India's Third Reich Fighter Plane

The Hindustan HF-24 Marut.

According to "A Handbook of Fighter Aircraft" by Francis Crosby of the Imperial War Museum Duxford the Hindustan HF-24 Marut which first flew in 1961 was designed by Kurt Tank designer of the Focke Wulf aircraft for the Third Reich. His team included 18 German engineers and started work in 1957. The Hf-24 was the first supersonic fighter built by a non-superpower.

HF-24 Article

more pics

I have seen this glanced over in a few threads, but would like comments specifically to this aircrfaft. Anyone here actually fly one of these, or serve with units that used them?

Looks like they just needed some more horespower.

[edit on 6-25-2005 by groingrinder]

Great aircraft, but was underpowered .... would have been better if it had a better powerplant.

Its design roots make me proud.

India offered assylum to this German designer and in return for it he offered to design the Maruth(as its called in India).

It was designed for a mach 2+ engine but the british only gave India an underpowered engine that would make the maruth go supersonic only in dives.

It was the backbone of the Indian air force for quiet a while.

It was not really a "pilots aircraft" and was modestly effective.

Here's what an ex maruth pilot had to say in his blog(that i found) :

The Marut was the first fighter designed and produced in India. The legendary Dr Kurt Tank, of Focke Wolf 191 fame, led the team of aircraft designers in the 1950s to produce what was an excellent airframe. However, from its inception right upto its retirement in 1980, the Marut lacked a suitable power plant.

The Marut saga is a story of dismal project management and illustrates the inordinate sway of the Indian Defense Research Establishment over critical defense procurement decisions.

The Indian Air Force was never enthusiastic about inducting it. The aircraft's combat performance was dismal and so was its weapon load. Its high pressure hydraulic system was prone to frequent failures and its canopy and ejection systems had serious defects. During its short service life the Marut fleet was grounded for many months on many occasions.

The Maruts participated in the 1971 war but accomplished little more than pin prick strikes thanks to their limited payload. Their ability to fly at over 600 K at tree top levels, however, stood them in good stead and helped them escape attacking Sabres. Indeed, during the 1970s the three Marut squadrons operated by the IAF were more cause for worry to the Air Marhsals of the IAF than the Air Marhsals of the PAF.

I started my career in the IAF as a Marut pilot (1975-1980) and flew nearly 700 hrs on it. I had the dubious distinction of participating in its decommissioning in 1980 when the Air Force finally decided to give up on it. One of my last sorties on the Marut was a flight to Kanpur to deliever a spanking new aircraft to Kanpur for cocooning.

It was only when I went to Jaguars that I understood how potent a fighter jet could be just as how much more fun flying a fighter could be.

The point that I am trying to make here is that for good reason the IAF has not been happy with what the Defense Research Establishment in India has had to offer. The Marut is just one of the examples. I am aware of more. This is not to suggest that the IAF is not appreciative of the effort to indigenize. It is, but its responsibility to procure the best weapon systems within our limited resources is greater.

link

dose'nt seem too rosy does it ?

and through other discussions i have picked up the piece of information that a fellow ATS member Daedalus3's dad flew one of these.

Interesting.

However, just when the Indians, Chinese and Europeans were starting to make themselves believe they were actually in the same league as the U.S. ... the target has moved again.

Well, check out this ATS thread:

www.abovetopsecret.com...


[edit on 6/25/2005 by centurion1211]

Originally posted by centurion1211
Interesting.

However, just when the Indians, Chinese and Europeans were starting to make themselves believe they were actually in the same league as the U.S. ... the target has moved again.

Well, check out this ATS thread:

www.abovetopsecret.com...


[edit on 6/25/2005 by centurion1211]

We are in the same league...
Europeans helped build the F-22 and F-35..
Europeans are getting the F-35..

Originally posted by devilwasp
We are in the same league...
Europeans helped build the F-22 and F-35..
Europeans are getting the F-35..

- .......and as for the ability of microwave energy to do things to animals, birds etc this has been observed since Britain invented centimetric radar (centimetric radar is microwave radar).
True, 'IC's (Integrated Circuits) and 'chips' didn't come along for another few decades but I hardly think Americans have been alone in figuring out microwave energy interferes with them.

[edit on 25-6-2005 by sminkeypinkey]

Originally posted by centurion1211

However, just when the Indians, Chinese and Europeans were starting to make themselves believe they were actually in the same league as the U.S. ... the target has moved again.

Well, check out this ATS thread:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

care to explain the relavence of this post ?

this is about an aircraft that went into service in the 60's.

and BTW, america would'nt have had half the tech level it currently has if had'nt taken german tech and its scientists after ww2.

Another defense institute in Bangalore is using a microwave-producing version of Kali which the scientists use for testing the vulnerability of the electronic systems going into the LCA Tejas under development and designing electrostatic shields to protect them from microwave attack by the enemy.

link

and india is developing systems to protect electronics against such microwave attacks. and nations with a tech level far higher to india's like russia, france, and britain will have developed such systems a while back.

Originally posted by Stealth Spy
and BTW, america would'nt have had half the tech level it currently has if had'nt taken german tech and its scientists after ww2.

- OK, seeing as you yourself have taken this 'off topic'.

I'd lay money on Kurt Tank being disgusted with the type of association with the 3rd Reich you're making. IIRC he was not happy at being labelled a nazi of any description.

I don't know Stealth Spy, between your enthusiastic "Third Reich Fighter" titles and your trademark willingness to believe almost everything of any significance today traces back - only and completely - to Adolf's gang you really are determined to make your 'fan' status plain, eh?

Maybe you have come across some new 'spells' to resurrect that ghastly gang (in your own mind), hmmm?

I have little intrest in making retaliatory personal attacks or turning this thread into a flame war slug feast or an off topic bonanza.

On the same note getting back, check out this GREAT link on the Marut tracing the involvement of the Germans, the prototypes, British involvement, Russian intrest, etc

HINDUSTAN FIGHTER HF-24 MARUT : BUILDING INDIA'S JET FIGHTER



Info on Kurt Tank >> link

Originally posted by Stealth Spy
I have little intrest in making retaliatory personal attacks or turning this thread into a flame war slug feast or an off topic bonanza.

- Neither have I Stealth Spy.

I just do not understand why you wish to dwell upon and associate with that revolting shameful period of German history.......and avoid the major facet of it; namely the multi-million deaths they caused across Europe and the world.

What's all that "german " and the gleeful references to 3rd Reich stuff about, hmmm?

Originally posted by groingrinder
The Hindustan HF-24 Marut.

According to "A Handbook of Fighter Aircraft" by Francis Crosby of the Imperial War Museum Duxford the Hindustan HF-24 Marut which first flew in 1961 was designed by Kurt Tank designer of the Focke Wulf aircraft for the Third Reich. His team included 18 German engineers and started work in 1957. The Hf-24 was the first supersonic fighter built by a non-superpower.

HF-24 Article

more pics

I have seen this glanced over in a few threads, but would like comments specifically to this aircrfaft. Anyone here actually fly one of these, or serve with units that used them?

Looks like they just needed some more horespower.

[edit on 6-25-2005 by groingrinder]

Not to bust your party but still:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

REAAAAAAAAAAAAAD and ime mun nyyttejä, vitun varkaat.

This is shameless double, and bad one as such.

HAL HF-24 Marut "Spirit of the Tempest" by: Kurt Tank

posted on 25-8-2003 at 01:04

Shameless say i.

Loved this pic of yours fulcrum :

The Marut, as an aircraft, was shown to be tough and capable. No aircraft were ever lost in air-to-air combat.

The Marut was a tough aircraft. On at least three occasions, Maruts regained their base after one engine had been lost to ground fire. On one of these, a Marut returned to base without escort on one engine from about 150 miles (240 km) inside hostile territory. On another occasion Wg Cdr Ranjit Dhawan, flying his Marut through debris that erupted into the air as he strafed a convoy, felt a heavy blow in the rear fuselage of the aircraft, the engine damage warning lights immediately glowing and one engine cutting. Fortunately, the Marut was capable of attaining a safe and reasonable recovery speed on one engine, and Dhawan had no difficulty in flying his crippled fighter back to its base.

Flying approx 200 sorties during the two week war, Maruts ranged 200 NMs into south Pakistan striking Hyderabad and Talhar airfields and interdicting railway systems at Mirpur Khas and Rohri. Maruts also helped finish the route of the Pakistani army’s 22 Cavalry at Longewala. A Marut flown by Sqn Ldr KK Bakshi of 220 Squadron also shot down a PAF F-86 Sabre on 07 Dec 71 (Flg Offr Hamid Khwaja of 15 Squadron PAF). No aircraft were lost to air action although by the end of the war three Maruts had been lost to ground fire (two POW, one KIA) and one lost on the ground.

Read full...Marut in combat


[edit on 26-6-2005 by Stealth Spy]

The aircraft continued in service till 1982 when it was replaced by the MiG 23 BN. The aircraft will be remembered for its superb handling being called the “Super Hunter” by its pilots. A promising design that could cruise supersonic at 40,000 feet, the Marut finally met a disappointing end thanks to un-kept promises and international politics that embroiled HAL and several successive engine vendors. Thus ended India’s first true fighter design. It would be exactly 40 years since the Marut’s first flight when another indigenous design- the Light Combat Aircraft would take to the Indian skies again on 04 Jan 01.

Read full ... When the Wind Blows.. HF-24 (grear pics :up

SORRY FULCRUM! I did a search for HF-24 and it came up completely empty, so I went ahead and initiated this thread. I am checking the excellent info in your thread right now. If ATS does not want double threads, something needs to be done about the lame search feature.

This thread was not to praise the Third Reich, but to show the relevancy of their jet aerodynamics research at the conclusion of WW2. I started my research fully expecting to see a fighter plane of astounding power and grace and was genuinely surprised to find otherwise.

Thank you Stealth Spy for your excellent info and links. I especially liked the pilot's blog entry.

Originally posted by sminkeypinkey

Originally posted by Stealth Spy
I have little intrest in making retaliatory personal attacks or turning this thread into a flame war slug feast or an off topic bonanza.

- Neither have I Stealth Spy.

I just do not understand why you wish to dwell upon and associate with that revolting shameful period of German history.......and avoid the major facet of it; namely the multi-million deaths they caused across Europe and the world.

What do you find shameful about Kurt Tank, Smikeypinkey? What was he charged with? Where was he tried? Just being a German isn't enough: Just being an ardent Nazi isn't enough: Just having designed aircraft which attacked Britain isn't enough--------for me to denigrate his name. Fortunately for me, and unfortunately for you, most of the world agrees with me.

Kurt Tank also built a jet for Argentina or Brazil which I believe went supersonic. It's name started with the letter "P" but I forget it.

What's all that "german

" and the gleeful references to 3rd Reich stuff about, hmmm?

You do enjoy grabbing the wrong end of the stick don't you Forschung.

From what I can see Sminkey never said anything about Kurt Tank being shameful, but the thread is called 'India's Third Reich Fighter Plane' which, apart from being innacurate, as it implies the Marut itself originated in Nazi Germany, does dwell on the Nazi period of Germany's history, as do several other posts that stealth spy has put up lately, one of which even enthusiastically exhorted us to 'just think where we'd be if Germany won the war'.

The other Kurt Tank design you are referring to was the Argentine FMA Pulqui II, which was not supersonic but in the Hunter/MiG 17 performance class. This aircraft IS very interesting however as, being designed by Tank, it is actually the closest relative to the Ta-183 to actually fly.

Pulqui II




Willi Messerschmitt did however get to design a supersonic fighter as he produced the Helwan HA-300 for egypt. It never acheived its design performance of Mach 2 due to a lack of suitable engines but did manage to fly supersonically.

'Messerschmitt' HA-300

oops, wrong thread, I've already replied to this one. wakey wakey waynos!

[edit on 27-6-2005 by waynos]

Originally posted by waynos
You do enjoy grabbing the wrong end of the stick don't you Forschung.

- In this case absolutely.

I really don't get this....

Just having designed aircraft which attacked Britain isn't enough--------for me to denigrate his name.

- How is saying the truth that - like Messerchmitt and Heinkel - Tank was not actually an ardent nazi to "denigrate his name"?!
(.....and do feel free to really expand on this, I'd love to hear how refering to someone as a less than enthuisiastic nazi is to "denigrate a persons' name"!?
Did we get a little careless with our phraseology, a few little signs of the fan-club showing hmmmm?)

As far as I am concerned Tank was simply a man cought up by the politics of his country (politics he probably, like many educated German men of his time, either felt a luke-warm support for in the begining but later preferred to ignore as there was nothing he could do about them and/or quietly detested them - like his fellow contemporary aircraft designers Messerchmitt or Heinkel).
Certainly not "an ardent nazi".
I actually do appreciate his aircraft designs, I think the Ta 152 was a real contender for being called the best piston engined fighter of the war.

Fortunately for me, and unfortunately for you, most of the world agrees with me.

- I doubt that very much; I'd bet most (like me) are wondering just how you managed to come to this conclusion and what it is, exactly, that you are on about.

From what I can see Sminkey never said anything about Kurt Tank being shameful, but the thread is called 'India's Third Reich Fighter Plane' which, apart from being innacurate, as it implies the Marut itself originated in Nazi Germany, does dwell on the Nazi period of Germany's history, as do several other posts that stealth spy has put up lately, one of which even enthusiastically exhorted us to 'just think where we'd be if Germany won the war'.

- Quite so Waynos.

I thought the thread title would have been a great insult to Tank as IIRC he was - like Messerchmitt, Heinkel etc - far from a committed or enthuisiastic nazi.
I have never seen anything to say he was "an ardent nazi" actually (no doubt our friend will have a single source German language-only book that claims otherwise).

It is well known that Kurt Tank was a friend of Adolf Gallands' (it was he that persuaded Peron to bring Galland to Argentina after the war) and Galland is not only well known for never having been any kind of nazi himself but it is also very well known that Galland despised committed nazis.

Clearly the Marut has nothing to do with the 3rd Reich, it's as absurd as claiming the Apollo was a 3rd Reich moon program.
In fact it's a pathetic distortion........and actually denigrates the thousands of Indian/asian people who worked on the Murat program too.

......and yes, I just have to wonder at what motivates people to do their selective-vision and cheer-lead for that foul and inhumane period and part of German/European/our history.



[edit on 27-6-2005 by sminkeypinkey]