Some Important Things to Keep in Mind

Star & flag for this one.

Anyone who has the time should find the trial transcripts of the expert witness testimony from Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District (my alma mater, sadly) to get a really fascinating look at the mindset behind both sides of the debate.

reply to post by Nygdan

Some Important Things to Keep in Mind

Just to add to what you said and or left out.
Here are some more important things to keep in mind, since mind is what we are actually talking about.
You have only touched on the physical aspects of evolution and not the spiritual. Of course all material things evolve and or change, However, the mind in which some material things possess (such as humans) do not. Can not.
If humans evolved from anything less than what we are spiritually,(our mind/intellect) We would not have evolved into what we are today because we could not posses the means to evolve at all.In other words our intellect has kept us where we are at though out human history, That being on top of all others in every aspect.Its the mind which has no material attributes that makes the human not the material body.Only someone/something with an intellect can create. Speaking of evolution is one thing, However when you speak of creation as it relates to humans, you must take into consideration the human mind, which is its spirit/will/intellect, which has nothing to do with evolution since material things only can evolve. Your being a little bias in your reasoning.Don't you think?

[edit on 16-8-2010 by oliveoil]

[edit on 16-8-2010 by oliveoil]

Originally posted by oliveoil

If humans evolved from anything less than what we are spiritually,(our mind/intellect) We would not have evolved into what we are today because we could not posses the means to evolve at all.

False. This makes no sense whatsoever but I'll invite you to provide your evidence anyway.

.In other words our intellect has kept us where we are at though out human history, That being on top of all others in every aspect.Its the mind which has no material attributes that makes the human not the material body.

False. The material body also makes the human.

Only someone/something with an intellect can create.

False.

Speaking of evolution is one thing, However when you speak of creation as it relates to humans, you must take into consideration the human mind, which is its spirit/will/intellect, which has nothing to do with evolution since material things only can evolve.

False. Non-material things also evolve.

You may wish to study up on evolutionary theory.

reply to post by traditionaldrummer


Originally posted by oliveoil

If humans evolved from anything less than what we are spiritually,(our mind/intellect) We would not have evolved into what we are today because we could not posses the means to evolve at all.
False. This makes no sense whatsoever but I'll invite you to provide your evidence anyway.

So now im arguing with someone who claims to be a drummer who doesnt even know what a paradiddle is. Dude, Think about it. We as humans could never be anything less than what we are, that being human. Not physically, but intellectually.We are all born with a blank slate.Our teachers, none other than our parents,who in most cases are human which possess intellect to support us.(A rabbit could not support a human!! this would be a rabbit) maybe you are an exception to this rule!

False. The material body also makes the human.

So now you are in agreement as to what the human is composed of even though you refuse to exercise your better half.

Only someone/something with an intellect can create.
False.

First define the word create, Than show me otherwise.

False. Non-material things also evolve.

How can something in which you can not see,hear,touch,feel,.... in other words...nothing...evolve. Not to be rude but...
Bro,.....USE YOUR HEAD MAN!!!!!

Originally posted by oliveoil
So now im arguing with someone who claims to be a drummer who doesnt even know what a paradiddle is. Dude, Think about it. We as humans could never be anything less than what we are, that being human. Not physically, but intellectually.We are all born with a blank slate.Our teachers, none other than our parents,who in most cases are human which possess intellect to support us.(A rabbit could not support a human!! this would be a rabbit) maybe you are an exception to this rule!

You said this:

If humans evolved from anything less than what we are spiritually,(our mind/intellect) We would not have evolved into what we are today because we could not posses the means to evolve at all.

I said it made no sense but that you could present your evidence. How does your above response address your original claim?

So now you are in agreement as to what the human is composed of even though you refuse to exercise your better half.

You said:

Its the mind which has no material attributes that makes the human not the material body.

Now, it appears you're claiming that the material body is "half".

First define the word create, Than show me otherwise.

Create: to cause to come into being. Volcanoes create islands. Ants create anthills. You claimed "only someone/something with an intellect can create." Clearly the volcano has no intellect. It's arguable if the ants do.

How can something in which you can not see,hear,touch,feel,.... in other words...nothing...evolve. Not to be rude but...
Bro,.....USE YOUR HEAD MAN!!!!!

I already pointed this out to you in another thread. Social darwinism, memetics, etc. all show us how the immaterial can evolve. Even religions evolve. Intellects also evolve, which is why the social zeitgeist changes from epoch to epoch.

Back to the original point I still don't see the sense in whatever it is you're getting at. Maybe if you could state your theory in a single sentence, that would be great.

reply to post by traditionaldrummer

You said this:If humans evolved from anything less than what we are spiritually,(our mind/intellect) We would not have evolved into what we are today because we could not posses the means to evolve at all.
I said it made no sense but that you could present your evidence. How does your above response address your original claim?

Look at what I wrote. How could we be anything less than what we are? If we were or if we had been something less we would have remained something less.Asserting that we evolved means that we are something more, which we are not. We are human. No less, no more.And we will never be anything more nor have we ever been anything less.

Create: to cause to come into being. Volcanoes create islands. Ants create anthills. You claimed "only someone/something with an intellect can create." Clearly the volcano has no intellect. It's arguable if the ants do.

Correction, Volcanoes do not create anything Rocks and lava were already there.What created the Volcanoes? As far as ants go, do they not contain intellect? Like I said, "only someone/something with an intellect can create." .

[edit on 16-8-2010 by oliveoil]

Originally posted by oliveoil
Asserting that we evolved means that we are something more, which we are not.

No it does not mean "we are something more". Like I said, brush up on evolutionary theory.

So as I had asked, can you sum up your theory in a single sentence please?

If we are not something more (intellectually) than what we supposedly evolved from by reason, we would be the same. unchanged. Not evolved. I think it is you who needs to brush up. however, not on evolution(which makes no sense) but rather creation. Perhaps some biblical theology could add reason to your folly.

[edit on 16-8-2010 by oliveoil]

Originally posted by oliveoil
If we are not something more (intellectually) than what we supposedly evolved from than by reason we would be the same. unchanged. Not evolved. I think it is you who needs to brush up. however, not on evolution(which makes no sense) but rather creation. Perhaps some biblical theology could add reason to your folly.

Well if you claim evolution "makes no sense" then I can understand how you've made up a bunch of false axioms and built bizarre theories from them. Evolution makes perfect sense, is factual and backed by many branches of science.

Using the bible for any kind of understanding about the universe is the worst possible idea imaginable. "Creationism" is severely lacking in at least two fundamental areas: 1. the lack of an apparent "creator", and 2. the fact that the universe doesn't require a creator to exist.

So we can throw that aside.

Back to your hypothesis. You are making an assumption from your "reason" that species have to be "more" than what we evolved from. This is not correct: you operate from a flawed premise. Therefore, you should gain some actual knowledge of evolutionary theory instead of using your "reason" to expand on your apparently rudimentary understanding of it.

reply to post by traditionaldrummer

Well if you claim evolution "makes no sense" then I can understand how you've made up a bunch of false axioms and built bizarre theories from them. Evolution makes perfect sense, is factual and backed by many branches of science.

Evolution as it pertains to ones intellect/will/mind/spirit, Absolutely makes no sense at all.I have no argument as to weather material things such as the human body,rocks,ect evolve. There is no "false axioms" . My proof is that ones intellect/will/mind/spirit is not composed of material substance. Even the most grander of scientists would concur thus being truth.Common sense tells us that if something such as human intellect (ones mind), which contains no material attributes at all does indeed exist, How could it be possible for it to evolve, being that it has no substance to evolve from or too.

Originally posted by oliveoil
My proof is that ones intellect/will/mind/spirit is not composed of material substance.

Proof of what?

...

Hello? aren't you paying attention? Your Ideas, your thoughts,your will,your intellect,your mind, all have no material attributes what so ever. It is you who should prove this statement wrong. Humans are not only composed of matter (which can evolve) but also spirit ie; ones mind, thoughts.(which can not) How much proof do you need. Is this the first time anyone has ever subjected you to sheer truth?

Proof of what?

Truth about what?

That thoughts are immaterial? Who was debating that?

If we are continuously producing things which have no attribute of matter, doesn't it seem reasonable to conclude that there is in us some element which is not matter to produce them?.Keep in mind that matter does not produce matter. How can this element in us evolve. It cant, meaning we did not. Im through with you. NEXT!!!

Originally posted by oliveoil
If we are continuously producing things which have no attribute of matter, doesn't it seem reasonable to conclude that there is in us some element which is not matter to produce them?.Keep in mind that matter does not produce matter. How can this element in us evolve. It cant, meaning we did not. Im through with you. NEXT!!!

Your thoughts and consciousness are a result of millions of synapses firing. Synapses and neurons are material. You are aware of how the brain works, correct? And that it is a material object? And that our brains are an evolved organ?

reply to post by Heronumber0


Well, I just have to ask; do you also not agree with germ theory, the theory of gravity, cell theory, plate tectonics, acoustic theory, and giant impact theory?

'Cause a theory is not someone's "views," Hero.

reply to post by traditionaldrummer


All right, Now we are getting some where. Of course I am aware of how the brain works silly.The fact is, is that these electrical discharges that the brain (yes, a material object) gives off are just that. These grooves (electrical bleeps) only accompany the thought; they are NOT the thought. Okay now follow close. When we think of justice, we are not thinking about these grooves in the brain. Justice has a meaning, and it does not mean grooves.Mercy also means something(different than justice) When we say that mercy is kinder than justice we are not comparing mercy's grooves with the stricter grooves of justice. fact is , is that our ideas are not material.However, to say that our ideas are not concrete and have no meaning is a fallacy., Just like saying that the material brain produces brains. Material things can not produce material things or any thing, No way..nada.

[edit on 16-8-2010 by oliveoil]

[edit on 16-8-2010 by oliveoil]

[edit on 8/16/2010 by maria_stardust]

There is NOT a single part of your Anatomy which is "Aware" of you, unless you are hearing voices in your head ???

Perhaps some sufferering, have conversations with some part of their Anatomy ???


One of the functions of your brain is a "Decoder/Encoder" between your "Conscious Entity" and this little Universe, you experience through the Species.

Your "Conscious Entity" is of a Non-Dimensional Source, so this is why it is difficult to study or prove anything of that Non-Dimensional world you exist in.



[edit on 16-8-2010 by The Matrix Traveller]

reply to post by oliveoil


So what if we assign some meaning to our concepts? They're still sourced to a very material object. I still don't even see what you're getting at.

So what if we assign some meaning to our concepts? They're still sourced to a very material object.

Where is the so called physical sourced to i.e. how is the so called physical manifested ???

Is it of a non-dimensional Source ???

Is the experience of the physical only the result of a "Processing System" of a non-dimensional source ???

Perhaps an "Animation Program" of Awareness ???