Permenant Magnet motor

If I can make a magnet on a roller roll across the room with only a fraction of the energy it should take , then we are at least talking about using permanent magnets as energy storage devises.

There could be unlimited uses for a device like this in maglev for instance, even if you are losing energy at some point you are saving tons at the same time if you can use PM's to work towards linear motion as I have done.


[edit on 15-12-2005 by lost_shaman]

Originally posted by lost_shaman
If I can make a magnet on a roller roll across the room with only a fraction of the energy it should take , then we are at least talking about using permanent magnets as energy storage devises.

There could be unlimited uses for a device like this in maglev for instance, even if you are losing energy at some point you are saving tons at the same time if you can use PM's to work towards linear motion as I have done.

[edit on 15-12-2005 by lost_shaman]

What did you do? Kick the magnet? Hit it with a bat? Roll it out of your hand? What is a roller? Did it roll off or continue to roll on the roller?
How much energy should it take?
Why does any of this mean we can use PM as an energy device? Would it be effecient? How would it work?
The human body loses energy but also saves energy at the same time and so do other mechanical devices, what separates PM from the rest?

Frosty ,

If you look back through my last few posts on this thread you'll see I explained explicitly that I have used a magnet as an "axis" between two wheels and "stator" magnets to achieve repeating forward motion. (Although I apparently haven't achieved a net gain in energy )

I won't explain it again.

[edit on 15-12-2005 by Shadow88]

Originally posted by lost_shaman
If I can make a magnet on a roller roll across the room with only a fraction of the energy it should take , then we are at least talking about using permanent magnets as energy storage devises.

Magnets only contain a tiny amount of energy and would not make practical batteries. Your system does not use any of this energy anyway, but relies purely on the potential energy it posses at the start.

You said earlier:

If I start the refrigerator magnet off at an offset angle it will flip causing it to roll forward past all the 4 larger magnets, when they are correctly positioned.

Do you realise that when you place the magnet at an "offset angle" you are providing the potential energy for the system? This potential energy is obviously enough to take it past 4 magnets, but do you know what the limit is? Eventually all the potential energy will be lost to friction and the refrigerator magnet will just stop moving. This might be 5, 6 or 10 or the larger magnets, I don't know, but I do know that it will stop - 100% positive. If your system works as you say it does then you should be able to put the larger magnets in a loop and the fridge magnet will never stop moving. Give it a go.

In an (impossible) frictionless environment it would run indefinitely, however you would not be able to extract any energy from it without stopping it.

There could be unlimited uses for a device like this in maglev for instance, even if you are losing energy at some point you are saving tons at the same time if you can use PM's to work towards linear motion as I have done.

One question: if this is as easy as you say it is, how come people like the ones who designed and built the maglev haven't thought of it? These are very smart engineers and designers who spend decades working with eletromagnetism, motors and motion. They will have studied the subject in enormous depth, and spend 1000s of hours pouring over designs, prototypes, computer models and real life trains. How come not one of them has ever gone "hey guys look: we only have to line the magnets up right and the train will keep running for ever with no power supply". Two distinct possibilities spring to mind:

1 They are all very dumb and you are very smart
2 It is physically impossible

Hmm.....

Here's the thing . . . If that works, it should work on a bigger scale too . . . For instance, suppose you had two magnet rollers? three? four? They'd have to be properly spaced of course. Then hook all of those rollers up to a track much like tanks use. Do you see where I am going? I am sure you have thought of that though.

-P

Originally posted by lost_shaman
If I can make a magnet on a roller roll across the room with only a fraction of the energy it should take , then we are at least talking about using permanent magnets as energy storage devises.

There could be unlimited uses for a device like this in maglev for instance, even if you are losing energy at some point you are saving tons at the same time if you can use PM's to work towards linear motion as I have done.


[edit on 15-12-2005 by lost_shaman]

Originally posted by FatherLukeDuke
One question: if this is as easy as you say it is, how come people like the ones who designed and built the maglev haven't thought of it? These are very smart engineers and designers who spend decades working with eletromagnetism, motors and motion. They will have studied the subject in enormous depth, and spend 1000s of hours pouring over designs, prototypes, computer models and real life trains. How come not one of them has ever gone "hey guys look: we only have to line the magnets up right and the train will keep running for ever with no power supply". Two distinct possibilities spring to mind:

1 They are all very dumb and you are very smart
2 It is physically impossible

Hmm.....

First of all, what in sam-hill does "puz" mean? I know I am exposing my ignorance, but I guess that was a trend that passed me by.

Anyway, to answer your fair question, I have a few of my own. What would happen if a doctor all of a sudden started making the claim that flue shots are bad for you? How do you think that would affect her relationship with her close colegues? Do you think they'd want to associate themselves with her after that?
So lets assume that the good doctor cared what her colegues thought of her. Don't you think she'd have second thoughts about it? Not even that though, wouldn't you think she has enough things to do on a daily basis than have to chase down concepts that people would look down on her for anyway?
Isn't there incentive for the establishment to propetuate a culture of anti-quackery in order to maintain it's legitimacy? What I am getting at here is that those engineers aren't just sitting around like we are wondering about stuff. They are working on their tasks at hand. When they get home at night I am not seeing them let their mind wander to idle thoughts about the nature of magnetism because they have been thinking in engineer mode all day. Especially not when the establishment has bashed it's concept about the nature of magnetism into this engineer's head for him. To this engineer, all of this has been tested.
I read about an experiment a while back, and it basically goes like this: Researchers put fish into a fish tank, then took a sheet of glass and separated the two sides with it. The fish were kept to one side. At first the fish would bump up against it, then eventually got used to it. Then after a long while (I don't remember the actual length of time) the researchers removed the glass. The fish still never ventured over to the other side though! That isn't just fish nature, that is human nature too. The glass sheet is the barriers that we have gotten used to, and simply don't exist. You see people who are supposedly debunking this stuff do so without actually building the device they are debunking, yet they still have some sort of credibility.

Okay I have to back up a little now. All of the above COULD be going on. I haven't, and refuse to spend any time on it though since the task at hand is to come up with a working design for a magnet motor. If it doesn't work, obviously I'll eat my words (just as you have said) but if it does, I'll probably be supressed somehow. Here's hoping that isn't the case.

-P

Originally posted by postings

First of all, what in sam-hill does "puz" mean? I know I am exposing my ignorance, but I guess that was a trend that passed me by.

Anyway, to answer your fair question, I have a few of my own. What would happen if a doctor all of a sudden started making the claim that flue shots are bad for you? How do you think that would affect her relationship with her close colegues? Do you think they'd want to associate themselves with her after that?
So lets assume that the good doctor cared what her colegues thought of her. Don't you think she'd have second thoughts about it? Not even that though, wouldn't you think she has enough things to do on a daily basis than have to chase down concepts that people would look down on her for anyway?
Isn't there incentive for the establishment to propetuate a culture of anti-quackery in order to maintain it's legitimacy? What I am getting at here is that those engineers aren't just sitting around like we are wondering about stuff. They are working on their tasks at hand. When they get home at night I am not seeing them let their mind wander to idle thoughts about the nature of magnetism because they have been thinking in engineer mode all day. Especially not when the establishment has bashed it's concept about the nature of magnetism into this engineer's head for him. To this engineer, all of this has been tested.
I read about an experiment a while back, and it basically goes like this: Researchers put fish into a fish tank, then took a sheet of glass and separated the two sides with it. The fish were kept to one side. At first the fish would bump up against it, then eventually got used to it. Then after a long while (I don't remember the actual length of time) the researchers removed the glass. The fish still never ventured over to the other side though! That isn't just fish nature, that is human nature too. The glass sheet is the barriers that we have gotten used to, and simply don't exist. You see people who are supposedly debunking this stuff do so without actually building the device they are debunking, yet they still have some sort of credibility.

Okay I have to back up a little now. All of the above COULD be going on. I haven't, and refuse to spend any time on it though since the task at hand is to come up with a working design for a magnet motor. If it doesn't work, obviously I'll eat my words (just as you have said) but if it does, I'll probably be supressed somehow. Here's hoping that isn't the case.

-P

firstly puz is a smiley, it should have appeared as an image.

Secondly, do you think engineers are stupid? If an engineer found a way to make maglev trains run forever with only magnets do you think he would care what other engineers thought about him once he had patented the idea and was making millions off it?
If any engineer finds a way of doing something more simply they don't hide it, they let everyone know and get the credit, there is no 'engineering-police' going around making sure innovative engineers aren't letting the truth slip about the latest cold fusion reactors.

Thirdly, theoretical physicists get payed to dream up theories that might lead to improved power sources, are you suggesting that ever since Maxwell no one has built a device like the one you are suggesting and found that it doesn't work? The example of the goldfish bowl is nice, the only problem is that the goldfish live inside the bowl, you can't remove the bowl and have the fish still survive, its the same for humans and physical laws.

Originally posted by postings
Anyway, to answer your fair question, I have a few of my own. What would happen if a doctor all of a sudden started making the claim that flue shots are bad for you?

That would really depend on whether she had any evidence to back up her claims or not. If a Dr could show, with solid evidence, that the flu shot was bad for her patients then she could write papers in medical journals and if her evidence stood up under scrutiny she could get it removed from the market. This does happen.

What I am getting at here is that those engineers aren't just sitting around like we are wondering about stuff.

Cutting edge engineering firms (such as the ones that design maglev systems) will employ designers to do exactly that. How do you think companies come up with new designs?? The design fairy? Certain engineers will be employed purely to think of ways of improving the effeciency of the system - don't you think they might have noticed that simply lining some magnets up might get them over 100% effeciency?

I read about an experiment a while back, and it basically goes like this: Researchers put fish into a fish tank, then took a sheet of glass and separated the two sides with it. The fish were kept to one side. At first the fish would bump up against it, then eventually got used to it. Then after a long while (I don't remember the actual length of time) the researchers removed the glass. The fish still never ventured over to the other side though! That isn't just fish nature, that is human nature too.

And that is why fish are swimming in tanks in people's dining rooms and humans are travelling by maglev. Last I heard not too many fish worked as engineers or scientists.

Originally posted by cmdrpaddy
firstly puz is a smiley, it should have appeared as an image.

The example of the goldfish bowl is nice, the only problem is that the goldfish live inside the bowl, you can't remove the bowl and have the fish still survive, its the same for humans and physical laws.

Sorry if that was confusing, I meant to say that they removed the glass barrier. Thanks for the puz explanation also.

-P

Well I think I have done and said all I can for the detractors. They have a right to their opinions so I guess I will just leave it alone for now. I am really curious about a question I posed earlier though, and wanted to see if any of you had thoughts about it. Assuming there was such a thing as magnetic monopoles (again humor me) would you -- skeptic or not -- be able to design a working magnetic motor (magnet motor in the sense we have been discussing that can run until the magnetic field dies out).

-P

Originally posted by postings
Assuming there was such a thing as magnetic monopoles (again humor me) would you -- skeptic or not -- be able to design a working magnetic motor (magnet motor in the sense we have been discussing that can run until the magnetic field dies out).
-P

Interesting question and...I don't know...maybe. It might be the case that creating one would use more energy than you would generate from the device, therefore the law of conservation of energy would still be maintained. Not sure anyone could answer it properly, as nobody has ever discovered one yet. Apparently these guys have tried:

physicsweb.org...

Instead of searching for magnetic monopoles in real space, Yoshinori Tokura of the National Institute of Advanced Industrial Science and Technology (AIST) in Tsukuba and co-workers turned to momentum space - the mathematical space in which condensed matter physicists construct Fermi surfaces, Brillouin zones and so on. The team was motivated by recent theoretical work which suggested that the behaviour of magnetic monopoles in momentum space is closely related to the anomalous Hall effect.

I've no idea what the hell momentum space is though, sounds pretty specialist, and is purely theorectical.

The Wiki article on magnetic monopoles is quite good:

en.wikipedia.org...

Apparently according to some theories they could exist, but it might be in very strange extreme places, like black holes....

FatherLukeDuke,

I was trying to agree with you. A magnet will not create a positive net gain.

And yes I realize that I was having to give initial energy to my magnet.

So in other words you were right , and I was wrong. But I had a great time messing with magnets !


[edit on 16-12-2005 by lost_shaman]

Originally posted by lost_shaman
FatherLukeDuke,

I was trying to agree with you. A magnet will not create a positive net gain.
[edit on 16-12-2005 by lost_shaman]

Sorry, I didn't realise what you were saying. Glad you enjoyed messing with magnets - I remember building a crude electric motor, quite a few years ago now, and it was very satisfiying when I actually got the thing to turn after applying a current. There is something slightly magical about magnets and their affects.

New to scene...

To me it seems that magnets are a form of natural antennas collecting external power (forces) might be scalar/cosmic/ect. so using magnet power does not break your precious law of thermodinamics because you may not be adding expensive refined energy (60hz. plugin) you are using unrefined (in the human eye) energy... you may say we should go to jail for stealing power from mother nature and say it is a felony if we don't pay the electric company for $500 USD worth of mother natures free energy.
free energy in my eyes is collecting an energy from a cheap force (the cheaper the better).
As in the case of AM crystal radio it may not be free energy..... its a free to me energy. I just have to refine it to a usable form.

Originally posted by doorbell
New to scene...

To me it seems that magnets are a form of natural antennas collecting external power (forces) might be scalar/cosmic/ect.

And these "forces" are? Scalar? Your magnet is an antenna for "single nubers"! Dont quite understand that one. Perhaps you meant solar. Which cosmic force or power is atrracted to a magnet? Which etc. force do you mean? What evidence do you have to support your statement that magnets are "Cosmic" antennas? What does this have to do with building an un-buildable machine?

Originally posted by The Block

Originally posted by doorbell
New to scene...

To me it seems that magnets are a form of natural antennas collecting external power (forces) might be scalar/cosmic/ect.

And these "forces" are? Scalar? Your magnet is an antenna for "single nubers"! Dont quite understand that one. Perhaps you meant solar. Which cosmic force or power is atrracted to a magnet? Which etc. force do you mean? What evidence do you have to support your statement that magnets are "Cosmic" antennas?

In other words... photosynthisis for metals. using whatever it might be solar/ scalar(google Tom Beardon's recearch)/ cosmic. There is some outside force or fuel powering a magnet as it does not burn itself up (loose weight) to create magnatism. I do not know the exact energy transfer here and the someone with the proper physics degree could say the exact term for the power.

What does this have to do with building an un-buildable machine?

improbable, unlikely but NEVER impposible. That to me is why we are here to share data. A magnet itself is a free energy machine just like the sun, I'm sure the first person who heard that building a photovoltaic cell thought it was a pipe dream.


[edit on 21-12-2005 by doorbell]