Dirty bomb" suspect Jose Padilla

Dirty bomb" suspect Jose Padilla
What should the right thing for America be? He is an American citizen. I think he’s a dirty S.O.B but I think to be fair he should have a speedy trial and a fair hearing. That is the way Americans do things. Right?

Difficult to say, by becoming a terrorist and working for a foreign army its arguable that he gave up his citizenship, but that woudl be predicated on him actually being guilty. Obviously, a case like this can't be handled in regular courts and by regular civilian means, but just as obviously he can't just be thrown away like a foreign detainee. Very tricky situation, I certianly don't have any answer.

Hmm.

When a US Born Citizen of no heritage to the Forces they are going to fight for. I believe that is the worst kind of crime possible. Sure they have Treason, and the punishment for that is Death. But the overall thought of it. Who, in their right mind would wish to betray their country? If there side loses the war the person- assuming they are not dead- Will be taken away and be placed under the Microscope of the entire country. They will have the worst kind of shame in now knowing the almost everysingle being in your country now hates you.

The actual thought, the thought of betraying one's country. Why would they want to in the first place? If they are caught they are a war hero, they are not humiliated, they are Honored! They go to fight for the cause that they think is a better side to fight for, even if it is a weak struggle. I'd, above all like to know why they want to fight their country. What possible reason could they have against it? It reminds me of people protesting the military. That is the dumbest place to protest at. You should know why, but in case you don't it's because The Military is the one that is securing your right to Protest. Without them you'd be under the Public Spectrum.

I'll say it again and again. What goes through their head? What makes them want to attack their native country? What makes it so that they have that twisted thought inside their minds? What part of them decides that? We probably already know, but if we don't, I hope to soon learn why.

From everything I can see, he is little more than a deluded idiot who lacked any ability whatsoever to carry out his plans.

I am not sure if he should be in prison, or just a mental institution.

Originally posted by AeroQuake
It reminds me of people protesting the military. That is the dumbest place to protest at. You should know why, but in case you don't it's because The Military is the one that is securing your right to Protest. Without them you'd be under the Public Spectrum.

Without really wanting to get into this within this thread, I am just going to say that it is possible to protest the military without being hypocritical for the reasons you presented. The military can only defend our right to protest if it is under attack, and attacking a country that posed no threat to our liberties (read liberty, not security...and i don't really even believe that) is certainly something I can protest. Attacking Iraq does NOT defend my right to protest, defending America from a communist invasion would be defending my right to protest.

See the difference?

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.


5th Amendment to U.S. Constitution

Jose Padilla has yet to be charged with anything, and has been in custody since JUNE 9, 2002. He has no access to a lawyer.

He has been ACCUSED of being a terrorist, there has been no credible evidence given in a court of law (just the media).

Has anyone ever heard of DUE PROCESS? It's a cornerstone of the US legal system?

Let's hope nobody falsely accuses you of plotting a terrorist attack, huh? You can kiss your so-called freedoms goodbye and say hello to the inside of a military brig for 3 YEARS!!!!

Pathetic. Makes me laugh when I hear people squawk about how the US is the Land of the Free.

jako




[edit on 14-6-2005 by Jakomo]

Originally posted by Jakomo
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.


5th Amendment to U.S. Constitution

Jose Padilla has yet to be charged with anything, and has been in custody since JUNE 9, 2002. He has no access to a lawyer.

He has been ACCUSED of being a terrorist, there has been no credible evidence given in a court of law (just the media).

Has anyone ever heard of DUE PROCESS? It's a cornerstone of the US legal system?

Let's hope nobody falsely accuses you of plotting a terrorist attack, huh? You can kiss your so-called freedoms goodbye and say hello to the inside of a military brig for 3 YEARS!!!!

Pathetic. Makes me laugh when I hear people squawk about how the US is the Land of the Free.

jako




[edit on 14-6-2005 by Jakomo]

Padilla's Lawyers had wanted to jump over the appeals court and have the Supreme Court intervene.

"Delay increases the chance that Padilla could be faced with an unconstitutionally coerced choice _ for example, whether to plead guilty to a crime or to give up other rights in order to avoid further months of detention as an enemy combatant," his Lawyers told justices in a filing.
source:
www.washingtonpost.com...

I agree he should have due process. but what proof due you have that anyone has accused him Falsely. they are still going through a legal process. do you have info that we all have not seen?

Finnmann:

I agree he should have due process. but what proof due you have that anyone has accused him Falsely. they are still going through a legal process. do you have info that we all have not seen?

NOBODY has any exta info because the US government stonewalls all attempts.

Innocent until proven guilty. There's no amendments to that particular law... Padilla was arrested on "suspicion of a crime" which SHOULD place him under the jurisdiction of the ordinary criminal justice system.

So now, if he can continue to be held, your own government could potentially hold any criminal suspect who they just ACCUSE of cooperatiing with an alleged terrorist group in military custody for an indefinite period, with none of the usual safeguards in the criminal system.


The term "enemy combatant" creates one of the WORST potential constitutional crises that your country has ever faced. It's nothing but a total denial of the fundamental principle of "inalienable human rights". By giving your President the power to determine who is entitled to the benefits of citizenship, you're becoming a police state.

Mark Norton has written some AWESOME articles about this, take a gander.


www.marcnorton.us...

Did you actually read what you posted? Here, I'll except the part that you shoot yourself in the foot with...

except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger;

It is a time of war.

Originally posted by Jakomo
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.


5th Amendment to U.S. Constitution

Jose Padilla has yet to be charged with anything, and has been in custody since JUNE 9, 2002. He has no access to a lawyer.

He has been ACCUSED of being a terrorist, there has been no credible evidence given in a court of law (just the media).

Has anyone ever heard of DUE PROCESS? It's a cornerstone of the US legal system?

Let's hope nobody falsely accuses you of plotting a terrorist attack, huh? You can kiss your so-called freedoms goodbye and say hello to the inside of a military brig for 3 YEARS!!!!

Pathetic. Makes me laugh when I hear people squawk about how the US is the Land of the Free.

jako

[edit on 14-6-2005 by Jakomo]

Marid Auran:

Did you actually read what you posted? Here, I'll except the part that you shoot yourself in the foot with...

except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger;

It is a time of war.

? Oh, right! I totally forgot! It's a War on Terror, and there is no end in sight, so it's pretty much a perpetual state of war.

Practice your Sieg Hiels, sheep.

EVERY government in history that wanted to control its' population used "Wartime Measures" as a way to increase control over their population.

WE'RE AT WAR SO WE GOTTA TAKE TOUGH MEASURES! We're going to sacrifice some of YOUR freedoms, but it's for your own good! It's to protect you from all those evil people out there who want to kill you and rape your women!

Baaaa.


Tell me, when did Bush officially declare that the United States was at War with its' own people? I remember when he declared War on Iraq, but he never said "I declare a War on Terror!". Unless of course you have a nice link. Something that explains how the suspension of YOUR rights is one of the casualties that is necessary to fight this war.

Baaaa.




jako

Nice. Thanks for the personal attack, I appreciate it. It's a sure sign that you don't have a clue what you are talking about and aren't really interested in what anyone else thinks, you have your mind made up.

Sorry for taking you seriously.

Madrid Auran: ? How was it a personal attack?

I wrote:

Practice your Sieg Heils, sheep.

Webster's Definition #2

2 a : a timid defenseless creature b : a timid docile person; especially : one easily influenced or led

Bam. Better to dismiss me than actually have to think any of these things through, huh?

Better luck next time.


jako


[edit on 14-6-2005 by Jakomo]

Personal attack: yes you were implying we are like the Nazi's in world war two

Sieg Heil! or "Hail to Victory" (lit., Sieg "victory" Heil "welfare") was a common Nazi
"National Socialism" redirects here. For alternate meanings, see National Socialism (disambiguation).
Nazism (abbreviated from the German: Nationalsozialismus, "National Socialism") or also called Hitlerism is a type of fascist/totalitarian ideology. The term is most often used in connection with the dictatorship of Nazi Germany from 1933 to 1945 (the "Third Reich"). This ideology was held by the National Socialist German Workers Party (
..... Click the link for more information. chant at rallies, especially after the speeches of Adolf Hitler
Adolf Hitler (April 20, 1889 – April 30, 1945, standard German pronunciation [ˈaː.dɔlf ˈhɪt.ləɐ] in the IPA) was the Führer (leader) of the National Socialist German Workers Party (Nazi Party) and of Nazi Germany from 1933 to 1945. In that capacity he was Chancellor of Germany, head of government, and head of state, an absolute dictator.
..... Click the link for more information. . Usually the words would be repeated three times to form the chant "Sieg...Heil! Sieg...Heil! Sieg...Heil!"

Originally posted by Jakomo
Madrid Auran: ? How was it a personal attack?

I wrote:

Practice your Sieg Heils, sheep.

Webster's Definition #2

2 a : a timid defenseless creature b : a timid docile person; especially : one easily influenced or led

Bam. Better to dismiss me than actually have to think any of these things through, huh?

Better luck next time.


jako

Yeah that was a personal attack and you have sunk to a new low jako. Calling "Madrid a "sheep" is way outta line, but I guess thats your nature. Its no wonder so many good threads end up in flames....

Back on topic, this Padilla guy (correct me if Im wrong) was a gang banger who converted to islam in prison. Now personally I think Islam needs to be banned in American prisons and that this POS deserves a quick trial and a quick death.

Maximu§

thanks for going back to topic of post

Maximus:

Now personally I think Islam needs to be banned in American prisons and that this POS deserves a quick trial and a quick death.

Always good to have your well-thought-out, intellectual, logical approach to things, Maximus.

finnman:

Personal attack: yes you were implying we are like the Nazi's in world war two

Exactly correct. I was implying that with your belief that your country can do no wrong, while it is descending into a totalitarian state, is very much like what happened in Germany in the 1930's. Mindless, blind nationalism.

It's no insult, it's the truth. I wasn't implying you were a Nazi personally, but I am stating that if you want to continue to live in the U.S. you should practice your Nazi salutes because your nation is becoming fascist.

I don't see this as an insult, I see it as an insight into what is actually happening.

Jose Padilla, incarcerated for 3+ years illegally, would agree, I would imagine.


jako

People who say my liberties were not threat because security is not liberty.
Without security you cant have liberty.

Without really wanting to get into this within this thread, I am just going to say that it is possible to protest the military without being hypocritical for the reasons you presented. The military can only defend our right to protest if it is under attack,

So you want to wait until foreign ships start landing on our beaches or until enemy bombs fall on our cities to use our military?

"Those who are willing to sacrifice essential freedom for security deserve neither."

-Benjamin Franklin

Originally posted by Jakomo

"Those who are willing to sacrifice essential freedom for security deserve neither."

-Benjamin Franklin

"If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than
the animating contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your
counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May
your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were
our countrymen!"

--Samuel Adams

I can play the "quote the founding fathers" game too.

But back on to this excellent topic, Padilla chose sides in a war. His mission failed and he was captured as a result. It isn't the matter of a civilian crime that he is being held for. He is being held as a combatant. Just because his bomb didn't go off doesn't mean he didn't try to strike a blow in the war.



[edit on 14-6-2005 by Marid Audran]

I can play the "RELEVANTLY quote the founding father's game".

I was responding to the post above mine.

Your quote appears to be Mr Adams telling people to cherish freedom over wealth (which obviously is now mostly the opposite - see Bush taxcuts, see Bush educational reforms, see Bush social security reforms).

Just because his bomb didn't go off doesn't mean he didn't try to strike a blow in the war.

HE DIDN'T HAVE A BOMB! He was apparently PLANNING to build one.

Crimes of thought and crimes of intent are not crimes.

U.S. officials provided few details on Al Muhajir's alleged path from Chicago's gang culture to al-Qaeda, but their sketchy portrayal of him reflects the increasing threat they say is posed by the terror network's efforts to recruit Westerners. Officials said that after Al Muhajir's release in 1992 from a jail in Broward County, Fla., where he served 10 months for aggravated assault and weapons violations, he continued to live in South Florida, where his mother had moved from Chicago. A U.S. law enforcement official said Al Muhajir went to the Middle East in 1998, then lived in Egypt but traveled frequently to Pakistan and Afghanistan. Before his arrest, the official said, Al Muhajir had returned to the USA once or twice.


By Doug Mills, AP
FBI Director Robert Mueller: "Our principal interest is in preventing future terrorist attacks. This instance is an example of prevention."

A Defense Department official said Abu Zubaydah, a top al-Qaeda official in U.S. custody, led U.S. authorities to Al Muhajir — possibly to try to sow fear in the USA by showing that al-Qaeda had recruited an American. Al Muhajir met Zubaydah in Afghanistan last year and then traveled to Pakistan, where he studied how to assemble a radioactive bomb at an al-Qaeda safe house in Lahore, a senior U.S. law enforcement official said. Weeks later, Al Muhajir met with senior al-Qaeda leaders in Karachi.

The dirty bomb plot was in its initial stages and did not have a target, although Al Muhajir has "indicated some knowledge of the Washington, D.C., area," Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz said Monday. Intelligence sources said Chicago also might have been a potential target. A senior U.S. law enforcement official said part of the plot involved attacking hotels and gas stations with conventional explosives.

The dirty bomb "plot" in its' initial stages and did not have a target? Attacking hotels and gas stations?

Notice how all the sources are unnamed, and just called "senior U.S. law enforcement officials"? Set off any alarm bells for you?

j

[edit on 14-6-2005 by Jakomo]