickly sent a letter back to Mr. Parsons and told him that he had lost it, cracked or some such term and that he'd better get his head screwed back on.

the end.

Ok,

I looked at a bunch of books
here just to shut Intrepid's mouth
and allegiate Senrak's exasperation.



I'm too lazy to write details,
but if someone U2U me I can
write the author



Fama Fraternitatis | Confessio Fraternitatis

R * C
(that's just what is inscribed....looks like a spooky, luxurybound, catechism.)

Zanoni: A Rosicrucian Tale

Philosophie Rosicrucienne en Questions et Réponse

Rosicrucian Cosmo-Conception: Mystic Christianity

Sacramentaire du Rose-Croix

Rosicrucian Manifestos

Secrets Et Symboles Des Rosicruciens

Hermetic Philosophy
(a couple books)

The real history of the Rosicrucians

Rosicrucian Enlightment

La Bible Des Roses-Croix
(ridicule title)

Message d'une initiée de la Rose-Croix

L'Ontologie des Rose-Croix

Histoire Des Rose-Croix (Hutin)

Le Tresor Des Alchimistes
(a few books on alchemy and similar topics,
many books on spiritual and natural healing,
and many photocopied books)

blah blah blah.........




I've got a few magic objects,
a costume and a sword,
cloths, lamps and stuff...

Tarots stuff.


"exoterica"



Cedric Phiminel

Originally posted by Centiment
Ok,

I looked at a bunch of books
here just to shut Intrepid's mouth
and allegiate Senrak's exasperation.



I'm too lazy to write details,
but if someone U2U me I can
write the author

blah blah blah.........

Wow, your Blah continues!

BTW, I'm NOT to lazy to retort.

I saw words in your response, NO links.

No Content. Oh, damn, I'M SHOCKED!

Originally posted by HeirX
The moonchild is a myth in western occultism that comes from an old Rabbinical practice.

The Rabbi actually decides what kind of child he wants to have and what attributes he or she will possess. This is done by drawing down a particular 'type' of soul at the moment of conception.

So yes, I've heard these tales and they're bunk. If you really want to know about this you might be able to get a rabbi to fill you in but I doubt it.

Thanks- nobody else so far had been able to make heads or tails of the moonchild thing. I suppose that explains a thing or two... kind of.

As for the thread going to the dogs- I don't really see how. Granted there's been a little spat which looks like it may stem from a language barrier almost as much as from anything else, and the theory we are discussing is out there (i never said i beleived a word of it anyway) but what is a conspiracy site for?

I always thought that "moon children" were albinos, but maybe that's something else.

[edit on 7/10/2005 by djohnsto77]

Sorry man, the topic should be allowed to continue.

My bad.

Originally posted by HeirX

For a humorous tale you can check out the story of Jack (John) Parsons of J.P.L. and how he tried to create a 'moonchild.' He was going to incarnate Babylon. Well, he was so excited about this enterprising idea that he sent a letter off to Aleister Crowley to tell him about it. Now Crowley had a few funny ideas himself but he quickly sent a letter back to Mr. Parsons and told him that he had lost it, cracked or some such term and that he'd better get his head screwed back on.

Some Crowley quotes about Parsons Babylon working.

To Karl Germer (head of the US O.T.O. at the time):

"Apparently Parsons or Hubbard or somebody is producing a Moonchild. I get fairly frantic when I contemplate the idiocy of these louts."

"Suspect Ron playing confidence trick -- John Parsons weak fool -- obvious victim prowling swindlers"

"It seems to me on the information of our brethren in California that Parsons has got an illumination in which he lost all his personal independence. From our brother's account he has given away both his girl and his money. Apparently it is the ordinary confidence trick."

And yes, the Hubbard mentioned is L. Ron Hubbard of Scientology fame.

www.babalon.net... has a lot of stuff about Parsons and his moonchild attempt. You might also check out Crowley's Novel "Moonchild". (you can find it online)

Not really your bad intrepid. Your doing your unpaid and often thankless job. I've been there on other sites.

My guess is that given time our friend will become much more skilled with the English language by using it on ATS (I've been there too- it's amazing how quickly my spanish comes back to me after a weekend in Mexico) and little difficulties like this will become less common. Granted there were other issues as well, but they were only part of the problem as I saw it.

Originally posted by djohnsto77
I always thought that "moon children" were albinos, but maybe that's something else.

[edit on 7/10/2005 by djohnsto77]

Moon Child is also Michael Jackson's mantra.

I can't link stuff that is physically near me,


I am reporting my experience so that
people who don't know anything about the
congregation get a vague idea that you specialists
here might not need to hear.


I won't be here long anyway if I
realize everybody is endoctrinated to the core.
I will read from a distance and get the inspiration
that I first came here to seek.

I understand why societies receive bad press.
Bad energy all around.


Cedric


"Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful."

(Seneca)

Originally posted by Centiment
I am sorry for those affiliated with freemasonry,

Centiment,

There are NUMEROUS groups out there that have taken upon themselves the name "Rosicrucian" including the Masonic branch. But it is in NO WAY connected to the strange group you describe that your uncle may have been involved in.

So, please don't feel "sorry for those affiliated with Freemasonry" There's no need to feel sorry for us at all.

A quote from one of our MSRICF web-sites:


The Masonic Societas Rosicruciana in Civitatibus Foederatis (Rosicrucian Society of the United States) was formed on September 21, 1880, by three Colleges chartered within the previous ten months by the Society in Scotland. It is entirely autonomous and in no way connected with any other institution.

The Society is in amity with the only other similar societies in the wold--Societas Rosicruciana in Anglia (England) and Societas Rosicruciana in Scotia (Scotland).

Membership, which is by invitation, is predicated on Masonic affiliation and Christianity. The Society is not merely another degree of Freemasonry which may be acquired and outside of the normal "workings" of the Craft.

The Masonic qualification assures the membership that the neophyte has given proof of that fidelity and privacy which characterizes a member of that Fraternity. The Christian qualification is required because the character of the Grade rituals is completely Christian, and would not be understood or appreciated by those of other faiths. This character is emphasized in the Ceremony of Admission and it will be noted that a certain community outlook and understanding among the members (called Fraters) is necessary.







[edit on 11-7-2005 by senrak]

The Freemasons make it sound like
England and America is everything.


Freemason is thoroughly english,
but Rosicrucians have strong roots in
other parts of the world.



Here is a description of John Valentine Andreä's
"Chemische Hochzeit Christiani Rosencreuz"

from this website:
freemasonry.bcy.ca...


"Andreä's tale of an invisible Society of Rosicrucians describes the founding of a society of eight "lovers of wisdom" who studied medicine and occult sciences and dedicated their lives to practicing "physic" without payment. They met in a "House of the Holy Spirit" and each appointed one man to succeed him at his death. Although the existence of this society or brotherhood has never been proven, many subsequent groups have claimed lineage. "


This is from this Wiki:

en.wikipedia.org...

"A large majority of modern Rosicrucians believe in the study of Spiritual Astrology as a key to the Spirit, designed toward spiritual development and self-knowledge, as well as an aid to healing through Astro-Diagnosis."


That is exactly the sort of "strange and ackward stuff"
that I am referring about.


As far as I know, freemason is a fraternity, and the pursuit
of esoteric research is a secondary aspect.

All I am saying is that...for Rosicrucians, the esoteric research
is CENTRAL. You don't want to become a Rosi just to make frien
the same you would if you wanted to become Freemase.


If you believe Freemases are also deeptly engaged
with esoterism, than come again, most masons I know
use the lessons as symbols and claim that the group
have nothing to do with religion. The rosis
is quasi a religious group.

I can only imagine the freemasons starting a Rosi
group to study esoteric subjects more thoroughly
than is possible with standard masons, but that
again, like everything that I say, is all the product of my
imagination. Right ?


Everybody here is a know-it-all and are
part of the best lodges, it seems,



Cedric Phi

Originally posted by Centiment
The Freemasons make it sound like
England and America is everything.

Funny...I've been one for 16 years and have never gotten that impression.

Freemason is thoroughly english, but Rosicrucians have strong roots in
other parts of the world.

Wrong. Even a TINY bit of research would show you that Freemasonry exists (with STRONG ROOTS) in every free country in the world (and even in some non-free ones)

"A large majority of modern Rosicrucians believe in the study of Spiritual Astrology as a key to the Spirit, designed toward spiritual development and self-knowledge, as well as an aid to healing through Astro-Diagnosis."
That is exactly the sort of "strange and ackward stuff"
that I am referring about.

Fascinating.

As far as I know, freemason is a fraternity, and the pursuit
of esoteric research is a secondary aspect.

No. It IS indeed a fraternity and the pursuity of "esoteric research" as you call it, is primary. The discovery of one's SELF.

All I am saying is that...for Rosicrucians, the esoteric research
is CENTRAL. You don't want to become a Rosi just to make frien
the same you would if you wanted to become Freemase.

For whatever reason you seem to believe that either

a: there is only ONE group of Rosicrucians, or

b: all the different groups exist for the same reason

Neither is true. There are several DIFFERENT organizations that consider themselves Rosicrucians and exist for various reasons. Not ALL of them for the purposes you describe.

If you believe Freemases are also deeptly engaged
with esoterism, than come again, most masons I know
use the lessons as symbols and claim that the group
have nothing to do with religion.

Maybe you don't know enough Freemasons. I do. (Myself included)

The rosis is quasi a religious group.

Again, you say that as if there's only ONE Rosicrucian group. Although, the Masonic Rosicrucians require that a member be a Christian....not just "religious"

I can only imagine the freemasons starting a Rosi
group to study esoteric subjects more thoroughly
than is possible with standard masons,

"standard masons" huh? I'll have to think about that for a while.

but that again, like everything that I say, is all the product of my
imagination. Right ?

Don't ask me. You're the one telling this story and claiming to be an expert on Freemasonry and Rosicrucianism.

Everybody here is a know-it-all and are
part of the best lodges, it seems,

Most of us here are here to share information with one another...not to be a "know-it-all" but when you make "blanket statements" like you've made above, it appears you know very little (if anything) about the subject at hand.

"best Lodges"? I have no idea what you mean...some of the members here are not members of ANY Lodge at all. And some of them have their plumbing compromised by them it seems.

Senrak Omega! (Or was it Upsilon?)

>>>Wrong. Even a TINY bit of research would show you that Freemasonry >>>exists with STRONG ROOTS) in every free country in the world (and >>>>even in some non-free ones)


Yet they all talk about the London Grand Lodge, or Scottish and York rites.



>>>No. It IS indeed a fraternity and the pursuity of "esoteric research" as >>>you call it, is primary. The discovery of one's SELF.


That would mean that you are teaching religious materials
while proclaiming religion not be a goal of freemasonry.



>>>>There are several DIFFERENT organizations that consider themselves >>>>Rosicrucians


YET these groups do not follow the interests of the first "real"
medieval-era, rosicrucians.



>>>>Maybe you don't know enough Freemasons. I do. (Myself included)


I know enough esoterists, astrologers, who are way more deep
in their craft than many masonics who are only either obsessed
by the symbols and myths the fraternity fetishize, or by the charities
help they can provide, or attracted by the opportunity to make some friends.



The few endoctrinated freemasons (that I'm sure are all here) spend all day at the lodge figuring what object should go where, or repeating ridicule parables to each others

"What is the color that says..bla bla bla"

"Yes, venerable master!"...this and that....

Gimme a break....



>>>>>"standard masons" huh?


Yes, I think many masons, including the big historical ones,
entered the fraternity for the sake of "fraternity" and the fun of rituals.
NOT to become experts in esoterism.

And I'll dare add that, when they need a good astrologer, they don't even
consider for a freemason one (half of the money would be spent on hearing tiring list of symbols and numbers).




>>>>it appears you know very little (if anything) about the subject at hand.


Freemasons are obsessed with symbology.

The rosicrucians that I know are categorically
doing esoteric or magic experiences, especially
concerned with healing. I doubt they recite
sentences of recognition all day long, or spend
an autistic attention to where each objects
is positioned in the lodge.



Masons spend so much time according degrees
that means next to nothing.

"Oh I am that sudden great sage, been granted 32 degrees,
let's go on ATS and show everybody how wise
that I am".


If you were talking about poles of energy in the body,
and how you can influence them, than that would be truly
esoteric, but the freemasons don't seem to make any use
of their teachings except for how they decorate their lodges.


Actually, that distance the masons take through symbology
ironically makes them seem way more down to earth
than other "groups", but if we are going to deny allegory,
and speak of esoteric endoctrination, than the "rosicruce that I know", regardless that I defined them as "way out there", seem to make a little bit more sense.

Their purpose is research, not teaching.

A naive mason apprentice would make no sense within
the rosis. You're into this... or you're not. See what I mean ?
No teaching.


Cedric Phi

Originally posted by Centiment
Yet they all talk about the London Grand Lodge, or Scottish and York rites.

Uhm...no. Many of them do not give a rat's fuzzy behind about the United Grand Lodge of England. Outside the United States the so-called "York Rite" doesn't exist per se and the Scottish Rite is French/German in origin...not Scotch at ALL.

That would mean that you are teaching religious materials
while proclaiming religion not be a goal of freemasonry.

No. Masonry is NOT a "religion" but it's teachings ARE INDEED "religious" in nature.

YET these groups do not follow the interests of the first "real"
medieval-era, rosicrucians.

Which was what? How do you KNOW that for a fact?

I know enough esoterists, astrologers, who are way more deep
in their craft than many masonics who are only either obsessed
by the symbols and myths the fraternity fetishize, or by the charities
help they can provide, or attracted by the opportunity to make some friends.

I suppose that could be said of many organizations, but it doesn't detract from the fact that true Masonry is DEEPLY esoteric (regardless whether any of your acquaintences are aware of it or not)

By the way, just a bit of info. It's "Masons" (members of the Masonic Order) not "Masonics"

The few endoctrinated freemasons (that I'm sure are all here) spend all day at the lodge figuring what object should go where, or repeating ridicule parables to each others
"What is the color that says..bla bla bla"
"Yes, venerable master!"...this and that....
Gimme a break....

Oh. I see. You're ridiculing and "baiting" (one step away from "trolling") I thought we were attempting an intelligent conversation here. Apparently you're incapable of that.

Yes, I think many masons, including the big historical ones,
entered the fraternity for the sake of "fraternity" and the fun of rituals.
NOT to become experts in esoterism.

I won't argue that many Masons aren't fully aware of what Masonry is REALLY all about.

And I'll dare add that, when they need a good astrologer, they don't even
consider for a freemason one (half of the money would be spent on hearing tiring list of symbols and numbers).

I can't even begin to imagine what you're talking about. Why would we need a good (or even a mediocre) astrologer?

Freemasons are obsessed with symbology.

Blanket statment. I couldn't agree with you less.

The rosicrucians that I know are categorically
doing esoteric or magic experiences, especially
concerned with healing. I doubt they recite
sentences of recognition all day long, or spend
an autistic attention to where each objects
is positioned in the lodge.

Yet another statement that demonstrates that you don't even have a fundamental knowledge of Freemasonry.

Masons spend so much time according degrees
that means next to nothing.

To you. To many Masons it's very important (for various reasons)

"Oh I am that sudden great sage, been granted 32 degrees,
let's go on ATS and show everybody how wise
that I am".

I'll reserve comment.

If you were talking about poles of energy in the body,
and how you can influence them, than that would be truly
esoteric, but the freemasons don't seem to make any use
of their teachings except for how they decorate their lodges.

Again, this statement demonstrates that you are totally unaware of what Freemasonry REALLY is. (I'm glad of that, by the way.)

Actually, that distance the masons take through symbology
ironically makes them seem way more down to earth
than other "groups", but if we are going to deny allegory,
and speak of esoteric endoctrination, than the "rosicruce that I know", regardless that I defined them as "way out there", seem to make a little bit more sense.
Their purpose is research, not teaching.
A naive mason apprentice would make no sense within
the rosis. You're into this... or you're not. See what I mean ?
No teaching.

Plenty of teaching for a Mason who's interested enough to learn. A non-Mason, though, cannot possibly comprehend it. And it's that way by design, you, yourself, being a perfect example.

Yes, Centiment/Cedric-Phi, I DO see what you mean. You first interjected your strange story about alleged Rosicrucians who stole (yet bought) your uncle's estate from your family. That seemed to be a bad thing and the people involved somewhat evil or at least nefarious.

All of a sudden when the existence of Rosicrucian Freemasons was brought to the table you suddenly turned on Freemasons (not that any of us care) and are seemingly supporting the Rosicrucians. Are there TWO of you Centiment (if you know what I mean?) If not, this entire wayward path seems totally unnecessary.

Besides, the original thread was started by Vagabond to gather information (by that I mean "legitimate" information not speculation) about Rosicrucians. It's certainly degenerated.

I believe you've made up your mind about certain things and cannot be swayed. That's your choice.

This, as far as I'm concerned, terminates my participation in this particular unnecessary (and bizarre) twist that the thread has taken.

>>>>>How do you KNOW that for a fact?


How do you know for a fact that it was not.

All the early rosicrucians writtings lead to that interpretation.



>>>>>Oh. I see. You're ridiculing and "baiting"


They are other means to teach the kabbal than to go
through all sorts of initiations that seem to infantilize
knowledge.


If they are esoteric teachings beneath all the fla-fla
of masonry, than I think the theatrics are doing not
much than distancing the wise man from them.

There is no necessity for this fla-fla.


You can teach someone about divine propotion
without making it sound like you are a special
scholars receiving degrees of an esoteric university.


How can you teach 30 lessons by running around
a whole day playing all sorts of simulations.
That is not serious.


As a tradition, as a system of initiations
enhancing the notion of engagement
to a fraternity's sake, than that could
have a point, but assuming that great
esoteric knowledge are taught and
assimilated in the process is a stretch.





>>>>>>Why would we need a good (or even a mediocre) astrologer?


Isn't it one of the sciences that you promote ?
At least compas and square metres (forgot the english term)
have a fair use in astrology.

As it did at the times masons were building churches.
I wonder exactly how they use their various tools
for concrete purpose these days ?

If they use it in science, I never hear about it.
I only hear about charities and community services.





>>Freemasons are obsessed with symbology.
>>>>>>>Blanket statment. I couldn't agree with you less.



For the common of mortals, getting a book on masonry in hand is likely
to be filled by myriads of symbols and their definitions. Rarely do you
ever get a description about their pratical use. Ironically the tools of masonry are venered as symbols. I think one would learn more reading the various tomes of Vitruve. Have you read ? Maybe you could find a logical application for masonry in there.



>>>>Again, this statement demonstrates that you are totally unaware of >>>>what Freemasonry REALLY is. (I'm glad of that, by the way.)


Of course you are glad. Masons are ultimately "better-men".
Better for the sake of being better. Anyone criticizing
anything is non-evolved.

They hold better understandings on the secrets
of how this universe is built.

Triangles and squares that would crash in the matters
of milliseconds in the contexts of polydimensions.





>>>>>A non-Mason, though, cannot possibly comprehend it.


I understand rosicrucians better than I do masons.



>>>>>the people involved somewhat evil



A little bit endoctrinated but not evil.

They need the company to finance
their activities (building a spa).

The really really believe in their stuff.
Anyone else would use the money to have fun
and travel.


I am both pro and anti masons and rosis.
I am putting things in place.


Rosis are dogmatic but are pertinent
in their esoteric interests.


Masons make sense as a moral fraternity
but get lost in the way they transmit
esoteric knowledge.

For example, they affublated kabbal
with their own symbols, as though it wasn't
complex enough.


Also, I find the masons pretentious.
when other sects actually do everything to
stay hidden. People take pride into it.


I find pertinent a comparative discussion
between masons and rosis.


Cedric Desphiguring