We shelter behind the myth that progress is being made

Souljah, you make excuse after excuse on why this war is 'wrong'. the pile of 'evidence' you have is often circumstancial at best and you are reading info from propaganda sites. I have no problem with you personally, your probably a great guy, but like all young people you have a rosey ideal of the way the world should be. not the way it really is.

Originally posted by XphilesPhan
...but like all young people you have a rosey ideal of the way the world should be. not the way it really is.

Some people may say Souljah has 'principles'.

Edit spelling...again.

[edit on 25-6-2005 by KhieuSamphan]

Originally posted by XphilesPhan
Souljah, you make excuse after excuse on why this war is 'wrong'. the pile of 'evidence' you have is often circumstancial at best and you are reading info from propaganda sites. I have no problem with you personally, your probably a great guy, but like all young people you have a rosey ideal of the way the world should be. not the way it really is.

Oh yea I am sorry for "the Hippy" inside of me.

Or am I the Only one here that things about the Future and about OUR Future - Our Children?

You really want them to Live in a Crazy world like This one?

I dont.

I dont want to Raise a Child, knowing that in 10-15 Years a Nuclear Device will be triggered Somehwere on this Planet.

And Guess what - thats where we are going, if we follow the Current Path.

If a Wise men Realizes that he is walking the Wrong Path, he turns around and goes back - and that doesnt mean he Failed. That only means he realized that in the Right Time.

I think there is still time - not much, but there is still time.

IF we turn around now.

PS: Thanks for the "Young" Compliment. How do you know how old I am? And if I may also ask, how old You are?

[edit on 25/6/05 by Souljah]

Originally posted by Passer By
INTER:

I beleive in science if that is what you mean about a Darwin'ist.

Power needs someone to serve, without someone to serve, there can be no power.

I don't begrudge any solider that does what he/she has to do to get an invading army off their land, until they arbitrary kill innocents. Then there is a problem for me.

As Ghandi said to a reporter once that asked him if his method would work against the likes of Hitler, he responded "It wouldn't look like it at first, many people will be killed and hurt. But aren't many people being killed and hurt already?"

Maybe it is time we all grew up and looked past violence as a means to an end? Just my opinion, but I am happy to say I am in good company.

very wel thats what ghandi said but fact remains that the whole world was under war about every nation race was contributing in stopping the likes of hitler and japanese empire. that time in a year atleast million died but that was a mass war against a super power this is "war" not a "WW3" if it were you would have been under your bed at the moment and
I would have been in a batle.

This is a different situation where a super power has commited a false war on country and the country is in up rising and people are not succeeding developing there lives but are getting killed as we speek.

so is it good that people die how can think that barbaric about life, why dont you kill your parents and your brothers and childern because people are already dieing. WOULD YOU.

If you do YOUR A Murderer.

If you dont YOU JUST RESPECT LIFE.

Inter, two things.

First - I am against the war on Iraq, not in Afganni. My posts on these boards clearly show that. That said, anyone who hurts an innocent life, whether they are Iraqi, or American, or British, or Iranian, or anyone is wrong. Bombings are by their nature non-containable, and end up hitting other innocent people, and for that I feel they are wrong, in fact, they become no different than those who are oppressing them.

Second, let me know if you get warnings from the mod's. Whenever I have just directly quoted, a mod warns me about excessive quoting and then takes 20 points away from me or something.

Originally posted by Interseptor

very wel thats what ghandi said but fact remains that the whole world was under war about every nation race was contributing in stopping the likes of hitler and japanese empire. that time in a year atleast million died but that was a mass war against a super power this is "war" not a "WW3" if it were you would have been under your bed at the moment and
I would have been in a batle.

BUddy, if there was a battle going on that you were in it and I was under a bed, the only reason that I would be under the bed is I'd be with your women. You know make love and not war . Just teasing in fun.

The fact remains, all kidding aside, that what is going on in the middle east right now, and in a more general sense, what has been going on throughout human history is this misconception that the way you beat violence is with more violence. You can't beat the darkness by adding darkness. You can only beat darkness by letting there be light.

Originally posted by Interseptor
This is a different situation where a super power has commited a false war on country and the country is in up rising and people are not succeeding developing there lives but are getting killed as we speek.

- And? So it has always been throughout history. If you wish to change that, I suggest a different tatic. What you are suggesting is that any means are allowed, which is exactly the misconception that brought America there in the first place. That they thought the ends(Oil, power, whatever) justified the means(Lying to the world, starting an illegal war, etc). To combat that you are offering the same misconception. But what a statement to make if you took Ghandi's word? But alas, such a comittment to life, that you will harm none, is very hard for humans to make, and Ghandi was an extraordinary gentlemen.

Originally posted by Interseptor
so is it good that people die how can think that barbaric about life, why dont you kill your parents and your brothers and childern because people are already dieing. WOULD YOU.

If you do YOUR A Murderer.

If you dont YOU JUST RESPECT LIFE.

- People die all over my friend, and not one life is worth more than any other. The difference between those that use suicide bombs(and hit innocents) and those that opress others is only visable by the jerseys you wear. In other words, the only differnce is the side fate has put you on. The same weakness, the same flaw is present. The notion that violence solves anything. I agree completely with you that it isn't those people in Iraq that brought this on them, and my heart feels sorrow for them, but if they respond in kind then they are really no different. There is no one alive that wishes for peace as much as I do, but violence has never lead that way, and it is the hight of ignorance to think that it will solve this problem when it hasn't solved any throughout history.

Does that make sense? It isn't that I am against those defending their homes and land - it is the manner which they are doing it. If what you are saying is "But they have lost their family, their children, ..." then I say they are acting out of vengance, I understand their pain, and if they think that they should kill others, who in turn had nothing to do with the loss, then that only creates more vengence and around we go again...

With much love and respect, it is time to raise above such primative thoughts.

"There are many causes and reasons in this world worthy to die for, however, there is no cause or reason that is worth killing for" - Ghandi

To passer by

I am really sorry for miss under standing you.
I didnt mean to say what I said I hope you under stand, about that murder thing.

What I was trying to say was that even though people are daying because of a sturgle or a war. I just wanted to give My experience as an Dutch Soldier is that the war any war isnt controlled by the people who fight it i.e Military but by people who start it, people who sit on the chairs of power in government (who controls a government controls every thing in even the ministers .etc) some who get on power missuse it for there own benefits or dsires e.g Bush who is only doing this to increace his company value and profits. But in doing this he is killing countles hunders to and more he destroying Europes alience with US, He has already made contribution to the world that most people feel that the US using its power like a Bully and attacking counteries that have nothing to do with DANGER FOR THE US.

Look the people Iraq are being attacked by US troops and and the Iraqis are attacking the US back by burning US flags and by suicide bombing hate thst the US soldiers are barbaric and un humain. But that isnt true every soldier in the world is taught in weapons handeling how when a weapon is loaded that it sholdnt be pointed to any one who is not a ennemy,But only when the Officer hsd told the soldier to shoot at the people as they are the ennemy, and so I do not agree with groups who think that way. when this happens it comes from people who have control over the military these are people like BUSH yes this doesnt come from a commanding ooficer it comes from people who controll them the Konels and up the chain i.e the prime minister and president.

So alright Bush is using the iraqs resouces for his own good, but why is using the millitary and saying there are insurgents in the Iraqi people, these suicide bombers arent from forign states there from Iraq and they have a strugle that they wany the world media to see they can not attack US army head on they dont have the power nor the equipment, also the US Military established in Iraq has more then a Soldier in there possesion of attack but have Airforce,Navy for missile attacks, Tanks etc it goes on these people cant do any thing but to use media coverage techniques suicide bombing to a show internation media the people's strugle and kidnaps to ask demands these methods are wroung but there being used in Iraq because they very less choice the US Government has established a popet Government in Iraq, how can these people live develop there lives,
with attacks daily.

If Bush Admistration wants to eat Iraqs resorces then they should do it peacefully good example INDIA british have never disrupted the indian way of live but just took the there resources for there own good peacefully.

And you may have heard about Jihadist well thats all for media cover story so that people may fear or find that religion a hate full or sommething in fact Jihad isnt been declared for nearly a thousand years and you can check this up in history e.g ottoman empire when it took over greece land it didnt declare JIHAD did it holy war my a$$ this Jihad is all a cover for the war that they are really going on these middle eastern countries mostly muslim, there is going to be another war I believe WW3 and this time the Germans are going to be Muslims even tough they havent started any wars in the past 1900s weard i know they will only attack the American, because this going to the same situation as the Jews were hate and blame on them really what the hell happend in the WTC is still unknown I havent even had a detail explenation this what i heard so far a jumbo hit the tower heat of the fuel burning destroyed the tower. Did you know that the designers of the tower made this building industractable in the 70s/80s the designers were told to build a building that could withstand explosion far greater then Jumbo's, Missle attacks frome Russian air to air missiles how the hell did this building fall in a straight line it looks like the foundations was demolitionised go watch a WTC video, watch closly and roof just falls down not like it were to unstable but it were expldoing or some thing.


[edit on 25-6-2005 by Interseptor]

INTER:

No harm no foul my friend. No offense taken. It is important to stand up for whats right. Hopefully calmer heads will prevail, unfortunately if history is any indication.

Originally posted by Souljah
"In all wars the object is to protect or to seize money, property and power, and there will always be wars so long as Capital rules and oppresses people."

I'm sure capital rules wheter people are being oppressed or not.
Anyway you seems to be our own (ATS) philosopher and idealist! That's a good thing, in my book.

The only way to escape the quote above is to adapt to a philosophy where only people are important and not money as it is now.

Anyway, to solve the Iraq war-terrorists, one have to close the borders. As I understands it, Saudi Arabian teachers fill students and others with the normal anti-us slogans (creating fanatics) and send them on their way to Iraq to fight the devils (americans). So the Iraq recruits should be sent to the borders and close that 'unlimited' flow of terrorists. Once this happens the flow of foregin terrorists in Iraq will fade (and perhaps die out?). Only then can there be peace I belive.

Agree the illusion of progress is false.

Daily attacks, power / water supplies in Bagdad are very patchy. Insurgents becoming more effective / popular.
Oil supplies (and revenues) very intermittent due to frequent attacks

The area run by the UK and allies is much better managed and is showing real progress - I expect US networks haven't reported that fact

The Iraqi forces you've trained are a long way behind those trained by the UK - as you'd expect. It'll be along, long time before the US ones are a credible reliable force - if ever. Not that sure about ours either!

Does anyone know the proportion of US / Iraqi forces employed on these 'joint operations'? - I suspect it's 95% Yank with a few Iraqis for PR value only.

The truth will out and the American people will see what their boys are actually dieing for - hopefully before 2012 / there's some oil left.

Well I thought in 2001 that Bush was a new PRESIDENT for the Americans but in 2005 I think he is STALINs LONG LOST SON of (b*tch).

He really out smarted him self Hope we will see BUSH and HIS FRIENDS in the Hague UN COURT OF WAR CRIMINALS. And I bet that Hitlers spirt is going to killing be it self in laughter. It is going to be in some distant future (very near close to a couple of years).

And you know what I think that probbaly be a IRAQI JUDGE who will be the Bush guide to hell.

IRAQI JUDGE "Mr Bush you have commited mass murder and your definatly gulty" BUSH "Well i am a Bush you know, and I wasnt the president of the US i am a austerian Just like Arnold and I didnt mass murderd people oke may be few million" IRAQI JUDGE "Poor statement send him to the Gas chamber".

[edit on 26-6-2005 by Interseptor]