Permenant Magnet motor

Very sly XL5, very sly. heee i love this thread, i dont know why exactly, but its.....the most fun thread i guess, in that we're all collaborating, people here and there are actually doing research, building things etc, infront of our eyes, well, computer screens.....

A gear and chain would be a good place to start actually. You know the whole concept of "if a large gear is connected to a small gear, the small gear will spin much faster".

Perhaps that could increase electricity generation, if the electrical generator itself (sat at the side of the PMM, large gear) has a small gear and thus spins faster, thus producing more electricity.

Oh and just so you know im only going to start construction (when i say construction, its only going to be the size of say.....a laserjet printer, perhaps 40cm x 30cm x 25cm, ok perhaps a little bigger, but i wont know until i start building it), as i was saying i wont be building anything until after xmas. It was presents for everyone, or PMM, so no competition.

Although it does give me time to fine tune the designs. I will need to make it so i can alter the angles of the magnets as well, which is a hell of a lot cheaper than making angled parts and finding out its wrong. Its all about the fine tuning. Optimium magnetic repulsion angle, optimum torque etc. That will be key in constructing a commercially viable model. If that is where it is wanted to go of course....

You think it would have to have a huge ATS logo on the side. LOL that would be soooo cool AND (for any mods) would be gooooddd publicityyyyy.

Dammit i just realised something plainly obvious. The magnets on the same ring will react with eachother. They will have to be isolated somehow as to only allow them to react with the opposite ring. So........perhaps aluminium separators, or graphite as it is diamagnetic.

Also......is anyone else actually attempting to build one beside me and i think postings and XL5......im interested

[edit on 1-12-2005 by Shadow88]

Originally posted by Frosty
There is no doubt that a magnet motor can be made.

And you came to this conclusion how?

Originally posted by Shadow88
Dammit i just realised something plainly obvious. The magnets on the same ring will react with eachother. They will have to be isolated somehow as to only allow them to react with the opposite ring. So........perhaps aluminium separators, or graphite as it is diamagnetic.

Also......is anyone else actually attempting to build one beside me and i think postings and XL5......im interested

[edit on 1-12-2005 by Shadow88]

I ran into a similar problem during my experimentation. Isolating the fields is key, and I ran into tons of problems as a result. Just didn't have the materials and tools to finish it conceptually.

BTW, don't know if I mentioned this, but I really like your 3d model. I found similar software. There is a machine shop that distributes its own 3d modeling software. YOu design what you want with their application, and it will tell you how much it will cost. I don't think you can add any special physical properties (such as magnetics) to the design though, and I haven't been able to get it to animate. You might be able to import from a program such as yours though.

So glad you and Bargaindan are keeping up with the work of this project. I had initially started with a bunch of experiments, but until I can get more equipment, it will have to wait.

-P

Originally posted by The Block

Originally posted by Frosty
There is no doubt that a magnet motor can be made.

And you came to this conclusion how?

I don't know, I figured magnetism, computer, harddrive? Maybe more machine than motor, meh. I am sure you can construct, or anyone, a motor which creates torque throgh a repulsion process or attraction process, but whether this would be an effecient device, meh.

Originally posted by The Block

Originally posted by Frosty
There is no doubt that a magnet motor can be made.

And you came to this conclusion how?

I might be the fact that there are hundreds of magnetic motors available for sale. Such as:

www.s2m.fr...
www.globalsources.com...

or some people who make specialist magnets for such motors:

www.hitachi-metals.co.jp...

here's some more info:

www.arnoldmagnetics.com...
www.4qd.co.uk...


Just checked, and my Dewalt cordless drill uses a permanent magnetic motor. However, despite being a nice bit of kit, Dewalt don't appear to have achieved over unity with it and I still have to plug it into the mains every few hours to re-charge. Which is rubbish if you ask me.

Obviously the Dewalt engineers haven't got a clue what they are doing and they should be collapsing the positronic wave interface of the quantum vacuum, or whatever.

FatherLukeDuke i realise you probably mean well but the motor you linked to and described is a normal motor. I know its called a PMM, but its poper name should be a magnetically-powered electrical generator.

Actually, Shadow, that literally implies a generator, not a motor... yes, regular electric motors are called PMM's, and that is because there are magnets in it... the secondary set of magnets are coil-driven so they can switch polarity to be able to spin the shaft and do work. Some motors don't use any permanent magnets at all, they use all coil magnets to repulse and attract eachother.... those motors are NOT called permanent magnet motors, but they are likewise a "normal" motor...

Technically, the motors should be called Electrically driven Permanent Magnet Motors.

Oh yeah, btw... I've been fidgetting around myself trying to seduce the angle of two magnets to be able to create enough inertia to get past the "hump" before repulsing eachother as well... I have another idea that may work, but I gotta get some gearing ratios worked out first... been driving me nuts If I get ANY kind of model to work, I'll post pics here for y'all

Hey thanks Earthscum. I'd be interested to know one way or another. I am getting motivated to try more stuff as well (stuff that doesn't involve complicated fabrication).

-P

Originally posted by Earthscum
Oh yeah, btw... I've been fidgetting around myself trying to seduce the angle of two magnets to be able to create enough inertia to get past the "hump" before repulsing eachother as well... I have another idea that may work, but I gotta get some gearing ratios worked out first... been driving me nuts

If I get ANY kind of model to work, I'll post pics here for y'all

So.......the name? are we at an agreement?

MDEG? MDG? Magnetically-driven - Electrical - Generator
MPG? Mag powered generator PMG? MPEG?

Sigh not that important its just one of those things that annoys me till its worked out......

Basically my point was that:

Motor => Consumes Electricity (in most cases)
Generator => Creates Electricity

Now... in this case we are trying to create motors, which may possibly DRIVE a generator... which seems to be the most likely goal, and the best use for any self-driven rotational device. You could possibly call it a generator if there were coils integrated into the motor to extract electricity as the motor turns... then it would be a coil-less magnetic driven electric generator, but for now we are just trying to create a motor that creates any kind of useable torque output... once we have that, we can make it better, more efficcient, and use a series of them to power a generator, and maybe later make a single unit "CLMDEG".

So, basically we should call it a motor until we can get any useable electrical output from it without any input other than magnetic energy.

And, btw... I don't care if the magnets only last a year at a specific output... it would be MUCH cheaper to replace the magnets once a year than to pay fuel costs and electrical costs for your home.

Note to Shadow88:

If I understand your pics it looks like you have 20magnets around the ring?

That is an even number which at least in my model didn't work well if both the inner and outer rings have the same quantity.Try think about one ring with 20 and an outer ring with 21 magnets.The two rings fight for superiority and will rotate more evenly.At least that is yhe way it worked for me.

I should have taken some pictures and downloaded them so you could see what I mean.

Remember about 1970 when a toy came out that used magnets?Maybe not,I have no idea of your age but I am sure some of the readers will remember.There was a triangular base with a tripod over it.

A magnet was hung on a pendulum from the center of the tripod over the base.You could put magnets anywhere you wanted on the base and cause the pendulum to swing in all sorts of directions.I set it up once and the pendulum swung for nearly three weeks before a neighbor borrowed it.

That is my operating concept for this particular model.A unit that will spin continuously simply by the magnets pepelling each other.Because of the magnet fields set up by the groupings,one set has to be at odds with the other or eventually the units fields will equalize and lock up.

Thats how mine works,but for each visionary out there,a different concept exists.The trick is to learn the secret of the lodestone.

Happy tinkering.....

bargaindan, good post... I actually remember that pendulum, even though I was born in '75... right along with the old glass clacker balls, lol...

I didn't think to mention it, but I've been tinkering with 3/7 as my two numbers... using 3 on the outside and 7 in as well as 7 out, 3 in... they seem to be 'mystical' numbers, so I figured there might be some correlation, and I've actually been getting better results with 3/7 than any other combo.

BTW, I picked 3/7 from kaballah. The tree of life has, imho, a fantastic portrayal of 3's and 7's... another number I was thinking of trying is 7/11, and not after the convenience store or from dice, but from the tree of life again.

Figured I'd throw that idea in for anyone else that wants to try it. I need more magnets before I can try out the 7/11.

Also, for anyone that likes to just build and not worry about making concept on computers first, Foamboard makes for a great working material. It is light and reduces rotational mass... then you can add mass where you need it. I like to draw up my cut template in Illustrator and print it out... then I use a spray adhesive and lay the paper on my foamboard and then cut it. Another cheap item I've found useful for pivot points and fulcrum points is simple clothes hanger wire and a bit of candle wax. Also, quite a bit of double-sided tape for joining edges... adheres quite well with the foam, doesn't melt it like exotic glues, but has tighter bond than cheap glues (paper glues). Makes putting together some idea a snap... quick and painless, and I don't waste hours upon hours just to try out a theory.

Originally posted by Earthscum
Figured I'd throw that idea in for anyone else that wants to try it. I need more magnets before I can try out the 7/11.

Also, for anyone that likes to just build and not worry about making concept on computers first, Foamboard makes for a great working material. It is light and reduces rotational mass... then you can add mass where you need it. I like to draw up my cut template in Illustrator and print it out... then I use a spray adhesive and lay the paper on my foamboard and then cut it. Another cheap item I've found useful for pivot points and fulcrum points is simple clothes hanger wire and a bit of candle wax. Also, quite a bit of double-sided tape for joining edges... adheres quite well with the foam, doesn't melt it like exotic glues, but has tighter bond than cheap glues (paper glues). Makes putting together some idea a snap... quick and painless, and I don't waste hours upon hours just to try out a theory.

This is great advice. I am curious to know what everyone was using in their construction. I took a blank CD and hot-glued magnets to it in whatever formation I thought would give me something useful. I then ripped the top off an old portable CD player (it was broken anyway) and just put the cd in so it could spin freely. Using this rudimentary mockup I tested several designs with an exciter magnet.

Not sure if I mentioned this in a previous post, but I tried lining up several rectangular magnets into a half-circle around the disk. I arranged each magnet so they were equally spaced, and pointed inward, but were angled at a 45 degree angle. If you've ever seen the fins on a the blower for a water-cooler, you can sorta picture it. Also if you have seen waht a minato motor looks like, it was kinda like that. The polarity pointing out had to be uniform, and I took a large strong exciter magnet, and was able to get it to spin . . . sorta. It did about 3 spins, and would get hung up.

There was a problem I discovered though, and I think it is related to something Shadow88 said earlier. In the above example I used a half-circle of magnets. I have tried a full-circle of magnets before, but something odd happens to the entire magnetic field. I didn't have anything to view the field, so I can't explain it, but basically it is as if its magnetic strength was immensely weakened. Here's the thing though . . . I made no effort to shield each of the magnets from the other. I wonder if I should have? What do yall think?

-P

[edit on 3-12-2005 by postings]

Originally posted by Earthscum
Technically, the motors should be called Electrically driven Permanent Magnet Motors.

Well they are all electric motors, so I don't think you need to mention the "electrically driven" bit. The point I was trying to make was that all these motors work on exactly the same principles as the ones you guys are building. That is carefully positioned magnets used to generate motion (torque). There is a pretty good explanation of how they work here:

electronics.howstuffworks.com...

Oh yeah, btw... I've been fidgetting around myself trying to seduce the angle of two magnets to be able to create enough inertia to get past the "hump" before repulsing eachother as well...

You can't, it's impossible I'm afraid. Like the motors I linked to you will have to provide some energy to the device to achieve this. They all use an electrical current to flip the polarity of the an electromagnet over and get past the "hump" you talk about. The energy you put in is always more than what you get out.

Just like a ball on top of a hill, your device will have some potential energy when the magnets are lined up correctly. You can let go of the ball (or the magnets) but when it reaches the bottom of the hill (the "hump") you need to carry it back up to get it to roll back down again, ie put some energy into it. The same principles apply to your device.

This isn't just theoretical physics telling you it's impossible though; people have been building magnet based motors since 1821 and nobody has ever managed to get the position of the magnets just so so that they will keep generating motion with no electrical input. These guys claim 95% efficiency for their motor: www.eere.energy.gov...

If you can beat that you can probably make a lot of money with your device. If you can get 101% efficiency you will become the richest people on the planet.

Ok now that weve established that many people dont believe it will work effectively, or work at all, or whatever, can we from here on not have any more posts that simply slow down the thread (stated above), but rather put the skepticism aside. I know its EXTREMELY hard for some to do this But it will be far more constructive in the long run for everyone, even the skeptics, to think of ways it could work.

Even if the skeptics are right, sometimes theyre not and we'll get where we want to be (or fail) faster if we work on the goal, not pick at it. But im not saying dont be analytical, oh no, just cut down on the pessimism a little.

Did a little more fiddling this weekend, and sorta observed some stuff. I took apart a motor, and noticed that the magnet inside was a ring magnet. Wondering what the fields were looking like, I took a magnet and ran it along the inside of the ring so that one side of it was always facing towards the ring. I noticed some differences in pull and push, and didn't really think more of it. Well just for the heck of it, I took a metal pin (the same one that served as the drive-shaft originally) and ran it along the inside, and found it odd, that it was attracted to the entire inside wall of the ring except for a certain spot. In that spot it SEEMED to be repelled! Hopefully I am describing this correctly. If that is truly what is going on, and if it is repeatable I haven't really thought out how that can be useful, but I thought I would at least mention it.

Also, I tried gluing two rectangular magnets together face to face, so that their north to north. The idea there being that it will repell away magnets from any direction at that point. That obviously didn't work because then the sides of that glued magnet pair acquired a different polarity.

-P

I vividly remember being told that when same poles were forcebly connected (aka pushed together) for a while that they lose magnicity.

It happened after i took out a box of magnets at college(the old ones painted red and blue), they had all been stacked the same colour ends, not blue, red, blue, red etc as they should have been.

After being stored like that for only a short time they were basically worthless as all the magnetic force was diminished.

Sounds like some good experimenting going on.

I have some basic designs down but haven't decided yet what I will probably use.Most of that will depend on what Kind of magnets I can afford to by.I have a pile of odds and ends hanging around but I do not believe it will be profitable to go with any odd assortment.

For use as valid research the best way to go is with a consistent and measurable component. I tried some bar magnets on the same set up I threw together a couple of weeks ago and had some good results,but I did not have a sufficient quantity to do what I wanted to.

It is interesting to read some of the posts by 'naysayers'.Imagine where we would be if Thomas Edison paid attention to his critics.Or Albert Einstein.Or Davinci and any number of other visionary experimenters.

Don't know about anyone else,but I for one am glad there are people who are willing to try the impossible.

Originally posted by bargaindan
It is interesting to read some of the posts by 'naysayers'.Imagine where we would be if Thomas Edison paid attention to his critics.Or Albert Einstein.Or Davinci and any number of other visionary experimenters.

Cooraborate your claims with some sort of verifyable proof.

Magnets are losing their power because they do not stay magnetized forever. Eventually they can/will fade. Simply taking these magnets out of the applied field will do the trick.