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We shelter behind the myth that progress is being made

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posted on Jun, 24 2005 @ 04:35 AM
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So we are going to support the myth. As the headless bodies are found along the Tigris, as the mortuaries fill up, as the American dead grow far beyond 1,700 - and, let us remember, the Iraqi dead go into the tens of thousands - Europe and the rest of the world still support the American project.



How many suicide bombers have now immolated themselves against the Americans and their mercenaries and the new Iraqi army and the new Iraqi police force and their recruits? The figure appears to stand at around 420. Back in the days of Hizbollah's war against Israeli occupation in Lebanon, a suicide bomber a month was regarded as phenomenal.

In the Palestinian "intifada", one a week was amazing. But in Iraq, we reach seven a day; Wal-Mart suicide bombing that raises the darkest questions about out ability to crush the uprising.

The reality - unimaginable for the Americans and their self-deluding allies, tragic for the Iraqis themselves - is that Iraq is a hell-disaster. Visit any Iraqi embassy in Europe, talk to any Iraqi in Baghdad - unless they live in the dubious safety of the pallisaded "Green Zone" - and you will hear their narrative of violence and have to accept that we have failed.

The reality is that Iraq is more insecure than ever, that no foreigner dare now travel its highways, that few will venture into the streets of Baghdad. And we are told that things are getting better. And still we believe these lies. And still we fool ourselves in the movie-world of the Pentagon and the White House and Downing Street and, these days, the UN.

Source:
T r u t h O u t

Just how many People more need to Die in order to Persuade the People that War in Iraq is not really Finished, and that War on Terror is really doing nothing to stop this "Terror" from spreading.

Iraq today is more Dangerous then ever before - and you can measure that by the number of attacks a week.

That Number has gone Really High, and that number is only telling us one thing - that Iraq is Out of Control and not that Mission is not Accomplished at all.




posted on Jun, 24 2005 @ 04:47 AM
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Soul, what can you do. When the culutre itself promotes hate, and ignorance, there is little that can be done. Take refuge in the fact that these people that seem to be so blood thirsty generally have never been even in a fight. They use this agression to try and overcompensate.

Heck, the first run in I had with someone on this board who was being rather agressive with the might makes right theory, complained that I was "attacking" him, or asked to turn off the attack. I was amazed that someone that seemed to want war and death and killing found a few harsh words problematic - not that they were harsh towards him/her, but there was simply no way that bullies shouldn't be confronted, and like all bullies when they are, they shrivel.



posted on Jun, 24 2005 @ 05:03 AM
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Originally posted by Passer By
Soul, what can you do. When the culutre itself promotes hate, and ignorance, there is little that can be done. Take refuge in the fact that these people that seem to be so blood thirsty generally have never been even in a fight. They use this agression to try and overcompensate.

Well there is Only ONE Thing I can do - and that is to Show The Door, but YOU have to Open it and step Forward.

Its pretty Simple - I can post Ten articles a day, saying that this War is Utter Crap and really has nothing to do with Stopping the Terror, actually its doing quite the Opposite.

I just wonder how many people have to Die, in order for all those Hard Core War Supporters to see this.

But Instead of reading the News and the Numbers and to think with their own Heads, they will attack me or the Source Site.

Well this article is originaly from Independant Newspaper, if that Helps anybody at all...

[edit on 24/6/05 by Souljah]



posted on Jun, 24 2005 @ 05:13 AM
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Souljah, I know it is deheartening and keep fighting the good fight. They will continue to say and act in their nature, which has been helpped along by a steady diet of them being the "good guys", so that even when all this evidense is piled high in front of them they will refuse to accept it. Isn't it funny how all these pro-bush people, or at least the war mongering ones, all sound like characters from a Stallone or Arnold movie?

Not saying that there are not real points on the other side, but I think they start and end in Afganni. ANything in IRaq is a farce, and a disgrace to humanity IMO only.

It is a shame that we seem to be hell bent on tryingt o control others, but keep in mind, most of these bush supporters don't really beleive what they are saying. They are merely parrots waiting for the cracker they think has been promised them.



posted on Jun, 24 2005 @ 05:26 AM
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Originally posted by Passer By
Souljah, I know it is deheartening and keep fighting the good fight. They will continue to say and act in their nature, which has been helpped along by a steady diet of them being the "good guys", so that even when all this evidense is piled high in front of them they will refuse to accept it. Isn't it funny how all these pro-bush people, or at least the war mongering ones, all sound like characters from a Stallone or Arnold movie?

And You know what Bothers me the Most - that For them All this IS A MOVIE!

Yea, just watching the War on the News on the good old TV, Far away from any real danger and far away from their front door.

And its a Well Written Scenario, my Friend - the people behind it are some Real Monsters when it comes to Mass Manipulation.

But Cowboys wont always Win...

There is just one thing that worries me:

Empires Rise and Fall - But Evil is Eternal.



Not saying that there are not real points on the other side, but I think they start and end in Afganni. ANything in IRaq is a farce, and a disgrace to humanity IMO only.

What do you mean by "they start and end in Afganni"?



They are merely parrots waiting for the cracker they think has been promised them.



Could not Agree with You more!




posted on Jun, 24 2005 @ 05:44 AM
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Originally posted by Souljah
There is just one thing that worries me:

Empires Rise and Fall - But Evil is Eternal.


- Thats ok though. Without evil there could be no good right? How can one define light, if they have never seen the dark? Evil may always be with us, but it will always be the lesser force to love and that is something pretty cool




Originally posted by Souljah


Not saying that there are not real points on the other side, but I think they start and end in Afganni. ANything in IRaq is a farce, and a disgrace to humanity IMO only.

What do you mean by "they start and end in Afganni"?




- Well, from my opinion it seems only fair that if one nation, or group hits another, that some payback is allowed. I am in the minority because I see 911 as a very logical outcome from an agressive American foreign policy, and that it was enevitable that someone would decide to give the US a "bloody nose" for stepping to far. For the AMerican's to want to get OBL seems to me to be a natural concept and one that I was behind completely. Agreed that information since then has lead some to beleive that maybe OBL wasn't really behind this at all, and there may be some truth to that. However, in the end at least offically OBL and the Taliban were behind the 911 attacks and as such set them up for a counter attack. But IMO that is where it stays, against the Taliban and OBL.

It is hard to see what is happening, and even harder when people don't see that they are having their own fear used against them. If only they could see how like a buncj of frightened mice they appear. On one hand bragging about military might and power, but the mere mention of a alternate view they launch into hysteric's like monkeys on crack, and are all willing to give up their freedoms if only the Government will protect them from those people that are different.

As ol billy shakespeare said with conviction, I will say with cynism What a peice of work is man.



posted on Jun, 24 2005 @ 05:47 AM
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Oh Soul, oh Soul, how I sympathise with you. I have now reached the stage whereby I am tired of explaining my viewpoint to those that accept the official line. In fact, I am sometimes wary of speaking out, as people occasionally look at me like I have OBL's head grafted onto my shoulder.

Anyways, what I have perceived as closed-mindedness in others seems to be forcing me away from attempting to analyse current events and into a sort of 'i'm-not interested-unless-it-actually-happens-in-front-of-my-own eyes' attitude, which is wrong, I know, but I have become so disillusioned an confused that it's almost as though I am taking the easy way out and not bothering any more...



posted on Jun, 24 2005 @ 06:18 AM
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as posted by Souljah
That Number has gone Really High, and that number is only telling us one thing - that Iraq is Out of Control and not that Mission is not Accomplished at all.


Two things here, Souljah:
One: Your watching way too much leftwing TV, and definately need to avoid reading from the likes of Truthout.
Two: Your rhetoric, assertions, and conclusions, which have not changed or altered from your day one here, are echoes of one attempting to be a Ted Kennedy 'minime'.


Change comes with a price and does not happen over night or in a day, a week, or in years, be it war or revolution, correct, Souljah? Your, and/with others, attempts to gauge success or failure are quite mystifying. Apprently with the crowd you hang with, the glass is always half-empty. Interesting, no?




seekerof



posted on Jun, 24 2005 @ 06:26 AM
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Originally posted by Passer By
- Thats ok though. Without evil there could be no good right? How can one define light, if they have never seen the dark? Evil may always be with us, but it will always be the lesser force to love and that is something pretty cool


AYE!

Just as Evil is Eternal, so is LOVE - and yes, that is Something Pretty Cool Indeed.


My point with this quote was, that there was always a Babylon to Fight - a Superpower, that is Controlling the World and its Resources, and Dictating the People what is Black and what is White.

And as One Empire Falls, another Arises - and here we go all Over again...

Why is that?

Why cant there be an Empire of Love - why are there just Empires of Evil?




- Well, from my opinion it seems only fair that if one nation, or group hits another, that some payback is allowed. I am in the minority because I see 911 as a very logical outcome from an agressive American foreign policy, and that it was enevitable that someone would decide to give the US a "bloody nose" for stepping to far. For the AMerican's to want to get OBL seems to me to be a natural concept and one that I was behind completely. Agreed that information since then has lead some to beleive that maybe OBL wasn't really behind this at all, and there may be some truth to that. However, in the end at least offically OBL and the Taliban were behind the 911 attacks and as such set them up for a counter attack. But IMO that is where it stays, against the Taliban and OBL.

HMmmmm.... Most of the Hijackers were Actually Saudi Arabian, which would by any Common Sense result in Bombing of Saudi Arabia.

And OBL is Saudi too.

So why Attack one of the Poorest Countires in the World?

Yep, the USA got a Bloody Nose - but what if they did that to themselves, I mean by their Own People?

9-11 is the Conspiracy of our times, and the Trigger for this War on Terrror.

But since 9-11 theres a LARGE Increse in International Terrorism.

Now how can that be, since according to some People, its Going so Well?



It is hard to see what is happening, and even harder when people don't see that they are having their own fear used against them. If only they could see how like a buncj of frightened mice they appear. On one hand bragging about military might and power, but the mere mention of a alternate view they launch into hysteric's like monkeys on crack, and are all willing to give up their freedoms if only the Government will protect them from those people that are different.



Nice View.

But Fear SELLS you know?

Keep them Afraid and they will CONSUME just about Every Bogus Story they come up with!

Sometimes I wonder if they get these Ideas from Hollywood.



As ol billy shakespeare said with conviction, I will say with cynism What a peice of work is man.



Agreed.

But I have Hope for Humanity - few Stupid Men MUST NOT Win this!

They Have NO Right!

As Mister Gandhi said once:

"You must not lose faith in humanity. Humanity is an ocean; if a few drops of the ocean are dirty, the ocean does not become dirty."

There is Always Hope...



posted on Jun, 24 2005 @ 06:37 AM
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your right about every thing Souljah.

When i hear and see suocide bomber kills ten people, and the media says that these are terrorist, I realy get angry, how can you say they are terrorist they are humans that have lives just like us and they killing them self because they want freedom and nobody on the world has the right to take that away. Islam cant be terroristic religion it is the worlds largest growing religion and 2nd biggest in the world, this is what i heard from a muslim, He cant be muslim without excepting the people of the book that are JESUS,MOSES,NOOH my god can this religion even think of attacking what it believes as being gods goodly company.

there not attacking christains at all no way.

thes suicide bombers are growing in number because they have lost families love ones and and are stil losing they want revenge and they dont have a voice to stand up, so they kill them self and they arnt forign terrorist these are the people of Iraq.

theyre burning US flags i think they dont no what there doing because they think it is the American people who have don sin, then we have to say that were not with this Bush Amistration.

Don't let history repeat it self again WW2 Jews remember massicar and Hitler, Darwin'ism.

Put an end to it fight against what is wroung agains mankinds future



posted on Jun, 24 2005 @ 06:38 AM
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Originally posted by Seekerof
Two things here, Souljah:
One: Your watching way too much leftwing TV, and definately need to avoid reading from the likes of Truthout.

I dont watch TV - oh well when I do I am tuned in National Geographic or Discovery Channel.

And what is Wrong with Sites such as Truthout? Or Information Clearing House?

They dont follow the Right Plan, do they - is that Bothering You?



Two: Your rhetoric, assertions, and conclusions, which have not changed or altered from your day one here, are echoes of one attempting to be a Ted Kennedy 'minime'.

Hmmmm... I will take that as a Compliment, for I think Mister Kennedy was probably Best US President.

And why do you think my rhetoric, assertions and conclusions have not changed?

Could it be, that some people have really started to think otherwise, because of that?



Change comes with a price and does not happen over night or in a day, a week, or in years, be it war or revolution, correct, Souljah? Your, and/with others, attempts to gauge success or failure are quite mystifying. Apprently with the crowd you hang with, the glass is always half-empty. Interesting, no?

Oh yea, I agree that Change will Come.

But it wont be the Change you Expect.

But Seriously, you are still a Belive that War on Terror is something Good and someting that is Improving our way of Life and something that is worth saving for our Future?

Why does not this alleged War on Terror spread then to suffering nations of Africa, where there is a Genocide happening for decades, with really Nobody doing Anything?

Why is War on Terror limited to Middle Eastern Area?

Are ALL Terrorists Muslims or Arabs?

Thats like saying THE JEWS DID IT - and we know know who used that phrase lots of times.

Dont you find all this Fighting for NOTHING a bit Tiring?

Dont you think Humanity would be better off, if they would spend 1 Trillion dollars on something else then Weapons?

Where is the Humanity when talking about Saving Lives - like lives of hungry and sick Children?

Thats not on the Priority List, correct?

Two World Wars, and We still Dont Learn.

How many People need to DIE in order to Realise that War is Good for only one guy:

The Undertaker.



[edit on 24/6/05 by Souljah]



posted on Jun, 24 2005 @ 12:57 PM
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has any one heard of Goerge Galloway.

The man makes Bush piss in his own pants,

whats your opinion on Goerge Galloway.

[edit on 24-6-2005 by Interseptor]



posted on Jun, 24 2005 @ 01:19 PM
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*sigh*

War is war, my friends.

You can tell me that I have never seen war or what not, but the truth is, I have. Now, with that being said, all I can say is this:

In world war I, tens of millions died in a war that meant nothing. That war iwas the most senseless war in modern history.
In world war II, tens of millions died in a war that did mean something. It had to be waged. I believe 20 million German people died, not all of whom were responsible for the Nazi regime.
In Vietnam, thousands of people perished in a war that many people saw as unjust.
In the gulf war, not many died. But a country was liberated from oppression.
In Operation Iraqi Freedom, thousands have died. Some see this as not needed, but some see it as necessary.

The point is, war is war. Whether it is just or not, people die. Guess what? The world does go on. It is not the end of the world if a person dies. I hate to burst the leftist pacifist bubble, but war is hell. They don't call it war because it is some picnic in the park.

I have seen my own friends die from the weaponry that people die from still today, and the lesson learned is, life goes on. Things happen, some good and some bad will come out of what is going on in our lives right now. Yet, you see my friends that why do you all (those who oppose the war) type from behind your computers rather than get out of your house or mom's basement and do something about it. Go petition. Go to your government. Be heard.

-wD



posted on Jun, 24 2005 @ 01:23 PM
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"Hmmmm... I will take that as a Compliment, for I think Mister Kennedy was probably Best US President. - SoulJah"

Hey souljah, buddy, I take it you aren't in the U.S., right?

Ted Kennedy is a Senator, a left wing, wife-beating, ignorant senator lol.

John F. Kennedy was the President...

lol..
-wD



posted on Jun, 24 2005 @ 04:00 PM
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WEBDevil:

True, war is war, and that is why it should be avioded, and not rushed head long into it for no reasons - which is exactly why the US is in Iraq right?

In a fight both sides get hit, that is something I see very little regconition from those that seem to hold this pro-Iraq stance. They don't see that all this they are doing in another land, will always come back to them. Just because people and countries find themself's in places of power, and feel that that because of that position they are in control. Thick.

What will they do when people realize that everything in this world exists because of pairs, because of polar opposites? Light can not be unless there is dark. Right has no meaning without left. Up is irrelevent without a down. So to, power doesn't, cannot, exist without someone willingly accepting a submissive role. Once those that have been in the submissive role, refuse to accept it, or play by that game, power ceases - the same way that light ceases without any darkness.

This is as true for domestic policy as it is in Iraq/ Remember the lessons of Ghandi, may he be in peace, and there is the answer for the American ego.



posted on Jun, 24 2005 @ 11:29 PM
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Originally posted by Passer By
WEBDevil:

True, war is war, and that is why it should be avioded, and not rushed head long into it for no reasons - which is exactly why the US is in Iraq right?

In a fight both sides get hit, that is something I see very little regconition from those that seem to hold this pro-Iraq stance. They don't see that all this they are doing in another land, will always come back to them. Just because people and countries find themself's in places of power, and feel that that because of that position they are in control. Thick.

What will they do when people realize that everything in this world exists because of pairs, because of polar opposites? Light can not be unless there is dark. Right has no meaning without left. Up is irrelevent without a down. So to, power doesn't, cannot, exist without someone willingly accepting a submissive role. Once those that have been in the submissive role, refuse to accept it, or play by that game, power ceases - the same way that light ceases without any darkness.

This is as true for domestic policy as it is in Iraq/ Remember the lessons of Ghandi, may he be in peace, and there is the answer for the American ego.



Are you a Darwin'st or what you want people that arent even capable to fight US troops on there borders to fight them out there country, that theory you put down reflects on how slavery was done on earth as one power ruler he is allowed to slave those who arrent. No thanks. and Ghandi what does he have to do with IRAQ he was born in south Africa and was a politician in India. He had believed in facism what was going on in Germany at that time.

[edit on 24-6-2005 by Interseptor]



posted on Jun, 24 2005 @ 11:50 PM
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INTER:

I beleive in science if that is what you mean about a Darwin'ist.

Power needs someone to serve, without someone to serve, there can be no power.

I don't begrudge any solider that does what he/she has to do to get an invading army off their land, until they arbitrary kill innocents. Then there is a problem for me.

As Ghandi said to a reporter once that asked him if his method would work against the likes of Hitler, he responded "It wouldn't look like it at first, many people will be killed and hurt. But aren't many people being killed and hurt already?"

Maybe it is time we all grew up and looked past violence as a means to an end? Just my opinion, but I am happy to say I am in good company.




posted on Jun, 25 2005 @ 12:04 AM
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Its been a short amount of time. In this time, a lot fewer deaths have occured than did in other conflicts. American dead is "far beyond" 1,700? That was nothing on D-Day.

Oh, but you're right. Let's just pull out. No use wasting money rebuilding the country, like we did in Japan and Germany, just leave them. Yeah, I know, the government isn't on its feet properly and we'd be leaving it to be savaged by those who are already coming over the borders to tear it to pieces, but hey, why bother?
Because, if we don't bother, the country will fall again, the people will suffer with no hope, and the enemy will see that we are gutless cowards who can't finish a difficult task.

This microwave generation has no patience for the long haul, I see.



posted on Jun, 25 2005 @ 05:13 AM
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Originally posted by WeBDeviL
Hey souljah, buddy, I take it you aren't in the U.S., right?

Ted Kennedy is a Senator, a left wing, wife-beating, ignorant senator lol.

Thank You for the Explanation.

No I am not from the US.

Now I Understand why dear mister Seekerof used him to Compare.

Got all 3 points wrong:

- I am not Leftwing

- I am not a Wife Beater

- I am not Ignorant, what more a Sentaor.

Thanks dear mister Moderator for such a Great Label.

And I dont like Politicians.

Not One.

Left.

Right.



posted on Jun, 25 2005 @ 05:34 AM
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"War is a quarrel between two thieves too cowardly to fight their own battle; therefore they take boys from one village and another village, stick them into uniforms, equip them with guns, and let them loose like wild beasts against each other."

Yep - Thats what War is.

And there are Always these Two Cowards, dictating the People who is wrong and who is right, and why they have to Fight.

Well, who are they to Judge the Human Kind, and have the Right to say - he is Wrong and I am not?

Is he God or Something?

"War is the statesman's game, the priest's delight, The lawyer's jest, the hired assassin's trade."

In the Case of Iraq - ofcourse the US Troop cant pull out now, and that was not the intention of this intervention. The intention was to put a PERMANENT Military Presence in this Area, and so far all the Insurgency and Unstability of this Region is helping just that.

More Violence - More Troops!

More Troops - More Military Budget!

More Military Budget - More Money for Military Corporations.

So, who wins who looses is pretty much simple.

Again the Innocent Suffer and the Guilty Survive and also make lots of Money.

So how is that called Justice?

"In all wars the object is to protect or to seize money, property and power, and there will always be wars so long as Capital rules and oppresses people."

So, back to the topic:

What Progress?

What Peace?

What Stability?

What Democracy?

What Liberty?

In Iraq? Where?



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