Can we finally settle this Chemtrail thing?

Alright.

I am personally slightly tired of all of this chemtrail stuff. So I propse that ATS, as a group, finally settle the issue. Now, as far as I understand it, the gist of it is that nefarious and possibly governmental agencies are spraying the world full of equally nefarious chemicals from airplanes (commercial and millitary). The evidence for this are large and spooky clouds in the sky that emerge from airplanes. Despite the quite thourough debunking of these that has occured (I particularily recall Off_The_Street's excellent 6 reasons chemtrails don't exist) But I am a skeptic too. Let's say that there is a chance, no matter how remote, that this is real. In that case, it should be possible to recover particulate matter, gasses, ice crystals, &c. from these clouds. And submit it to rigourous analysis.

So I am launching a challenge to the ATS community. Surely there are people here who are so convinced of the existence of chemtrails, or tired of hearing of them, that they are willing to collect some of these samples, from wherever (and hopefully from many places). I would do so myself I weren't an utterly broke college student *sigh*. If that is so, then I propose that we conduct a study. A real, scientfic study. I have access to labs, however, and am willing to do the chemical analysis. I am prepared to go to whatever lengths it takes to convicne the other side that this is fair and balanced. Follow me around to prove I'm not a disinfo agent, whatever.

But I will not be convinced that the chemtrails are anything other than a hoax unless I or anyone else can find concrete proof that there is something in those clouds other than water vapor, the products of combustion, and typical atmospheric pollutants.

So, what do you say, chemtrailers? Any of you willing to back up your claims and subject them to real science and facts?

***DISCLAIMER: That's right, I don't belive in them. But I am openly declaring my bias. I do belive, however, that it is entirely possible to conduct a fair and balanced study***

[edit on 21-6-2005 by John bull 1]

Originally posted by SilentFrog
... that it is entirely possible to conduct a fair and balanced study***

Funny, because it's not. The promotors of the chemtrail notion seem to lack an understanding of what a "fair a balanced study" entails. All that will be put forth will be the same that has already been posted, which is the typical broken record of crap.

Sure we can settle this chemtrail thing - all the rain explains it. Altering the weather was and is the name of the game. Do you think?

Dallas

I know this won't change anybodys mind. On a recent return flight from Florida to new Mexico; as we were "deplaneing" I asked the pilot/co-pilot what are all those contrails that criss-cross the sky. His reply "weather modification" Maybe he was being patronizing, maybe truthful, maybe being a drama queen; I couldn't tell. Like I said, I know this won't change anybodys mind.

INMO if these contrails were just water vapor they would dissapaite and evaporate. Over Albuquerque, they seem to concentrate and turn into cloud banks that sometimes produce yellow and light blue "sun dogs". If the content of the contrails was simple water vapor wouldnt it produce "rainbows". Just a thought.

I read off-the-streets 6 count em 6 reasons. A well thought out piece to be sure but he didn't address the above paragraph to my satisfaction.

The thing that puzzels me the most; Around the holidays when air traffic is highest, very few contrails. Tonite heavy contrails and overcast.

Also sometimes the contrails are in a precice grid pattern almost like they're saying "look what we can do" Looks kinda cool.

Of course water vapor can create rainbows... what do you think other rainbows are made out of? Clouds are made of ice crystals, and heck, they seem to stick around for a long time.
It would make sense for them to be in grid patterns... since that's how aircraft fly! There are minimum distances they have to keep from each other... and it's not necessarily a grid, the contrails could have been kilometers apart in altitude.

Oh well. No one stepping up to the plate with real, testable evidence? No air samples showing Scary Chemicals in the air?

I didn't really expect any different. What are you guys, afraid? Deny ignorance, remember that?


Fine. Sometime this week I'll try to take a spectroscope out and look at the specta of a contrail. Results TBA.

And how exactly are you going to get accurate samples from the ground?

I don't really see the point in spending all sorts of money sampling plane exhausts. I don't believe in Father Christmas but I don't feel the need to organise a party to go to Lapland to prove beyond doubt that he doesn't exist. Anyway such an expidition still couldn't prove to a believer (try a 5 year old child) that he didn't exist, as he could have been hiding in his secret underground base or have turned himself invisible or whatever.

A belief in chemtrails is just that, a belief. It is not based on evidence, therefore no amount of evidence will convince the believers they are wrong. If you sampled a hundred contrails they would just say "yes, but you sampled the wrong ones" or that "the government controls the labs where they were the samples were tested". It wouldn't get you anywhere.

Anyway there is nothing to "settle": most of the world's population aren't even aware of the concept of "chemtrails". The number that are must number in the thousands and the number that actually believe in them must number in the hundreds. I just tried explaining the concept to 5 people at work, not only had they never heard of it, they didn't actually believe that some people think that "chemtrails" exist until I showed them a few insane websites. Then they just laughed a lot.

Quite a lot more people believe in the tooth fairy and Father Christmas (alright most of them are children, but chemtrail believers show more gullibilty than most children).

here's some evidence

www.theforbiddenknowledge.com...

here are some photos
www.aliendave.com...
www.stanley2002.org...
www.survivalistskills.com...
home.att.net...
www.chemtrails.at...
thebiggestsecretpict.online.fr...
www.conspiration.cc...
www.rense.com...


here are some questions
images.google.com...://members.shaw.ca/Chemtrails/111.jpg&imgrefurl=http://members.shaw.ca/Chemtrails/HardQuestions.htm&h=408&w =654&sz=124&tbnid=LSvVg4fAcUEJ:&tbnh=84&tbnw=136&hl=en&start=63&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dchemtrail%26start%3D60%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26safe%3Doff%26sa%3DN

www.abovetopsecret.com...


Combine that with what Mr Whaaa said below...

I know this won't change anybodys mind. On a recent return flight from Florida to new Mexico; as we were "deplaneing" I asked the pilot/co-pilot what are all those contrails that criss-cross the sky. His reply "weather modification" Maybe he was being patronizing, maybe truthful, maybe being a drama queen; I couldn't tell. Like I said, I know this won't change anybodys mind.

So basically YES WE CAN CLOSE THIS SUBJECT NOW... its true.. and more then enough evidence is in the air and online now to provide you with what you should need to believe that THIS IS HAPPENING.


Like what else DO YOU NEED?


-VMX

For some interesting "sample analysis"

I suggest that you check out Cliff Carnicom's site

carnicom.com...

Click on the Sample and analyis menu.

WARNING: Spew hazard! Do not drink liquids when reading those. I will not be held responsible for any damage to monitors or keyboards.

[edit on 24-6-2005 by HowardRoark]

Originally posted by HowardRoark
For some interesting "sample analysis"

I suggest that you check out Cliff Carnicom's site

carnicom.com...

Click on the Sample and analyis menu.

WARNING: Spew hazard! Do not drink liquids when reading those. I will not be held responsible for any damage to monitors or keyboards.

[edit on 24-6-2005 by HowardRoark]

Oh man... WHERE do they come from Howard?! WHERE?!

m...

Ok everyone, lets just say that some of the contrails do expand in the air due to humidity, but there is also a such thing as chemtrails. Ive seen enough evidence to say that there are chemtrails, but not every contrail that expands is a chemtrail. If you see chemtrails coming off the whole wing of an aircraft (see my above links) or irregular flight patterns, then they are most likely chemtrails.

Originally posted by BigPimpin
If you see chemtrails coming off the whole wing of an aircraft (see my above links) - - - - then they are most likely chemtrails.

No, if you see contrails coming off the wing, you are looking at an example of an aerodynamic contrail. If you can't understand the science behind this simple phenomena, then I suggest you study up a bit on what makes an airplane fly and the ideal gas law.

[edit on 24-6-2005 by HowardRoark]

Originally posted by HowardRoark
No, if you see contrails coming off the wing, you are looking at an example of an aerodynamic contrail.

Since when did aerodynamic contrails from trailing edges last for hours and spread out forming clouds?
If you can't understand the science behind this simple phenomena, then I suggest you study up a bit on what makes an airplane fly and the ideal gas law.

Aerodynamic contrails form by the momen-tary reduction of air pressure in the airfoil vortex. If you have ever seen the Navy Blue Angles or the Air Force Thunderbirds during a low-level demonstration, then you have probably noticed these contrails trailing the wing tips, especially during high-speed turns. These contrails appear as the vortex creates a partial vacuum, lowering the air pressure sufficiently to bring it to satura-tion. They dissipate rapidly as the pressure in the vortex returns to normal behind the aircraft. We will not be concerned with this type of contrail.

www.tpub.com...

[edit on 24/6/2005 by ANOK]

That definition is fine for aerodynamic contrails that are comprised of water vapor. At higher altitudes, in when the air is supersaturated with respect to ice, once an ice crystal forms, it isn't going to go away, untill it either melts (difucult when the temperature is -40F, or sublimates. Ice won't sublimate when the air is supersaturated.

That's true Howard but it still don't explain con/chem trails at low altitude in the middle of summer that last for hours.

Contrail, especialy aerodynamic contrails, do not last for hours and turn into full blown clouds. Even if they do last, at the high altitude they are formed they are not that visible.

Originally posted by ANOK
That's true Howard but it still don't explain con/chem trails at low altitude in the middle of summer that last for hours.

I have yet to see a photo of a con/chemtrail at low altitude. Some people keep talking about it, but all the photos that get shown of 'chemtrails' all look to be at about the average airliner altitude. How low are we talking really?

Here is a photogragh of a low altitude chemtrail plane, notice the angle of the airplane.
www.mysteriousnewzealand.co.nz...

Here is a good one! it is supposedly over a well populated area.
www.planepictures.net...

jra It's realy hard to tell from a photo how high a chem/contrail is.

The chemtrails I witnessed I couldn't really tell you the altitude of, but they were way lower than the normal contrails you see at high altitude.

And I'll admit a lot of the pics you see on ATS are just contrails, but some aren't. It's hard to tell from a picture. You have to see them being done, then you would know for sure.

For example that second pic posted above is just a fuel dump...

[edit on 25/6/2005 by ANOK]

Originally posted by BigPimpin
Here is a photogragh of a low altitude chemtrail plane, notice the angle of the airplane.
www.mysteriousnewzealand.co.nz...

Our guess would be an altitude of no more than 20,000 feet (6000 metres).

And they base that guess off the fact that they can get such a nice zoom on the photo? ..........
Clear undeniable proof alright. Yeah.

So I guess there is no possible avenue of thought than to conclude there are giant structures and canals on Mars, right?

These chemtrailists must be so upset about the extra chemicals they think theyre breathing, because you've gotta seriously be on something to come up with some of these conclusions.