Proof Of God's Existence !

I would like to start this thread by first saying that I am not basing this topic of discussion on my own personal feelings or rationalizations.

I hope that you take the time to read this before automatically closing this thread. Please take the time to have an open mind and turn on the science and reality part of the brain and enjoy.

After, feel free to comment and bring up other proofs of His existence that you may have found or if you feel that any of the select few, out of thousands examples of scientific proof don’t hold up in your opinion, I would like to hear your points of view as well.

The Anthropic Principle points out that there are over one hundred variables to this universe, that would have made life as we know it impossible, if they were even slightly different. This Universe had to be finely tuned to the conditions that make the evolution of life possible. Could this have happened by chance? Consider the following analogy.

If you went down the street and saw a quarter on the sidewalk, you would think, naturally, "someone dropped a quarter." If you went down the street and saw a handful of quarters on the sidewalk, you would think, "Someone had a big hole in their pockets, or dropped a roll of quarters."

But if you went down the street and saw one hundred quarters on the sidewalk, and they were all carefully balanced precariously on their edges, you would have to think somebody did this deliberately." The Universe as we know it, is that carefully balanced. This theory is known as the Strong Anthropic Principle. The only other possibility other than that this Universe was created, is that there are so MANY universes, that the equivalent of one hundred quarters falling out of someone's pocket and ALL of them ending up balanced on their edges occurred, completely by random chance. This theory is known as the, "Weak Anthropic Principle. So if you are a rational thinker here are your only two choices. Believe this Universe was created, or that there are multitudes of universes.

The Blind Watchmaker may have started out blind, some universe somewhere some when, but He/She/It evolved eyes right along with the rest of Life, and you can be quite sure, He/She/It will do whatever is necessary to guarantee His/Her/Its own development and continued survival, just the same as any other Life Form would. God does not play dice. He plays poker, and He continually stacks the deck in His favor!

I think that we can all have some common ground if we look at science and physics when we are trying to establish the proof and existence of GOD.

Let’s look at these scientific analogies: To name just a few of the finely tuned variables that are mentioned in the books, "God The Evidence," by Patrick Glynn, John Leslie, in "Universes," and from George Greenstein's "The Symbiotic Universe." as quoted by the web site at
userweb.nashville.com...

"If the difference in mass between a proton and a neutron were not exactly as it is--roughly twice the mass of an electron then all neutrons would have become protons are vice versa. Say goodby, to chemistry as we know it, and to life." Leslie, pp 34-40

"The very nature of water--so vital to life--is something of a mystery. Unique among the molecules, water is lighter in its solid form than its liquid form: Ice floats. If it did not, the oceans would freeze from the bottom up and earth would now be covered with solid ice. This property in turn is traceable to unique properties of the hydrogen atom." Leslie ,p 30 quoting Barrow and Tipler, 143- 144, 524-541. Cf. Denys Wilkinson, Our Universes (New York: Columbia University Press, 1991), pp 171-172.

"The synthesis of carbon--the vital core of all organic molecules--on a significant scale involves what scientists view as an astonishing coincidence in the ratio of the strong force to electromagnetism This ratio makes it possible for carbon-12 to reach an excited state of exactly 7.65 MeV at the temperature typical of the center of stars, which creates a resonance involving helium-4,, beryllium-8 and carbon- 12-- allowing the necessary binding to take place during a tiny window of opportunity 10-17 seconds long." Wilkinson, pp. 181-183; see also John Gribbon and Martin Rees, Cosmic Coincidences (New York: Bantam, 1989 pp.243-247.

"A remarkable feature of the Universe is its emptiness. Stars are extraordinarily distant from one another. However, were it not for these vast reaches of empty space, violent collisions between stars would be too frequent as to render the universe uninhabitable. The yet more frequent near-misses would detach planets from orbit about their suns, flinging them off into interstellar space where they would quickly cool to hundreds of degrees below zero." Greenstein's the Symbiotic Universe as quoted by userweb.nashville.com...

THE GAIA AND HYPER-GAIA HYPOTHESES

The Gaia Hypothesis states that all the life forms on the planet Earth work together to keep the planet life-bearing. There is much evidence for this. The heat output of the Sun has changed much down through the ages, and yet the temperature of our planet has maintained the narrow range necessary to maintain Life.

The level of atmospheric gasses has also remained, for the most part, a steady constant despite changing conditions. This is extremely important. If there were not enough oxygen in the atmosphere, fauna would die. If there were too much oxygen and not enough carbon dioxide and methane, plants would die and the atmosphere would be so flammable, fires would overrun the Earth.

Too much of both oxygen and carbon dioxide would also be fatal. But a third gas, methane, (produced by termites and digestion ), is just abundant enough to keep the oxygen and carbon dioxide levels in check.

Some kind of biological feedback system must be working, to keep all this balanced. As of yet, there is no evidence Gaia is sentient, but She is biological. I strongly suspect that any sufficiently advanced Gaia would evolve into Sentience.

I propose that the term, "Supernatural." does not mean, "antinatural." God is as natural a Being as any other life form. I propose as Teilhard De Chardin did, that if the evolutionary process really is so strong, that Humans and Whales can evolve from pond scum in just five billion or so years, God is perfectly capable of evolving in ten billion or so years. The pond scum did not even know where it was going, and it had no will. We at least have a vague idea of where we are going, and we have the desire.

Here is a perfect example of the evolutionary process: Gospel of John chapter 15:1: 1"I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinegrower. 2He removes every branch in me that bears no fruit. Every branch that bears fruit he prunes to make it bear more fruit. 3 You have already been cleansed by the word that I have spoken to you. 4Abide in me as I abide in you. Just as the branch cannot bear fruit by itself unless it abides in the vine, neither can you unless you abide in me. 5I am the vine, you are the branches. Those who abide in me and I in them bear much fruit because apart from me you can do nothing. 6Whoever does not abide in me is thrown away like a branch and withers; such branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned. This is a perfect description of any kind of guided evolution, whether it is being guided by God, Humankind, or even pure natural selection. Life forms (the vine) breed. The ones that God/Humankind/natural selection, want to continue to live, survive. The rest are "pruned" (destroyed). Then the remaining branches continue to grow and bud (reproduce), and these buds are pruned, thus shaping those Life forms in the direction that God/Humankind/natural selection wants them to go. The Life forms (branches), that God/Humankind/natural selection, don't want to reproduce are "thrown away" and they "wither," (fail to survive and reproduce)

The pressure to survive will make this evolution necessary. The Universe we live in will not last forever. And when it dies you can be sure Life will not peacefully roll over and play dead. That is not the nature of Life. So Life will, "grow into the Head which is Christ," (Ephesians 4:15), in order to survive the end of this Universe, (if we haven't already done it sooner). Life will either have to find or make another Universe, a, "new Heavens and a new Earth," or repair this one. Either way we can't do it at our present level of development. Life will have to grow into Christ, just to survive.

Why not Buddha instead of Christ? Read their words. It should be obvious to anyone, Buddha doesn't want the job, Jesus Christ does.

Maybe in a way, the Kingdom of Heaven, is a cosmic democracy. Whatever the Man from Galilee was originally in some alternate time line, long extinct, Humankind, or Hyper-Gaia has chosen to make Him evolving Humanity's Head, and He has been given all the skills and powers necessary to hold down the job.

Once Christ exists, He will expand to fill all of time and space plus every part of all the other dimensions Quantum Physics has discovered. It is the normal nature of Life to overflow whatever container its kept in. Once Life escapes from the time/space bubble, it is no trick to reenter it again at any point. This is how a Being whose Body is made up of us, (1 Corinthians 12:27), can make the Universe that evolved Him. the Universe is a warm starry nest in which god raises himself, for the earth is a kind of egg. THE LORD CREATES THE UNIVERSE EVOLVES THE LORD. OUTSIDE THE TIME SPACE BUBBLE GOD IS CHANGELESS. INSIDE THE TIME SPACE BUBBLE WE GROW INTO GOD.

As Ephesians 4:10 says, "He who descended is Himself, also who descended far above the Heavens so that He might fill all things."

You can also be sure when it comes to the creation of the Universe, and the evolution of Life, Christ continually, "stacks the deck" to guarantee His permanent existence. Besides the proof of this the Anthropic Principle provides, the laws of biology teach us that survival of the fittest favors a nurturing God. A God who did not multiply enormously and nurture His "children" would be selected against by the natural laws of evolution.

Mother sea turtles abandon their eggs. Mother alligators guard theirs. Sea turtles are very endangered. Alligators are prospering. We can be sure Christ did not, "wind up the Universe," and abandon it, as some Deists claim. He is too smart for that. He sticks around to guard His, "nest." That is why prayer has been proved to affectorganic tissue in double blind experiments.

But He must not remove all suffering. Molly-coddling would weaken us, and thus Him. Death must occur so there is room for evolution. Suffering must occur so we may learn compassion for our fellow, "cells of God." It is more important that we learn love and compassion than any other lesson we could possibly learn. Without love and compassion we cannot evolve into He Who Is Love.

MORE PROOF An ecological niche is the part of an ecological system that a particular life form occupies. There are predator niches, prey niches, plant niches, etc. Ecological niches tend not to stay empty, For example on the Galapagos Islands, the ecological nice of, "woodpecker" was empty. So a little bird called the, "Darwin's Finch" moved in and took that niche. We can be sure if the ecological niche of , "Christ," really was empty for some reason some Life Form would move in to fill the empty niche. As a friend of mine admitted, "There is probably a waiting line."

Lets remember that we are not here to discuss conspiracies of Christianity or anything else that bothers you personally about God, Christ, Religion, Hypocracy etc……

Lets talk the scientific proof of Gods existence !

Have fun !



Thanks to:
Copyright 2003 Elizabeth Hensley.
Other References :
Symbiotic Universe." as quoted by the web site at
userweb.nashville.com...

"Greenstein's The Symbiotic Universe as quoted by
userweb.nashville.com...

More about the Gaia Hypothesis at

www.gaianet.fsbusiness.co.uk...

www.magna.com.au...




[edit on 5-12-2005 by John bull 1]

Hey i just wanted to say that this was a great post it is true that many scientists and philosophers have been unable to dispose of god's existance. I actually have a friend currently working on his PhD in Philosophy who thought he could prove that there was no God. Well three years into his undergraduate work he's convinced of god presence and has started a good relationship with god. Anyway it is my belief that science exists because of god he has given us the ability to find the ways of the universe he wants us to find the secrets of the universe and when all have been discovered that's when things will change.

Plus the math gets pretty damn convincing when the 'odds' of a non created universe are so......astronomical...

.
How Did the Universe Begin?



Smallest animal - the single cell has how many parts? Are not all necessary for life of the creature?


Then evolution is junk................adaptation however......

I agree, this was a good post. I am not sure humans will ever be able to prove absolutely the existence of God while in the mortal state. The reason I say this is that it goes against the Bible's teaching that faith is required for salvaltion. Of course you know that faith is believing in what you can't see. In this case, it not only applies to our own salvation, but the belief in the existence of Jesus and the Father (God). If God was proven to exist, then faith would no longer be required, because we would be able to believe in something that we have proof of and not something that we can't see.

Also, when the Bible talks of Jesus' death and refers to the veil being lifted between the Holy place and the Most Holy place of the temple, it was alluding to the time of death when we would no longer need faith in God, but would be able to see him and the Kingdom of Heaven. Before this, only the priests who were clean were allowed to enter inside the most Holy part of the temple and commune with God - others would die if they attempted it (so says the Bible).

I think science shows that it is highly probable of an intelligent creation and it wasn't mere chance, but as long there is a chance that it could happen, it remains circumstancial evidence of God; unfotunately.

Like your analogy of finding a quarter on the ground, it only proves that it was likely that someone dropped it. It doesn't, however, prove of the nature of the person who dropped it, or if they created the quarter or any of the circumstances behind it. It could have even been dropped by a crow who likes to collect shiny metal objects, for example.

So why not have Multitudes of Universes, ALL of which are "Designed"?

Massive paralell processing to seek the answer to the Question: "?"

As I recall, the Bible opens with "In the begining was the Word...", but it has been left to humans (as far as we humans know) to determine just what that Word was was.

Forgive me if I'm being obtuse, I've spent far more time on this board than I ever thought I would, and this particular thread is just the kind of intregueing postulation to get me to"wax metaphoric"!

My thoughts, in a nutshell (which could well be an apt description for my skull!):

We need look no further for proof of "God"'s existence than the mere fact that we many posit the question of such existence in the first place. Sentience necessitates existence; if a thing does not exist it cannot exist as a sentience. One of the prerequisites of sentience is self-awareness. If as our science has shown, we are made up of the same "stuff" as the rest of the Universe, and we are sentient (if only, occassionally, intelligent), then by asking "Is there a God", we are actually the Universe itself (or, -selves), asking "Do I exist?"

"...And the Lord made Man in His Own image...."

Without ego and in no way am I trying to be blasphemous toward anyone's beliefs, but that statement to me says "That which is Sentient, is in its ultimate Essence, God".

That's an interesting and well thought out post but are you saying that the universe is exclusively a Christian universe. All religions have there creation myths and parables many of which dovetail remarkably well with what science is now discovering, it's been noted that some aspects of quantum physics are couched in terms which read much like eastern, Christian and Khabbala mysticism.

I don't think Buddah didn't want the job so much as he urged mankind to get past the illusory world of matter (maya) and earthly attachment in order to progress spirtually.

This proves, to me at least, that God is a playfuly creative God and strictly nodenomonational.

Anthropic PRINCIPLE, is hardly proof my friend, you try to explain god in words. You should know that is utterly impossible. All you proved to me is how narrow this particular scope of reality is. Quantum metaphysics explains just as well the unique connections of the universe, and it has a tendancy to raise more questions than it does answers, like for instance; do we even exist, or does anything truly exist. Separate god from the physical world, because if he is anywhere he is in another dimension that we cannot even fathom as humans. You factor probablility, but you fail to recognize that the unverse is infintely large. There is no known boundary of the unverse, Therfore if possibilty is infinite then anything is possible. You impose limits on your function, when it involves infinity, probability goes away when dealing with that which is infinite. Things exist outside your realm of perception, that is a universal truth, therefore why do you struggle to explain that which cannot be explained, or needs no explanation?

The unverse is dictated by a gentle vibration of waves, and predicted by numbers, and probablilites. The reason water behaves the way it does, is because it has to to obey the laws of physics and dynamics. As well as the rest of the physical universe. Everything that operates functionally in the unverse, such as our solar system operates on a delicate balance. Everything balanced is functional and will continue to function. IUn this aspect matter will seek the most stable energy state, like water flowing down because of the potential energy due to gravity (m*g*(h2-h1)). Everything in nature is Physically balanced, or else it fails.

The anicient greeks used balance as a beatuy standard, and they believed that god was in everything that is balanced. This is represented in architecture and art. The eastern philosophy leans toward the belief that god is within all of us and everything around us, he is the unversal harmony, that sustains complex systems.

God created ALL things in his image, us humans are so selfish thinking that god made you so much more special that the trees or the animals. Did he give you a big brain, is that it, even though we don't even know how to use it. Truth is god gave you distraction, addiction, and other difficulties, you must overcome them to see...There is divinity in everything around you, you are connected to all the matter in the unverse, some people know how to "see" this, and you don't use your eyes that's for sure. Therefore god should look like a combination of everything around you. How is that possible you ask...well I guess you all just haven't learned how to see it...

Believe what you will, it makes no difference to me, as long as your religion doesn't come in contact with my rights.


[edit on 30-5-2005 by Eyeofhorus]

Exactly how I argument !

Scientists probably say most of the time,"You can't really see God so he doesn't exist." I say you have wind but you can't see it either!

Repose to Eyeofhorus.

Great reply accept that you are telling me things that I already know and I have mathematical formulas including the laws of probability as well as comparing the natural laws of physics. Whatever the topic ? creation of the universe, creation of man, noahs ark, evolution, dinosaurs or whatever ?But for most people it would be way above their heads. Thats why I only included a few out of thousands of examples.

If you would like to talk about (specifics) I would glady take the time to do this. But from your context of philosophy throughout, including your last comment below, I am sure that it wouldn't do any good, because no matter what (scientific) proof we have, you have already made a decision in your own mind that God and Christianity is not for you therfore you will not beleive.

"Believe what you will, it makes no difference to me, as long as your religion doesn't come in contact with my rights. "

It's sad to see that ones own (pride and phylosophy ?? ) can keep them from seeing the Truth !

Originally posted by Eyeofhorus
Anthropic PRINCIPLE, is hardly proof my friend, you try to explain god in words. You should know that is utterly impossible. All you proved to me is how narrow this particular scope of reality is. "

Like I said there is much more that I didn't take the time to explain:

I am also not sure what you meant by " Trying to explain God through words ? I wasn't aware that I was doing this anywhere through out the thread ?

Quantum metaphysics explains just as well the unique connections of the universe, and it has a tendancy to raise more questions than it does answers, like for instance; do we even exist, or does anything truly exist.

Since when is metaphysics an answer to anything let alone quantam metaphysics ?

Did you know that this is nothing more than philosophy ??????

"Separate god from the physical world, because if he is anywhere he is in another dimension that we cannot even fathom as humans. "

This is NOT the case. You cannot remove God from the physical, becuse his proof of existence is everywhere around us. As far as HIM being or living or residing, He is in fact IN another dimension like you said that we cannot fathum.

"You factor probablility, but you fail to recognize that the unverse is infintely large. "

Are you then questioning " Is God big enough to handle this ?" God is infinite !

"There is no known boundary of the unverse, Therfore if possibilty is infinite then anything is possible. "

True I do agree !

"Things exist outside your realm of perception, that is a universal truth, therefore why do you struggle to explain that which cannot be explained, or needs no explanation?"

Apparently to you, it does need proof and an explanation and I am just planting a seed of curiosity not proving all of the facts. I have read numerous books just on this subject for quit a few years by well known scientits, physicisists, and mathmeticians, and it only strengthens my beleif in God because there is NO other valid answer ? All of the other theories do not hold any water what so ever !

"The unverse is dictated by a gentle vibration of waves, and predicted by numbers, and probablilites. The reason water behaves the way it does, is because it has to to obey the laws of physics and dynamics. As well as the rest of the physical universe. "

And whom do you think created these laws of physics and dynamics ? Why do they all correlate ? Do you realize that if one law of physics was turned sideays or supside down that all of the other laws of physics would not apply ? It is and was (by Grand Design) by someone or something. Things just do not fall into place as they have. Not even one item, such as the example the sun. Do you know that if the sun was not on the exact course set forth we would not exist ? Or none of the other planets would be able to stay on course becuse of the new gravitational pull that the sun and earth implemented ? It gets much more involved and I have we have science and technology to prove it.


Everything that operates functionally in the unverse, such as our solar system operates on a delicate balance.

Of course it does ! That's what makes it a thousand times more intricate. It could not have all happend by accident. Not in anyones (intellegent) mind (unless it's just closed or they have decided to beleive in their own philosphy) once they take the step to Deny the Ignorance and look at (all the supporting facts completely) that they could come up with any other conclusion except for Grand Design. But if you do not take the time or have a closed mind or believe in a philosophy you will never discover the truth.

Gods laws are not bound by human philosophy !


"The anicient greeks used balance as a beatuy standard, and they believed that god was in everything that is balanced.

Then they beleived that God is in everything ! Because everything is balanced. If it wasn't, it would not exist in the first place.

"God created ALL things in his image, us humans are so selfish thinking that god made you so much more special that the trees or the animals. "

I agree, Everything is very complex and special ! But God did give humans a spirit and conscience which no other creation has. So he did in fact take special interest with our design. Why did He do this ?

"Did he give you a big brain, is that it, even though we don't even know how to use it. "

As a matter of fact the human brain is very different from any other because of its dynamics of complexity that carries along with it, Feelings and Emotions. On top of that God actually gave us (our brain ) the FREE WILL to either believe in Him or not. He didn't give this to even the animals.

God created humans this way ( Intellegent ) So that we could have a relationship with Him. This was the whole reason for the creation of humans. So yes I do feel that we as humans are very special. God himself said so, so why shouldn't I believe this ?

"Truth is god gave you distraction, addiction, and other difficulties, you must overcome them to see..."

Not true- God did not give us a spirit of addiction, distraction and difficulties or any other disease for that matter. This is not the nature of God !

We as humans have brought this onto oursleves but that is another one of Gods many laws which you would havew to research to understand.

Satan came to steal , kill and destroy and God came to give life !!

"There is divinity in everything around you, you are connected to all the matter in the unverse, some people know how to "see" this, and you don't use your eyes that's for sure.

Actually I have a better and deaper understanding of this than you do, due to the only fact that what you just said is in the bible and I happen to read the bible.

"Believe what you will, it makes no difference to me, as long as your religion doesn't come in contact with my rights. "

Here again the philosophy comes out and not the intellegence.

I am not sure how poeple have made a decison to beleive in anything without looking at the supporting facts on BOTH SIDES OF THE FENCE which you obviously haven't ??

Don't worry ! The facts of Grand Design have nothing to do with your rights.
And neither does my religion !!!

If in fact you do have an open mind and are willing to look at the supporting facts I can recommend some excellent books to read to get the total picture of Grand Design ( Creation vs Evolution ) because I have not really even touched on this.

Evolution is what it is, a theory ONLY. A theory that is getting debunked daily by the evidence and technology that we as humans are discovering with the help of God.

Fourteen solid years in the RCC, plus many independent projects on religion. I think you underestimate me.

You say that it isn't worth arguing to convince me, but I really think that you hold on to your belief, and chose to accept someone else’s views of god, and not your own.

I have read the bible, and I made a conscious decision to take an indefinite hiatus from the church to find myself spiritually. I never looked back.

In fact your post, although it seemed to start off non-judgmental, ended up being somewhat of a lecture, based on the bible as a resource. The bible is not a research text, nor is it absolute in any manner.

You seem to act and think that you know god personally, yet you seem to bastardize his image to fit your perceptions, and not a universal perspective like I view it. So I ask, how did you come to the conclusion that my viewpoint was somehow the more narrow minded of the two?

It's sad to see that ones own (pride and philosophy ?? ) can keep them from seeing the Truth !

Ack! Pride? I find that truly offensive to blame my religious views on pride. For shame, apparently pride has blinded you. You basically call me ignorant to my face, because YOU refuse to see things MY way or acknowledge my side of the argument (I'm not trying to convert you, I could care less if you find true salvation or not), and rather than listen to my post and contemplate it, you immediately began going to work on dissecting it piece by piece, thinking only of what you were going to say next. Who says that you have the "truth" and if it were tru whay isn't it widely accepted as unversal truth? This appars to be the same kind of "truth" that got us into the war with Iraq.

We are united by our belief in that which cannot be proven beyond the shadow of a doubt. So how come all of the sudden your religion, which hasn’t even been around as long as eastern religion and philosophy (BTW, the eastern religion makes no deviation between religion and philosophy) So basically by attacking the philosophy I used you are attacking my religion, without any source to back up what you are saying. If you have all the answers to the universe, why are you posting this on a discussion bard? You ask for opinions, but when you get them, you immediately tear them apart. So do me a favor, don’t ask for my opinion if you aren’t going to listen. That is called wasting my time.

You pretend like you are walking on eggshells, but you are in fact stomping them out.

Anthropic principle (principle-belief, opinion, theory.) still des not justify proof that god as you view him exists.

Too much of both oxygen and carbon dioxide would also be fatal. But a third gas, methane, (produced by termites and digestion ), is just abundant enough to keep the oxygen and carbon dioxide levels in check.

There is actually more nitrogen in the atmosphere than co2 or oxygen. Methane is actually quite caustic and can kill at high levels.

[edit on 31-5-2005 by Eyeofhorus]

[edit on 31-5-2005 by Eyeofhorus]

[edit on 31-5-2005 by Eyeofhorus]

There may be a God .But it doesent take a God to have created a universe.
A saying I like ( Take a infinit number of monkeys and a infinit number of word prossers and excistence could be writen into.
What this realy means is that if the universe is all about probilitys then it has to be there . ( The funny thing is this says even God or Gods Have to be there.) if water has to excist in such a state to work then it does excist in that state some ware . PS there are different forms of water by the way and they Dont ack like water does here on earth. Luckly this other water is rare of earth or we would be in trouble.
(cant rember excatly what is different about this water but I think it pertains to the number of atoms making it up.
Anyway regurdless as to if a God created the unvirse or not religions view of the universe is to narrow and relgions view on life its self is even narrower.
Just think on this . Occording to most relgions you eather die and go to heaven ForEVER or you die get brought back to life at some point and live Forever . Well eather of these views is very short sited .
lets start with living forever after your brought back to life.
well now first off having KIDS is out it will be a earth of Old people getting older . Whats the point In living if you can never have children ?
ever go into one of thous places old people are ? notice how even the healthy ones are sitting quitly . By the time most people are 80 they have doen most of everthing they have wanted to do in life and have nothing new they want to learn or talk about. And THIS is after just 80 years.
Of corse the consept of heaven is just the same except there you aren physcal .
Forever has anyone even considered even once just what this means?
Not 100 years or a 1000 or a million or trillion . Forever is just that FOREVER .
try to immange living for 5000 years after the first 1000 you have studyed and learned EVERTHING known to man you have trillions of $$$ and never need to work again there hasent been a childes giggels heard for 990 years . So now what do you do with the next 4000 years? Drive a saner man then me mad. And again heaven is no different then this .
Tell me what I should belive if you want . But my question to you is Tell me just what it is were going to be doing in heaven in a billion years .
Bet you cant . you say the streets of heaven are paved in Gold I say so what Gold becomes worthless Given a heaven full of it.I would immange In a Golden heaven a guy would pay through the noise for a blade of grass.
A billion years humm. No thanks no HUMAN could excist that long without going MAD and if you take away what makes me human in order for me not to go MAD then thats even worse.
The best part Of my life is watching and helping my kids grow and when they are growen then watching my grand kids grow will be it.
Heaven takes that away and never ending life on earth takes that away.
so tell me what are you going to do for a billion years Id realy like to know.

Originally posted by Simcity4Rushour
PS there are different forms of water by the way and they Dont ack like water does here on earth. Luckly this other water is rare of earth or we would be in trouble.
(cant rember excatly what is different about this water but I think it pertains to the number of atoms making it up.

I think you are talking about "heavy" water, which is a molecule of water with two duterium atoms (hydrogen isotopes), it produces a visible reaction when a neutrino hits it, creating a cone of energy released in the form of light...It must be extracted in a complicated process, because it occurs so rarely in nature on our planet, but then there might be an entire planet covered with heavy water.

from www.sno.phy.queensu.ca...
Heavy water is chemically the same as regular (light) water, but with the two hydrogen atoms (as in H2O) replaced with deuterium atoms (hence the symbol D2O). Deuterium is an isotope of hydrogen; it has one extra neutron. Thus the deutrium atom consists of one proton and one neutron in the atomic nucleus and one orbiting electron. It is the extra neutron that makes heavy water "heavy", about 10% heavier in fact.

Moving on...

O.P. by Simcity…
Occording (*according?) to most relgions you eather die and go to heaven ForEVER or you die get brought back to life at some point and live Forever . Well eather of these views is very short sited .

I believe you are simply trying to understand something that you cannot. Once your soul has reached the precipice of infinity, through meditation or whatever, the body and soul will be converted to pure energy, thus dispersing back into everything around it in the form of an EMP. This is the only way I can describe enlightenment in layman’s terms. There will be no concept of time or space in the next phase of reality, upon which a new spiritual journey begins, like nothing you have ever seen. The body will be ready to die, because the soul is ready to move on to bigger and better things.

How can anyone know what lies beyond, it is impossible to see it without inevitably succumbing to death in our physical world. Why do you think that time will still exist without your BODY’s perceptions of time? And why would you need a body once you have achieved enlightenment? Would you not agree, that by becoming an immortal soul, time would cease to have all meaning? Is it true then that the soul is able to manipulate time, upon release from the flesh prision that is was implanted in?

O.P. by simcity…
ever go into one of thous places old people are ? notice how even the healthy ones are sitting quitly . By the time most people are 80 they have doen most of everthing they have wanted to do in life and have nothing new they want to learn or talk about. And THIS is after just 80 years.
Of corse the consept of heaven is just the same except there you aren physical…

So why then do you propose that “heaven” has physical characteristics, like a body, or time, or space. Let me ask you this…If heaven were a place within our comprehension. Would it not be possible to find it in our universe, with the right technology? Ha! No way…”Heaven”, if it does exist, logically lies outside the realm of usual human perception. And I guarantee that these elderly people have plenty of time to contemplate their own deaths, rather than be with the ones they love. Sounds like torture to me, and I’m sure that these people have regret too. Regret, like maybe re-evaluating your spirituality on your deathbed. Someone who believes what I do, would learn to live without regret, and thus without sin. Thus breaking all ties to the physical.

O.P. by simcity…
Bet you cant . you say the streets of heaven are paved in Gold I say so what Gold becomes worthless Given a heaven full of it.I would immange In a Golden heaven a guy would pay through the noise for a blade of grass.

Couldn’t have put it better myself, gold would have no value in heaven, therefore it would be worth the same thing as, say a pile of worthless rocks, or a plant, or an animal, etc. It would be as a spiritual equal, along with all matter in the universe. You would become everything at once, if that makes any sense.

O.P by simcity…
A billion years humm. No thanks no HUMAN could excist that long without going MAD and if you take away what makes me human...

In another life, a hundred years might be played out to what feels like the length of one day. Once your soul reaches this universal equilibrium, it will be one with the universe, and thus you will be one with your former self…the soul that is “trapped inside my body.”



[edit on 31-5-2005 by Eyeofhorus]

[edit on 31-5-2005 by Eyeofhorus]

I’m responding to the original post and I apologize if I end up repeating any points.

I hope that you take the time to read this before automatically closing this thread. Please take the time to have an open mind and turn on the science and reality part of the brain and enjoy.

Before reading further I can see that you have a biased outcome in mind, which you will to prove by weeding out specific examples that fit into this model. This is clearly an inversion of causes. It's rather like arguing after you win the lottery that "because" you won the lottery, you didn't need the winning ticket.

And when the atheist descanted on the unceasing motion and circulation of matter thro' the animal vegetable and mineral kingdoms, never resting, never annihilated, always changing form, and under all forms gifted with the power of reproduction; the Theist pointing `to the heavens above, and to the earth beneath, and to the waters under the earth,'asked if these did not proclaim a first cause, possessing intelligence and power; power in the production, and intelligence in the design and constant preservation of the system; urged the palpable existence of final causes, that the eye was made to see, and the ear to hear, and not that we see because we have eyes, and hear because we have ears; an answer obvious to the senses, as that of walking across the room was to the philosopher demonstrating the nonexistence of motion
--Thomas Jefferson

Ok now on to Anthropic principle. I believe that the Anthropic principle is just a major "cop-out". Its like saying "I dnot want to work so hard because this problem is eluding me…so why don’t I just conjure up the Anthropic principle and everything's fine and dandy" Praise the lord!
Again without falling into “inversion of causes” trap try to think of life as fitting into the sorroundings rather than the sorroundings fitting into our needs for survival. There are countless organisms that survive in the hostile conditions of the earth’s core feeding on sulphur, under intense pressure and heat. If these buggers can do it, Im sure life in general can find a way to tap energy if the physics of this galaxy was different. Whats the big deal?

If the universe is indeed spatially infinite, or if there are infinitely many universes, there would probably be large regions somewhere that started out in a smooth and uniform manner. It is a bit like the well-known horde of monkeys hammering away on typewriters--most of what they writer will be garbage, but very occasionally by pure chance they will type out one of Shakespeare's sonnets. Similarly, in the case of the universe, could it be that we are living in a region that just happens by chance to be smooth and uniform? At first sight this might seem improbable, because such smooth regions would be heavily outnumbered by chaotic and irregular regions. However, suppose that only in the smooth regions were galaxies and stars formed and were conditions right for the development of complicated self-replicating organisms like ourselves who were capable of asking the question: Why is the universe so smooth? This is an example of the application of what is known as the anthropic principle, which can be paraphhrased as "We see the universe the way it is because we exist".
—Stephen Hawking from A Brief History Of Time

We’re just a tiny fart if we look at the galaxy as a whole. This egocentrism that has infected the human race, trying to convince folks that the universe was designed with us in mind is just pathetic!
P.S. I think that the title of your thread is misleading. This is just a really far cry from the proof of anything.

Good call Isis, glad to hear someone out there still can see through this anthropic nonsesnse.

The title "proof that god exists" is a very misleading title, especially when I opened the post and found no conclusive proof of anything, except that anthropic principle is not proof that god exists.

Originally posted by Eyeofhorus
Good call Isis, glad to hear someone out there still can see through this anthropic nonsesnse.

Thanks pardnah. You know its just a human fascination with order and patterns. Chaos doesnt interest us as much as order does. When things work nicely we tend to pay more attention to it.

Originally posted by Truthisoutthere
And whom do you think created these laws of physics and dynamics?

This is analogous to little ants thinking that each sand particle is so ornately designed JUST for them to build little hills.
The laws always existed.

Do you realize that if one law of physics was turned sideays or supside down that all of the other laws of physics would not apply?

Did you realize that if you breathe orange juice instead of air you die? The wonder!!! By the way, there are places in this universe where our laws seem to fall apart.

Do you know that if the sun was not on the exact course set forth we would not exist ? Or none of the other planets would be able to stay on course becuse of the new gravitational pull that the sun and earth implemented ? It gets much more involved and I have we have science and technology to prove it.

Consider this: 1.3 million earths can fit into the sun, and the sun is just one of the 400 billion of stars out in our milky way, a galaxy which spans for a hundred thousand light-years, a galaxy which is one of a hundred billion galaxies detected (and the number keeps getting bigger) Now can you see how pathetic this egocentrism really sounds?

You know everytime I think about our universe and its astounding size and beauty, everytime I imagine the black holes and the giant galaxies and stuff I’m filled with awe ….and then I look at people whose lives revolve around fables and fantasies I cant help but feel a sense of pity…
Id like to listen to your more involved proofs. I’m always up for learning.


[edit on 31-5-2005 by I_s_i_s]I cant spell

[edit on 31-5-2005 by I_s_i_s]

It will always surprise me how so many people say God does NOT exist, yet present no proof, no proof has ever been presented that GOD does NOT exist, yet ... the same people that have NO proof that GOd does NOT exist have the nerve to ridicule, criticize , mock, those who Believe that God DOES EXIST....

reality is , Believer is GOD exist in many forms of religion, and they all have their "holy books", wich they believ was given to them by their GOD. is that proof of God's existance???...well..lets just say ...at least believers have MORE to stand on, that non-believers ...whose only claim is "GOD DOESNT EXIST BECAUSE I SAY SO".

Originally posted by BaastetNoir


It will always surprise me how so many people say God does NOT exist, yet present no proof, no proof has ever been presented that GOD does NOT exist, yet ... the same people that have NO proof that GOd does NOT exist have the nerve to ridicule, criticize , mock, those who Believe that God DOES EXIST....

I may claim that god doesn't exist, but I dont ever say "look I found PROOF, that god doesn't exist." and then give only speculation and thoeries. I make the point that I refuse to believe in that which I cannot see, it helps me stay sane mostly.

reality is , Believer is GOD exist in many forms of religion, and they all have their "holy books", wich they believ was given to them by their GOD. is that proof of God's existance???...well..lets just say ...at least believers have MORE to stand on, that non-believers ...whose only claim is "GOD DOESNT EXIST BECAUSE I SAY SO".

How come people don't get as angry when people say "santa is not real?" It is because most of us grew up and realized that our beilef in santa was unfounded to begin with. If we all at one time believed in santa claus because we were too neive, who's to say we aren't just being misled by the person who started thses religions? It is the questioning of beliefs that we claim are fact, that contributes to our knowledge. Don't be so quick to overanalyze what others are saying on these boards. Admitting that beliefs may be wrong, is a common trait of the free thinker, and the truly knowledgable.


A child's view of santa claus hid the truth that his parents were perpetuating th myth of santa. Does your view of god hide the truth from you? Is the organization you are involved in perpetuating a myth, that hides the truth?

Don't take this to mean I am bad-mouthing your religion, I am merely asking you to question your beliefs. If you arrive at the same conclusion you did before, then what's the problem, And if you find some intriegueing information that makes you question the very basis of your religion, maybe you are on to something...

[edit on 31-5-2005 by Eyeofhorus]

Originally posted by BaastetNoir


It will always surprise me how so many people say God does NOT exist, yet present no proof, no proof has ever been presented that GOD does NOT exist, yet ... the same people that have NO proof that GOd does NOT exist have the nerve to ridicule, criticize , mock, those who Believe that God DOES EXIST....

I can understand your frustration. The reason why we need proof for god is because we havent seen or heard or felt God. If we measure everything in scientific terms why make an exception for this mystical god?
Besides..given that most people cant see god the proof of burden lies on the people that claim he/she/it exists. Simple as that.
As far as i'm concerned personally, I couldnt care less. Whether god exists or not is completely irrelevant to me. If we find that he/she/it exists...No problemo...if he doesnt ...same.

I understand wjhat you guys are saying. I believe God exists, but i dont belong to any religion ... hmmm its almost like ...i know the winde exists because i feel it and i see it working... and the same is with GOD...i cant see him, but i can feel him and soemtimes see him at work.

How come people don't get as angry when people say "santa is not real?" It is because most of us grew up and realized that our beilef in santa was unfounded to begin with. If we all at one time believed in santa claus because we were too neive, who's to say we aren't just being misled by the person who started thses religions? It is the questioning of beliefs that we claim are fact, that contributes to our knowledge. Don't be so quick to overanalyze what others are saying on these boards. Admitting that beliefs may be wrong, is a common trait of the free thinker, and the truly knowledgable.


A child's view of santa claus hid the truth that his parents were perpetuating th myth of santa. Does your view of god hide the truth from you? Is the organization you are involved in perpetuating a myth, that hides the truth?

Well as to SANTA, i cant stand the guy...lol...there is something about a guy coming in my house in the quiete of the night and leaving me gifts that sounds like stalking ...lol

Actually my background was Catholic and my mother always told me that the Christmas gifts are given in the name of BaBy Jesus just like theWise Man gave gifts when he was born.

In fact i can not understand how 95 % or more of Christinas nowadays,claim to follow Jesus, and than turn around and on the day that they are suppose to celebrate the birth of their savoir they GIVE ALL ATENTION TO SANTA ......so much for purity when you even lie to your own chrildren at the "birth date " of the Savior